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Old 11-12-2020, 06:08 PM   #1
KillerBMotorsport
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Default It's time for a FEEL - Extreme Flow HARD Turbo Inlet by Killer B Motorsport

Included Features:

Designed and Made in the USA

Made from Heat Treated Cast Aluminum

includes Coupler for OEM or 3" Compressor Inlet

Does not require removal of Intake Manifold

Includes Fittings for OEM and Aftermarket Vacuum options

Looks Terrific!



So I've always been skeptical of the 'hard' turbo inlet, but a tuner friend always used to tell me 'the hard inlets make best power'. Having used Silicone inlets (and been happy with the results) since ~2007 I had generally been happy with the gains from the silicone inlets. Assuming hard inlets likely couldn't produce more than a couple HP and were definitely NOT with the effort that's required to install them. Ignorance is bliss!

Fast forward many years and I finally get around to scanning an OEM turbo inlet and chipping away at a design. We got a couple of hard inlets in, and went through the install to see if they were as horrible as I remembered hearing about, and they were. Made some design tweaks so our version installs at least as easily as the silicone units and even got decent results from the sim. Yay!

Most decent aftermarket silicone inlets are in the $180-$260 price range. The cheap ones I've seen are not note worthy because they are just crap and customers that are shopping for cheapest price are not looking for our stuff anyway. I've not finalized production pricing, but we'd likely be in the $299 and up to $399 if you wanted to add a fancy heat reflective ceramic coating.

The million dollar question here... is the hard inlet we would produce, worth the price of admission? That is the question I am asking for your feedback on.

Here is some data from Flow Bench testing. OEM vs Silicone Competitor vs Killer B



Dyno plot from a stage 1 STi. Will have more date on a higher HP application soon, but according to the SIM and Flow Bench, the improvements will scale up with flow/power level.

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Old 11-12-2020, 06:36 PM   #2
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Following...
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:55 PM   #3
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Your statement about who buys your products reminds me of 100$ Fourmula 1 hats. Way too much for a hat but they sell a **** ton of them.

Is the B for Bernie E?
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Old 11-12-2020, 09:58 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by benflynn View Post
Your statement about who buys your products reminds me of 100$ Fourmula 1 hats. Way too much for a hat but they sell a **** ton of them.

Is the B for Bernie E?
That's true. No the B is not for Burnie
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Old 11-13-2020, 06:35 AM   #5
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Interested. Following
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Old 11-13-2020, 07:21 AM   #6
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Man I wish you would have come out with this a little sooner! I'm pretty much at full bolt-ons and motor is about to go back in. Would have been nice to put it on while motor is out.
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Old 11-13-2020, 07:36 AM   #7
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Just curious, what makes a hard turbo inlet tube flow a little better than a silicone one?

I'm still running the oem turbo inlet, depending on final price point I would be in.

Very cool.
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Old 11-13-2020, 08:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Zak6182 View Post
Man I wish you would have come out with this a little sooner! I'm pretty much at full bolt-ons and motor is about to go back in. Would have been nice to put it on while motor is out.
Sorry we missed you on this one

Quote:
Originally Posted by heiche View Post
Just curious, what makes a hard turbo inlet tube flow a little better than a silicone one?

I'm still running the oem turbo inlet, depending on final price point I would be in.

Very cool.
That's a good question. Aside from the obvious observation of the cheap ones that collapse partially under vacuum, comparisons to the high end silicone versions seem pretty obvious.

The silicone units, being many-ply reinforced silicone, have a thick wall to maintain strength. Since there's only so much space available for the inlet, a thick wall means a reduced inside diameter, translating into less cross-section (flow capacity). Another obvious difference is that the silicone units have a sharper bend at the intake/filter end that is more likely to induce flow reducing turbulence. Some of the units have a hard coupler on the inlets ID where the intake hose attached, that further reduces the ID too.

The KBM unit's first bend is much less sharp. Being made from metal our wall thickness could be reduce, which means the inside diameter is increased. Also, since it's made from metal (and cast) the shape can be less round. So our unit has a larger ID at the initial bend, but the shape transitions to square and triangular as you get closer to the turbo, eventually going back to round. It's very subtle and tough to see unless you start taking bore measurements. I did this to maintain at least the same cross sectional area as the inlet's diameter, but in all honesty, I doubt it adds up to much vs just reducing the inside diameter some to still get clearance under the intake manifold. More my design anal retentiveness at work, lol.
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Old 11-13-2020, 09:49 AM   #9
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Great explanation, thanks! You've got a great brand/reputation.

If you manage to keep price low-ish, I'm guessing you'll move a lot of these! (including my order)
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Old 11-13-2020, 10:11 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Sorry we missed you on this one

When they come out maybe I'll do a back to back dyno against the Cobb I'm running. When is the expected release date?
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Old 11-13-2020, 10:22 AM   #11
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Great explanation, thanks! You've got a great brand/reputation.

If you manage to keep price low-ish, I'm guessing you'll move a lot of these! (including my order)
No problem. Going to try and hit $299 but that may be +/- ~$20 depending on final details.

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When they come out maybe I'll do a back to back dyno against the Cobb I'm running. When is the expected release date?
No release date yet, as we're just feeling out if there's demand. The tooling cost alone is +$30,000 so we want to be sure there is enough demand to at least cover our costs.
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Old 11-13-2020, 10:45 AM   #12
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Oh man, $30K in tooling!!! I know it's a little more complicated than 300 units to break even but will there be enough demand for at least that amount?

This is why quality parts are expensive and why folks need to just move along when they don't like the price.

Also, are there concerns with chafing against the Intake Manifold?
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Old 11-13-2020, 11:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Most decent aftermarket silicone inlets are in the $180-$260 price range. The cheap ones I've seen are not note worthy because they are just crap and customers that are shopping for cheapest price are not looking for our stuff anyway. I've not finalized production pricing, but we'd likely be in the $299 and up to $399 if you wanted to add a fancy heat reflective ceramic coating.



The million dollar question here... is the hard inlet we would produce, worth the price of admission? That is the question I am asking for your feedback on.
This is a loaded question.

Keep it close to the price point of some of (what you'd perhaps consider) the best silicone inlets and people would probably flock to your product. For example, Banks Power produces what I consider far superior products to the competition he targets all at a price point that is very close to his competition and people flock to his stuff.

$299 is a bit of a pass for me especially since what I currently have benefits me 99% of what your inlet claims to give me. Granted, this price is factoring in a +30-35% currency conversion...plus shipping and other stupid border fees.

I'm a firm believer in "you get what you pay for". That being said, there is a certain tip over point where paying that higher price tag also feels like you're paying a bit for a label or for a certain amount of status among your peers, especially when there's a product that is perhaps 90% as good as yours for a much lower price, which in this case you've indicated to a degree that the competition produces impressive results. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand a business' need for profit as it's how you keep going but there's some products you produce that I scratch my head at the price tag.
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Old 11-13-2020, 11:39 AM   #14
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+1 on interest...the install alone will be much easier than the silicone...can you add threaded insert to make the BOV hole sealable without affecting air flow?
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Old 11-13-2020, 12:23 PM   #15
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One time I asked why something cost 20% more but was only marginally better. The response - the last 10% of perfection cost 20% more to achieve. That has stuck with me, but in the end something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it and I think that's the question KB is asking here. Are enough people willing to pay for that last 10% of perfection?

I think most people would like to see what gains can be had with 300-400+ whp. To me this seems to be where you get more bang for your buck based off percent increase in hp. With all the smart people on here someone should be able to run some numbers based off the increase in HP we see from the baseline to the KB inlet. Could you then apply that to our own hp numbers and see a ballpark of hp increase?

I took a shot at it but I am no mathematician and ended up with a 20hp gain at 400hp. Seems high for just an inlet.

Last edited by Zak6182; 11-13-2020 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 11-13-2020, 03:44 PM   #16
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Also, are there concerns with chafing against the Intake Manifold?
The first version I made was SNUG. It would fit, but it was making contact on things. A few design changes and it goes in much easier. After pulling one out now, it doesn't look like it's been chewed on by a Rottweiler

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Originally Posted by viper_crazy View Post
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand a business' need for profit as it's how you keep going but there's some products you produce that I scratch my head at the price tag.
Sounds like a great goal, but if we priced according to that we'd be out of business. You can't make 321 headers for $700 and we can't make a turbo inlet for the same price of a Silicone version made overseas. I believe the only other hard Subaru inlet is made overseas, you need to remove the manifold to install, AND has fitment issues on top of that.

Is ease of install and not having to modify the product/components around it worth anything? Maybe to some?

I think you're right about the 90% factor, but I also think that's going to be for the stage 2 customers more than the turbo kit guys. Obviously as power goes up, so too do the difference in the products performance gains. In the scope of buying a handful of bolt-ons for a stage X setup it might not make the budget, but for a 'build' that is in the realm of several thousands of dollars, an extra $100 may be worth knowing you're going to be getting best available and optimized performance from the finished product?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi03 View Post
+1 on interest...the install alone will be much easier than the silicone...can you add threaded insert to make the BOV hole sealable without affecting air flow?
I initially went that direction, but a boss for a threaded insert was going to start causing interference issues. A vacuum cap will work fine I suppose we could cut the port short and weld a cap on there, but that is not easily reversible.
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Old 11-13-2020, 05:41 PM   #17
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I've had a couple of hard inlets in the past. My DD has an APS that came with the car, and it fits reasonably well on my bugeye with stock TGVs (I had a chance to check it over when I pulled the manifold to do the fuel lines). I had previously tried an AMR inlet on my autox car - even with TGV deletes it simply would not fit, and I've had a Perrin inlet on there since. I wanted a hard inlet because there's no chance of it collapsing, So I'd be interested in a well designed unit since the APS isn't available any more (if I don't go rotated with the car first)

I assume if this fits the AVCS models, it should fit the non-AVCS models as well. The only thing I would suggest is making it compatible with all of the different power steering pumps/lines for the turbo EJs (02-present).
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Old 11-13-2020, 07:40 PM   #18
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think this would fit a FP turbo with 84mm inlet?
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Old 11-13-2020, 08:48 PM   #19
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think this would fit a FP turbo with 84mm inlet?
That is a 3.31" OD compressor inlet? Does no one make an offset coupler that size?

IIRC the older FPs used Garrett CHRAs which meant there was flexibility with compressor housings. That was many years ago though. I've never used an FP turbo.
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Old 11-13-2020, 09:37 PM   #20
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That's doubtful, but hey. That's only my opinion based on my fabrication experience and past material acquisition.

You do you. Keep on keepin on.
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Old 11-14-2020, 10:11 AM   #21
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The only thing I would suggest is making it compatible with all of the different power steering pumps/lines for the turbo EJs (02-present).
That's actually a good point. The design above looks like it does already account for that based on the indent near the PS pump. I think 08+ PS pumps (mostly) have the banjo fitting on the side as opposed to the top on pre-08 pumps. Chris, can you confirm?
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Old 11-14-2020, 12:14 PM   #22
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[[quote=KillerBMotorsport;46460399]
Is ease of install and not having to modify the product/components around it worth anything? Maybe to some?

Customer service, good install instructions and ease of install are factors I consider. I'd be willing to pay a little more for that, and I'd rather support a company that supports car enthusiasts with American made products.

I think you're right about the 90% factor, but I also think that's going to be for the stage 2 customers more than the turbo kit guys. Obviously as power goes up, so too do the difference in the products performance gains. In the scope of buying a handful of bolt-ons for a stage X setup it might not make the budget, but for a 'build' that is in the realm of several thousands of dollars, an extra $100 may be worth knowing you're going to be getting best available and optimized performance from the finished product?

I would agree with this and thats why I'm running your header. I'd rather buy once, cry once and have the best. If the inlet was out right now I'd have it bolted on already. The extra $100 it would cost is small in the grand scheme of things. Not a whole lot of difference between $5,000 and $5,100 for me. I hope there is enough demand for them I have the opportunity to get one.

I appreciate that you guys never stop innovating and its nice to see that when I spend money with you it help to produce more products. Keep up the good work!

[/QUOTE
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Old 11-14-2020, 04:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kenliu84 View Post
That's actually a good point. The design above looks like it does already account for that based on the indent near the PS pump. I think 08+ PS pumps (mostly) have the banjo fitting on the side as opposed to the top on pre-08 pumps. Chris, can you confirm?
Good question, and we need to verify his.

I can say for certain that I followed, as closely as possible, the path near the outer edge on the OEM unit, in that area, knowing the pump is one of fitment constraints and concerns. Like you observed, the indent is intended to provide similar to OEM fitment. Although, we only have the units installed on VA cars so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak6182 View Post
I appreciate that you guys never stop innovating and its nice to see that when I spend money with you it help to produce more products. Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much for using our products and your support!

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Old 11-14-2020, 10:50 PM   #24
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I see a need and this is one of the main reasons why I have an OG metal APS on teh wagon. Metal don't squish. And they are cake to install. Drop PS pump down and it slides right in with near zero drama. Sadly, kids these days don't know the APS name as they were the pinnacle back in the day but their business model and distributors killed them.

I don't know silicone pricing, but maybe see if you can add optional FP sizes for a few more customers. Their odd inlet sizing is the only reason I didn't get an FP turbo last time as I didn't want to pay for their special inlet. So if you could look into how much a special run of your outlet size to FP 84mm turbo inlet, it might be worth your time if a run of say 50 isn't too bad. Heck...you might holler at Robert Young about co-branding some so you and he could sell "FP hard inlets".

I vote pricing should be Tree Fiddy, moAr for special coatings. T-bolt clamps for +$10 or whatever they cost these days.
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Old 11-15-2020, 01:53 AM   #25
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I trust metal as a better solution. I trust your design abilities. If you build it around the indicated price point I see no reason to not be a buyer.
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