ETS rotated Kit on IAG/TiC Block

[BlackFighter]

Hey guys,

So since I sold my 04 STi, I'm back to building a 05 STi track car. This car will be very light street us/track car only. The tracks I race on will be circuit tracks, not drag, not drift, no autox, no rally. So there will be high speed turns, and braking. One track I will be on is Summit Point in WV.

I am looking for 450-550 whp with a built IAG/TiC block and heads, ETS 4" FMIC or Perrin 3.5" FMIC and a ETS or Perrin rotated turbo kit.

I would like any opinions on the ETS/Perrin rotated kit and if anyone is using one on their track cars? I would like to get a opinion from TiC and Killer B and see what they use but will probably be better off PMing them.

How does the ETS kit compare to the Perrin, and the Killer B spoolinator (not rotated I know) kits?

Is the ETS really worth the $4500 price tag?

Also this might be hard to ask help for but from the 12 turbo choices which would be best for a tracks like Summit Point. I know in the end it has to be what I like and how the eng is built. Looking for full boost at 4k. Also im leaning towered the V band, any reason why i should consider 2 or 3 bolt kit?

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[Scuby04STi]

I know you specifically mention the ETS kit, however I also see you comparing with the Perrin. That being said its hard to beat the Perrin for cost/quality ratio.

I have been running the Perrin parts for YEARS, been very satisfied with everything. I run their header, rotated kit and fmic core. Car makes good usable power that lends very well to circuit tracks, makes peak tq between 4,000-4,500rpm on pump gas (gen 1 gtx3076 .82) it holds power well into the 8,000+ range. My e85 map is geared towards just upper rpm power, we rolled it on later just because it never sees less then 5k rpm for its purpose.

If you are going to push things get EVERYTHING coated!!! I can't tell how many "track builds" skip something that plays such a big roll in temp management.

If you intent to drive hard with 500+ whp you are going to need to be very focused on brakes and cooling of them!!! I only use a 420whp tune on circuit tracks and it is at the limits of what the oem sized braks can handle for longer stints and thats on a car thats 2800lbs fully wet.

Hope that helps, sorry for the brake lecture but you need to stop at somepoint. Lol

[BlackFighter]

Thanks for the post, yes any info is grateful. I have used lots of Perrin stuff on my 04 STi so I am happy with their quality. That is why it doesn't make sense to pay $4500 for a kit that does the same as half the price of other kits. What's soo amazing about ETS for the price tag to be so high.

I am the kind of person who likes to put the best or almost best parts on my project cars, but $4500 for a turbo that cost $1500 and $3000 for a downpipe and some piping does not compute. Prove me wrong.

Wrong forum but what is the max the stock brambo calipers and withstand? Will upgrade rotors, pads, lines, fluid.

My 04 STI was 420-450 WHP and to be honest that was enough power for me. I'm shooting for 500-550whp built so I can push the piss out of it at 450-475whp and not worrie about it.

[sifl]

I have a 2009 STI with a built TiC motor. Closed deck, head work, cams, etc...

I have the Killer B header, and I went with the ETS rotated piping kit and ETS front mount intercooler.

I have Gen 2 GTX3076R, with the .83 housing, v-band connection. The Killer B header is a two bolt connection to the ETS piping.

This is only a track car now, though it is tame enough to drive on the streets. It's kind of obvious on the streets, with a gutted interior, and the exterior has some aero elements.

On E85, it's around 580 hp/tq. I haven't had any issues with the car on track, except for braking. I didn't upgrade the brakes or put in brake ducts until after a few events. Per the other poster, that was a mistake.

Every exhaust component and all of the charge piping is coated.

Power is fully available at 4500, and the redline is 8500, though I don't rev it out.

I have autocrossed it, and that was way too manic. With the original transmission, shifting was nearly constant.

[BlackFighter]

To be honest I would rather go with Dave from Rallispec or TiC over IAG block, but the warranty is tempting because I will have the shop Prime install it and have JR tune it.

I have a 2009 STI with a built TiC motor.

Did you go with stg 2 street or stg 2 track?

[GK1707]

Originally Posted by BlackFighter

To be honest I would rather go with Dave from Rallispec or TiC over IAG block, but the warranty is tempting because I will have the shop Prime install it and have JR tune it.



Did you go with stg 2 street or stg 2 track?

Is the Rallispec warranty only applicable if they install the motor? I've only heard good things about their blocks.

[sifl]

The TiC package was called the Beefy Badger two years ago when I made my purchase. It looks like their current Stage 2 track package. The upgrade I selected was for the closed deck.

A warranty is a good idea. I did get one from TiC.

[BlackFighter]

I had Dave from RalliSpec build my block and rebuild my tranny with longer gear ratio back on my 04 STi and it ran solid till the day I sold her. But RalliSpec do not offer any warranty. I only IAG offers the warranty, but again that warranty is crap. It onl covers if the assembly was poor. RalliSpec and TiC will make sure that assembly is on point with no need of warranty.

The more im thinking about it, the more im leaning towered having Dave build me another block and upgrade the gears in the 05 STi for longer gears like i did on my 04.

A warranty is a good idea. I did get one from TiC.

What, whaaaaa? TiC offers warrenty? Do they have to do the install? I live in Philly so Prime and Ralli Spec the the two closes to me that I trust.

[motorbykemike]

Sending you a pm

[sifl]

This is the info I received and confirmed at the time:

Warranty coverage extends to only the portions assembled by Turn in Concepts

***61623; Warranty coverage on engines/short blocks is offered for 12 months/12k miles (whichever comes first) from the date of purchase

***61623; Short block warranty is limited to the short block itself and does not cover any incidental items such as heads, turbo, accessories, gaskets, or labor to assemble or install these items.

***61623; Warranty coverage is offered only on short blocks that are professionally installed as per our installation guidelines

***61623; Evidence/records of proper maintenance per the maintenance guidelines listed above are required and the responsibility of the owner

***61623; Warranty coverage extends only to the original purchaser of the engine

I had the short block installed locally following the instructions TiC provided. I kept records of all race events, data capture and maintenance for the whole year, and TiC said that was sufficient in case of an issue. There was no issue.

About a year later, I had TiC do the head work and install the ETS kit since I brought the car to their shop for a custom tune. Again, I kept records of all race events, data capture and maintenance for the year. Again, no issue.

Their work has been great for me, and the warranty is nice. It's even better that I haven't had to use the warranty.

[BlackFighter]

Mike, i pmed back thanks.

sifl, i would love to have TiC work on the car but they are too far from me. When you say "data capture" what kind of data you were recording.

[sifl]

I use an Access Port to log the parameters that they asked for, and I keep the files in case they are needed. I installed the sensors and gauges that are common and keep notes as well as possible. I also change the oil at the required service intervals and I get it tested.

I've been able to visit TiC several times, but I also have a local shop do some work, and I do some of the work. It's been all the same to TiC as long as we adhere to the guidelines they provide. It hasn't been difficult: I'm also serious about taking care of my equipment for racing.

I would recommend you contact them and see if they're good with one of your local shops doing the work.

[Scuby04STi]

Originally Posted by BlackFighter

Thanks for the post, yes any info is grateful. I have used lots of Perrin stuff on my 04 STi so I am happy with their quality. That is why it doesn't make sense to pay $4500 for a kit that does the same as half the price of other kits. What's soo amazing about ETS for the price tag to be so high.

I am the kind of person who likes to put the best or almost best parts on my project cars, but $4500 for a turbo that cost $1500 and $3000 for a downpipe and some piping does not compute. Prove me wrong.

Wrong forum but what is the max the stock brambo calipers and withstand? Will upgrade rotors, pads, lines, fluid.

My 04 STI was 420-450 WHP and to be honest that was enough power for me. I'm shooting for 500-550whp built so I can push the piss out of it at 450-475whp and not worrie about it.

I run high temp fluid, ss lines, dba rotors and metallic pads. They work fine on my 420whp tune and they are left with their toung hanging out after a real track session but still hold up but like I said my car is on the light side. I haven't seen many STi's set up for a road course that are lighter. You will never get a solid cut off line on this.

My pump tune is [email protected] psi and e85 is at [email protected], I don't think I could push it on e85 without finding the point the brakes fall on their face. Already hit 150 on the main straight where I mostly run followed by a 2nd gear tight section. That starts to add up over time.

As for engine warranty and such I firmly believe in having a known local machine shop do EVERYTHING. Its just nice dropping a block of for work and looking the guy running the machinery in the eye as you go over the plan together. But thats just me.

On track you should always be logging basic parameters, never hurts.

[cboggess]

I can certainly chime in here in regards to all of this as I may have a little bit of experience here.

1) We have experience with both the Perrin and ETS kits. I like the ETS setup, but your concerns of cost are valid.

2) We also have experience of mixing and matching KillerB with other bits. No problem with doing that.

3) Cooling. Cooling is a HUGE issue and something that MUST be addressed on these cars. Especially if you're going to track it. Quite honestly, there is not such thing as too much cooling on these these cars when it comes to track work. Find me someone who says they are over-cooling an EJ and I'll you a steaming pile of BS. There just isn't enough packaging room to over-cool one of these cars. Granted such discussions take us a bit off topic.

4) Yes, TiC does provide a warranty. I want to be very clear here. On parts it does NOT extend any manufacturer warranty. It does and will cover craftsmanship of the assembly. Now, that may seem offputting, but I'm not making the bearings. I'm not making the rods. I'm not making the pistons. So I, and every single other engine assembler, has to rely upon well produced products, good suppliers, and attention to all details upon assembly. At the same time ones warranty can and should cover the portion upon which they are putting in the work, and that is the assembly.

You've been around the Subaru world long enough to recognize the good the bad and the ugly.

As for distance we have made arrangements to have a car shipped, when that isn't possible we've shipped full long blocks in a crate to customers (reusing their old heads, sourcing and refreshing used heads, or even starting with fresh parts).

Not to discount Vince - he does some amazingly nice work, but if you'd like to discuss working with TiC give us a ring or shoot us an email. We can have a nice chat about what you're looking for.

-Clint

[BlackFighter]

Clint, I actually was hoping you would pitch in, thank you. You never disappoint. I will deff be giving you a call. Name is Paul.

So my mad brain of mine want to use same manufacture. Perrin FMIC with Perrin rotated kit or a ETS rotated with ETS FMIC.

I like the cost of the Perrin turbo kit, but do not like the FMIC piping.

For ETS, I like the FMIC piping, but do not like the cost of the turbo kit.
,
Anyone think it would be a fitment/air flow issue with a Perrin turbo kit and a ETS FMIC, since the piping is different? I don't like how the Perrin charge piping to the intake mani goes right over the hot ass turbo.

As much as i want to do custom piping myself, Im no welder and don't have the skill set.

[JSR84]

Perhaps someone who actually has the Perrin kit could chime in, but I hear that it can be a huge PITA to install. I know some people have had issues installing their ETS kit, but mine went in quite easily. Also, the turbo seems to sit quite a bit deeper perhaps limiting size / compressor inlet. I'm honestly not sure, just thinking of some questions to ask yourself.

I will say the lack of directions with ETS products was a bit of a pain at first, but their customer service has been awesome.

[BlueSTI4Me]

Interested to see the direction this build takes down the road.

[Scuby04STi]

Originally Posted by JSR84

Perhaps someone who actually has the Perrin kit could chime in, but I hear that it can be a huge PITA to install. I know some people have had issues installing their ETS kit, but mine went in quite easily. Also, the turbo seems to sit quite a bit deeper perhaps limiting size / compressor inlet. I'm honestly not sure, just thinking of some questions to ask yourself.

I will say the lack of directions with ETS products was a bit of a pain at first, but their costumer service has been awesome.

I ran a PERRIN fmic kit, installed it myself just had to open up the hole for the intake to fit but I think that is part of the instructions (was a long time ago).

I ended up just making my own pipes eventually when I wanted to flip my intake and do way to many random clean up of the engine.

[BlackFighter]

I had a APS FMIC on my 04 sti, HTZ FP green, TGV del, fuel pump, etc... I did all the work myself so im not afraid of the install of parts.

Im trying to figure out which kits would be the best for a track car and would flow well with each other. Guess my main question now is, how well will the ETS FMIC work with the Perrin turbo kit.

[subaru_gc8]

Originally Posted by BlackFighter

I had a APS FMIC on my 04 sti, HTZ FP green, TGV del, fuel pump, etc... I did all the work myself so im not afraid of the install of parts.

Im trying to figure out which kits would be the best for a track car and would flow well with each other. Guess my main question now is, how well will the ETS FMIC work with the Perrin turbo kit.

I would think that it would depend on what you are flowing. as for a track day set up.
personally cause I dont have unlimited funds, 400 is enough for me but it is still pretty safe as far as not blowing the engine... but that is always something that you have to keep in the back of your mind when you push the engine for 20+ min.

going faster on the track is more about not slowing as much for the corners not going fast on the straights. I wold loose weight before I would go over the 400 mark.. but thats me

[BlackFighter]

going faster on the track is more about not slowing as much for the corners not going fast on the straights. I would loose weight before I would go over the 400 mark.. but thats me

Ya I was thinking of that as well, i was thinking keeping it around 450whp. Would like to know how many WHP TiC track car has.Making 450 safe is easy, im now concentrating more on brakes and cooling like Clint said.

Clint, im also having the gear ratio changed in the tranny for longer gears. I had that on my 04 sti and i liked it. What are your thoughts on that for a track car?

[sifl]

I was at the TiC website yesterday and saw a posting from Jackie Ding for the overview of Mike Aumick's race car. It's on YouTube.

The car is putting down 650 whp, now.

[subaru_gc8]

Originally Posted by BlackFighter

Ya I was thinking of that as well, i was thinking keeping it around 450whp. Would like to know how many WHP TiC track car has.Making 450 safe is easy, im now concentrating more on brakes and cooling like Clint said.

Clint, im also having the gear ratio changed in the tranny for longer gears. I had that on my 04 sti and i liked it. What are your thoughts on that for a track car?

Yeah but they are a shop that doesn't have to spend 5000 for a rebuild...450 is good. My buddy's porsche only has 260hp bug he is able to keep up with the modern cars....track driving is in the driver not the car

[Scuby04STi]

Originally Posted by BlackFighter

Ya I was thinking of that as well, i was thinking keeping it around 450whp. Would like to know how many WHP TiC track car has.Making 450 safe is easy, im now concentrating more on brakes and cooling like Clint said.

Clint, im also having the gear ratio changed in the tranny for longer gears. I had that on my 04 sti and i liked it. What are your thoughts on that for a track car?

Hold off on a gearing change until you use the car at the track/tracks you plan to go to.

You are going to want to see if the current ratios lend to the course or not. For a road course I prefer the tighter ratios, I only got longer gears in my 04 after having to shift into 5th everytime I would drag race.

If whats in the box now isnt stuck between gears on the turns don't swap them. If you have that issue then you might want to if the new ratio would solve the problem. For a purpose build road course car the tighest ratios you can use without leaving you "stuck between gears" is ideal.

[BlackFighter]

So after a lot of thinking and a big thanks to motorbykemike for spending 2 hours via phone on new years with me, my plan for the build had changed 180.

Hold off on a gearing change until you use the car at the track/tracks you plan to go to.

Yes, for the time being I will be keeping my tranny stock gear ratio. Will probably go with a de-stoker block and think I will end up using E85.

The de-stroker and E85 fuel is something new I didn't want to get my hand dirty with, but after talking to people, I think its the right way to go for a track car.

What do you guys think of this list Mike and I came up with.

De-stroked closed deck EJ block 450whp at first.
Treadstone FMIC
A GTX 3576 gen 2 or 3076 gen 2
Fuel will be 93 or E85 with a surge tank
Open source tuning or V3 AP
GSC stage 2 intake and stage 3 exhaust cams Or just stick with stage 2 for both.
Ferrea vales and springs
Ported heads

I am still stuck between the turbo kits. I think i have narrowed it down to a Perrin rotated kit or Killer B spoolinator.

Any thoughts on the Killer B? I really don't care if it is Rotated or stock location. Whatever is better for the track. Keep in mind, i do not have a shop, racing "team" or any sponsors, so this is a personal project which is a one man show. Besides the other guys who i have been talking to.