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Old Yesterday, 12:31 AM   #126
JustyWRC
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Quit cherry picking comments.

Edit... read my other posts. I'm I support of a CVT, provided Subaru can up their game. Other automatic offerings are undoubtedly faster than their manual counterparts, and in this segment (Golf R DCT is the only one I can think of) track ready. The sti is a track ready street car. Any auto they come out with needs to be track ready. I think it's telling that on that one perhaps track ready cvt wrx in Japan, they called it a wrx tuned by sti, not giving it the sti name.

Btw, why are the discussions in this thread and the sti thread seemingly backwards? Talking about utility in a sedan thread, and transmission in a levorg concept thread...
I agree. I do think WHEN the STI auto is released, it'll be ready enough.
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Old Yesterday, 09:39 AM   #127
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I still respectfully disagree with your statement. A performance car is not only defined by measurable metrics. After all, why would you buy a 40k STI when you could buy a mustang Gt which is likely faster in almost all metrics, and likely cheaper as well? Everyone has preferences, and every car has attributes, that aren't measurable in numbers.
compromise.
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Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM   #128
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I agree. I do think WHEN the STI auto is released, it'll be ready enough.
the subaru engineers are well aware that if they do put an automatic in the STI, it has to be able to handle the torque and heat it is putting out. A cvt cooler is mandatory and it has to be able to respond quickly to stepped and paddle shifts
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Old Yesterday, 11:46 AM   #129
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compromise.
This.
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Old Yesterday, 11:58 AM   #130
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compromise.
Not disagreeing with you, but you're missing the point. The compromise is made because of an immeasurable metric that makes one car "better" than the other.

No car can be defined as "better" or "superior" to everyone. You cannot look at one car, compare some stupid numbers, and say that the numbers are lower (or higher) and therefore that car is "better". That's the epitome of magazine racing. Feedback and driver engagement are two metrics that are arguably just as important as any other metric you can compare for a performance car, but not quantifiable in any way.

How about inclement weather driving? That one plays a role for a lot of drivers too and directly attributable to the performance of the car.

How about passenger layout? We're not talking about super cars here, we're talking about sedans/hatchbacks.
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Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM   #131
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The sedan/hatchback comparison kinda goes out the window when you bring the up the Mustang though. Then practicality and inclement weather come into play, enter the compromise cars like the STI.
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Old Yesterday, 12:18 PM   #132
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The sedan/hatchback comparison kinda goes out the window when you bring the up the Mustang though. Then practicality and inclement weather come into play, enter the compromise cars like the STI.
Sure, but I'd argue that the STI would have metrics showing that it's the "better" car by samagon's standards, not a compromise car, in inclement weather. Take the two cars around a track in the rain/snow and one will come out on top... Those are not numbers that are regularly tested and/or published, so again, immeasurable metrics that define what car is "better".

this discussion is dumb and I'm done. You guys can keep magazine racing if you want. Enjoy your rwd coupes.
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Old Yesterday, 12:30 PM   #133
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Track days in snow....
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Old Yesterday, 12:32 PM   #134
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Not disagreeing with you, but you're missing the point. The compromise is made because of an immeasurable metric that makes one car "better" than the other.

No car can be defined as "better" or "superior" to everyone. You cannot look at one car, compare some stupid numbers, and say that the numbers are lower (or higher) and therefore that car is "better".
but you can.

usually you compromise before you start bench racing though.

Everything that people use to compromise is measurable. If you don't understand someone else's choices I can't help you there, but it's all measurable.

For instance, 4 doors vs 2 doors is very measurable. The value I place on the number of doors is measurable by me. Someone else may not understand that.

fwd is absolutely measurable. The value I place on cars that have this is 0. it's measurable. You may not understand why I don't value FWD cars, but that doesn't make it not measurable.
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Old Yesterday, 12:48 PM   #135
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I agree with Samagon completely. We all have personal biases that are formed form our needs and wants in life. The things I want may not be the same as a single guy with no kids. Does not make my valuation of a car any more wrong or right. I have a set of metrics with my OWN person weights attached to each based on my life.

This is why I can cross shop a Ridgeline and a Buick TourX and a Stinger. Okay the stinger is a stretch, but by gosh I will go test drive one!
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Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM   #136
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the subaru engineers are well aware that if they do put an automatic in the STI, it has to be able to handle the torque and heat it is putting out. A cvt cooler is mandatory and it has to be able to respond quickly to stepped and paddle shifts
Or they mistake again and give us A-Line 2.0.

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Track days in snow....
Sure!!!

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Old Yesterday, 02:54 PM   #137
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fwd is absolutely measurable. The value I place on cars that have this is 0. it's measurable.
You're missing my point, so I'll make it more clear for you.

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He will literally never drive a performance car with a CVT whether it's better or not. In essence, he's willing to not only make life harder for himself, but drive a lesser performance vehicle because he's too proud to admit that he was wrong.
You claim that a car is a "lesser" car because it might have lower metrics than another, but fail to see that someone might value a manual transmission more than you do.

Saying one car is "better" than another is subjective. /story.

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Old Yesterday, 03:03 PM   #138
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To further my point above...

I'm looking at buying a Golf R soon. Assuming I do, it will have a manual transmission. In some metrics, it's "lesser" by your definition. However, in my eyes, performance cars are more defined by driver engagement than they are some stupid magazine racing number. My metrics are different than someone else's and the manual Golf R is the "better" car. So I'm not compromising by buying the "slower" but more engaging vehicle.

I think we're saying the same thing, but you seem to be stuck on calling one vehicle "lesser" and that puts you on a high horse.
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Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM   #139
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I agree with Samagon completely. We all have personal biases that are formed form our needs and wants in life. The things I want may not be the same as a single guy with no kids. Does not make my valuation of a car any more wrong or right. I have a set of metrics with my OWN person weights attached to each based on my life.

This is why I can cross shop a Ridgeline and a Buick TourX and a Stinger. Okay the stinger is a stretch, but by gosh I will go test drive one!
Honestly, I think we're all saying the same thing. Perhaps I'm too caught up on Samagon's terminology, but I'm fighting the fact that they stated a CVT car might be the "better" car and anything else would be accepting a "lesser" car instead of admitting someone was wrong. Their original statement is completely counter to what you're stating right now. My point all along is that a CVT might not be the "better" car for someone.
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Old Yesterday, 03:58 PM   #140
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I did not know this was a thing, I want it badly now that I see it! It's all of the fun of letting the STI loose on the flight line on the other side of my window without any of the jail time!
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Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM   #141
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You're missing my point, so I'll make it more clear for you.



You claim that a car is a "lesser" car because it might have lower metrics than another, but fail to see that someone might value a manual transmission more than you do.

Saying one car is "better" than another is subjective. /story.
for the same exact vehicle, when you get to that level of granularity, if you favor the slower variant because of driver feedback, then you aren't as interested in performance as you are in driver feedback.

classify it as compromising performance for driver feedback.

I think we're coming at the same problem from different directions and arguing over the method by which we got the same answer.
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Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM   #142
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for the same exact vehicle, when you get to that level of granularity, if you favor the slower variant because of driver feedback, then you aren't as interested in performance as you are in driver feedback.

classify it as compromising performance for driver feedback.

I think we're coming at the same problem from different directions and arguing over the method by which we got the same answer.
While I agree with your last line here, I still disagree with everything else.

I do not define a vehicle's performance solely by numbers. An automatic transition variant of a vehicle will never be "better" than a manual equivalent because like you value FWD as 0 (I do as well), automatics get a value of 0 for me. The only compromise in my eyes would be buying an automatic for the sake of numerical bragging rights.

My disagreement comes down to how you're defining a performance vehicle as being "better". And it appears it will stay that way. Enjoy your two pedals.
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Old Yesterday, 08:13 PM   #143
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Or they mistake again and give us A-Line 2.0.



Sure!!!

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A line 2.0 ?
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Old Yesterday, 08:24 PM   #144
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A line 2.0 ?

STI A-line was a detuned 5EAT.
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Old Today, 07:31 AM   #145
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STI A-line was a detuned 5EAT.
oh ok. It is very difficult to make a track car with a cvt. Even tuners see the limitations with increases in power. The 6 speed automatic in the brz seems to be the way to go. It is not limited like the cvt, and it can handle tunes and increases in power without worrying about the cvt chain. No more fear of tuning past stage 1 or 2. The cobb tunes ecu can adjust the rapid shifting the car will be doing, rather than overheating the cvt.
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Old Today, 09:50 AM   #146
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While I agree with your last line here, I still disagree with everything else.

I do not define a vehicle's performance solely by numbers. An automatic transition variant of a vehicle will never be "better" than a manual equivalent because like you value FWD as 0 (I do as well), automatics get a value of 0 for me. The only compromise in my eyes would be buying an automatic for the sake of numerical bragging rights.

My disagreement comes down to how you're defining a performance vehicle as being "better". And it appears it will stay that way. Enjoy your two pedals.
And that's fine, you don't have to agree with the commonly accepted definition of what a performance car is. You should acknowledge that most people are going to hold to the commonly accepted definition and therefore will argue with you, and while you won't agree, they'll be right.
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Old Today, 12:15 PM   #147
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And that's fine, you don't have to agree with the commonly accepted definition of what a performance car is. You should acknowledge that most people are going to hold to the commonly accepted definition and therefore will argue with you, and while you won't agree, they'll be right.
I think another aspect of this where we appear to differ, is that someone along the line defined this hopped up econobox as a performance car... yeah. right. This thread is about a WAGON (or maybe a hatch). These are compromised vehicles before you even start comparing magazine metrics.
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Old Today, 12:32 PM   #148
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I find this debate a bit ludicrous. You guys are at each others throats insulting each others personal likes and dislikes. I have news for you. You are both right. Your opinion cannot be wrong, as at the end of the day, if the owner of the car smiles as he walks away from his car then he made the right choice for him.

Any AWD car is compromised. RWD is the Alpha and Omega in speed around a circuit. It is provides the best feeling. Best feedback. Etc. Every car on the street is a compromise car.

The only cars that are not compromised are dedicated track cars (karts). They are made to do one thing at the expense of all else.

Daily driven performance cars are by their very nature compromised. But we like those compromises. We like AC, we like nice seats, we like power windows, and sat nav. None of those things help a car go faster.

dwf137 is right
Samagon is right
pre is right

Hell at times I am even right.

Stop getting hell bent on better betterer and betterest.

The RS is compromised
The STI is compromised
The Golf R is compromised
The M3 is compromised
THe Type R is compromised.

Damn, get over it. These are all street cars with side curtain air bags and back up cameras. Not one of them is a race car. None of you would want to daily drive a real race car as they are miserable places to be.
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Old Today, 01:10 PM   #149
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Golf clap for scrap
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