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Old 01-11-2021, 01:06 PM   #26
Cougar4
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The manual I am referring to shows that connector B141 is only a two row 12 pin connector so you must have something else. The data shows that the other end of connector F60 is connector F2 with mating connector B100. I assume that part is the same in your model. If so then the problem may be with pin 1 of that connector which has the BR color ground wire coming from the immobilizer. You should see less than 5 ohms to ground at the immobilizer ground connection. See if pins 2 and 3 go to ground.

My info shows the shield connector as B53, a black single row 12 pin connector, and is located near the top of the dash above the steering column. B83 is another connector.

I believe the Main Relay is controlled by the ECU which supplies power to the relay coil to energize it. I think some models control the ground for the coil through the ECU.
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Old 01-11-2021, 05:17 PM   #27
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The manual I am referring to shows that connector B141 is only a two row 12 pin connector so you must have something else. The data shows that the other end of connector F60 is connector F2 with mating connector B100. I assume that part is the same in your model. If so then the problem may be with pin 1 of that connector which has the BR color ground wire coming from the immobilizer. You should see less than 5 ohms to ground at the immobilizer ground connection. See if pins 2 and 3 go to ground.

My info shows the shield connector as B53, a black single row 12 pin connector, and is located near the top of the dash above the steering column. B83 is another connector.

I believe the Main Relay is controlled by the ECU which supplies power to the relay coil to energize it. I think some models control the ground for the coil through the ECU.
Yes all is correct but my manual for LHD turbo sti model 2005 shows B100-F2 a 24 pin connector. Dual row connector (black in color)

And I've verified it's the correct connector by checking continuity to pin 16 at F60 with connector unplugged at both ends. F60-B100.

With everything plugged in and hooked up and back probing B100 or the grounds at data plug I still show 60ohm resistance up until the main relay shuts down. That's what has got my attention at this point. (The main relay). Not sure if that's normal. I think it isn't but idk for sure. I'd assume it's not since the manual says it wants to see less then 10ohms resistance.
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Old 01-12-2021, 11:46 AM   #28
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You seem to state you get 60 ohms to ground until the main relay turns off. Are you trying to check resistance while power is turned on? If you are, you can't do resistance testing that way. You would need to check for a voltage drop on the ground lead to see if there is a problem with the grounding when power is on and current is flowing. A good ground should no voltage drop on it when current is flowing.

What is the resistance reading you get using a known good ground point (like the negative battery post or other proven good reference ground point) and the ground pins going to the immobilizer connector while the ignition is OFF?

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Old 01-14-2021, 11:55 PM   #29
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So I hooked everything back,up because I was tired of not hearing my car run.

Still running crappy. Goes to stall when I rev and let off gas. If I hold rpm steady @2k or even 3k it bounces around rpm going up and down about 200rpm. Afr correction bounces from -25 to +25 during this.. correction is steady 0 if I let it idle.

When I unplug green plug on alternator its runs nearly perfect. Swapped another alternator same deal.

I came across a thread guy had same issue on his wrx and ended up being his fuel pump controller. Anyone know the ohm ratings on corresponding terminals for the controller? Dont wanna waste money on parts wothout knowing its really bad.. I do not have a lot of cash at all.
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Old 01-15-2021, 05:22 AM   #30
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Check the AC ripple voltage of the alternator output lead while the engine is running around 1,500 RPM. If things are good you should see less than .1 volts AC. If you have more then both alternator most likely have some bad diodes inside them.

I assume you checked the resistance to ground of the immobilizer grounds and saw less than 10 ohms on the leads.
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Old 01-15-2021, 12:25 PM   #31
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Check the AC ripple voltage of the alternator output lead while the engine is running around 1,500 RPM. If things are good you should see less than .1 volts AC. If you have more then both alternator most likely have some bad diodes inside them.

I assume you checked the resistance to ground of the immobilizer grounds and saw less than 10 ohms on the leads.
I did just recently check that and it was like .03 checked again same. And I'll check resistance again at data plug was getting same resistance there as at immobilizer. With it running the resistance jumps from 80ohm to 300ohm. Engine off key on its .08ohm once main relay shuts down. That main relay takes like 1 minute to shut down.

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Old 01-15-2021, 05:44 PM   #32
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Making a resistance reading on an energized circuit IS MEANINGLESS. If the immobilizer ground lead is less than 1 ohm with everything OFF that is all you need to do to check the condition of the ground connection to the immobilizer. If there is something going on with the immobilizer circuit it isn't due to a ground issue and you are chasing your tail if you think there is a problem because the resistance reading changes when you have things energized. I assume that the Main Relay operation is controlled by the ECU and the cutoff may take place after the ECU goes into the sleep mode. I don't know that for sure but suspect that is the case. I don't think that is an issue.

If the engine runs rough while the alternator is working but runs smooth while the alternator is disabled it may indicate there is a grounding problem elsewhere. I suggest you check all the grounds to the engine sensors and ECU. Maybe there is an issue there. Check the voltage drops on the grounds using the negative battery post as your meter reference and the engine running, along with taking resistance readings with no power applied. Checking the shield grounds to the sensors may be good to do also.
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:22 PM   #33
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Making a resistance reading on an energized circuit IS MEANINGLESS. If the immobilizer ground lead is less than 1 ohm with everything OFF that is all you need to do to check the condition of the ground connection to the immobilizer. If there is something going on with the immobilizer circuit it isn't due to a ground issue and you are chasing your tail if you think there is a problem because the resistance reading changes when you have things energized. I assume that the Main Relay operation is controlled by the ECU and the cutoff may take place after the ECU goes into the sleep mode. I don't know that for sure but suspect that is the case. I don't think that is an issue.

If the engine runs rough while the alternator is working but runs smooth while the alternator is disabled it may indicate there is a grounding problem elsewhere. I suggest you check all the grounds to the engine sensors and ECU. Maybe there is an issue there. Check the voltage drops on the grounds using the negative battery post as your meter reference and the engine running, along with taking resistance readings with no power applied. Checking the shield grounds to the sensors may be good to do also.
I know I just figured I'd check them with it running also just to see the difference.

Even with alternator unplugged green 3 pin plug that is not the terminal for power supply. I still get resistance to ground. Manual states to wait 8 seconds between key cycles to check ohm to ground. I suppose so the ecu goes into sleep. I also believe until the capacitors drain down aka sleep mode the main relay stays triggered.

Oddly I'm showing no ground to the main relay key on or off.

The pins that got swapped by jr for 04 sti ecu one goes to main relay but it's not for ground? Gonna look at schematic to see where ground is going to main relay and check that. I'm suspecting that's my issue if not at least one of them. Still unsure if it was due to the ecu swap or not but assuming it was as I didn't have that issue before. Honestly don't know how the main relay is even working without ground I'm checking with one end of meter to main dash bar. I guess I can run a test leed to the battery. I can't find them still unpacking from the move so I just been using spare wire that's kicking around.

Im also questioning one of the pins in the ecu connector possibly being pinched into a adjacent pin causing this issue. But all pins seem to be seated fully and the locks for them are seated in place.

The other end of the harness that come through the firewall near the turbo I am also thinking could be the issue as the car has a rotated kit on it and that harness seems hard from the amount of heat it's seen over the years. But I haven't looked to see what wires go through it besides obvious o2 sensor and maf sensor iat sensor. Cars speed density.

I popped main relay apart cleaned contacts all seem well there. Gonna put that back in. I'm also thinking maybe the main engine harness shielded ground could have rubbed through as it hugs the sensor power wires in that harness. I was gonna cut them and check to see if they're getting power to them. If so I'll know that's the issue.
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:58 PM   #34
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Tell me what the voltage is on each of the Main Relay coil leads using a known good ground reference point for your meter and the engine is running.
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Old 01-16-2021, 12:19 AM   #35
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Tell me what the voltage is on each of the Main Relay coil leads using a known good ground reference point for your meter and the engine is running.

I'll check them out tomorrow. Pretty sure all have 12v except one that is like .8v figured that was ground. Small light green wire.
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Old 01-16-2021, 08:26 AM   #36
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Looking at some of my data it shows that there is a light green/white wire used to supply the controlled ground of the main relay coil via the ECU on connector 137, pin 16. So having .8 volts on that lead should be normal because the ground is most likely being supplied through a transistor circuit. You won't see a low resistance to ground on that lead like you would with a hard wired ground connection. The control transistor has to be turned on for the relay to turn on. The low voltage seen on the relay return lead proves the ground connection is there when the engine is running. I don't see any problem with that so unless the supply voltage to the relay coil is less than 12 volts the Main Relay operation should be fine. Unless one of the switched contacts has a resistance problem the relay shouldn't be causing an issue with the engine operation.

If the engine is still running rough while the alternator is running I suggest you make up a ground jumper lead, using at least a 12 gauge wire, that you can tie one end to the battery and then touch all of the engine and chassis grounds to see if you can change the engine operation at one of the ground connections. If you can that would indicate that ground point has a problem.
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Old 01-16-2021, 02:07 PM   #37
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So relay unplugged key on I get 4.0 resistance to green small wire that disconnects when switching key off. Red black wire gets 11.5v naigboring blue red wire 11.5v other blue red wire 11.5v yellow green wire 1.6v yellow red wire .014v..

Plugged in car running red black wire is 14.4v blue red wire is 0v the one next to red black. Yellow red is 14.4v 14.2v on blue red wire by the green one yellow and green wire is 14.2 and small green is .9v

It doesn't really run that rough honestly. Just has some misfires that tend to appear then go away within every 5 seconds until warm then smooths out but the cylinder roughness is still there
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Old 01-16-2021, 02:27 PM   #38
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I took a video but dunno how to add it here. Besides photobucket and not sure that's still the case. Don't even know my password on there anymore. If I remove the two ground terminals on the driver's side intake and bolt them together the car runs so much better. But the afr gauges act weird at idle. My wideband says it's pegged lean. And afr sensor on Cobb says it's pegged 11.0
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Old 01-16-2021, 10:28 PM   #39
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We may have something here with your voltage test results. There are two blu/red wires going to the relay. My info shows one of the wires supplies power to the relay coil. The other one should supply power from fuse SBF-5 to the relay contact going to the yellow wire. The yellow wire supplies power to a number of key areas including the ECM. I have to think that when you measured 0 volts on the blu/red wire it was in error and you weren't making good connection to that wire. If it was a true reading then I can't explain how the engine is running at all unless some power connections have been bypassed.

To add a picture at least, you click on the mountain scene above the reply area.

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Old 01-17-2021, 12:36 AM   #40
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We may have something here with your voltage test results. There are two blu/red wires going to the relay. My info shows one of the wires supplies power to the relay coil. The other one should supply power from fuse SBF-5 to the relay contact going to the yellow wire. The yellow wire supplies power to a number of key areas including the ECM. I have to think that when you measured 0 volts on the blu/red wire it was in error and you weren't making good connection to that wire. If it was a true reading then I can't explain how the engine is running at all unless some power connections have been bypassed.

To add a picture at least, you click on the mountain scene above the reply area.
I'll check again tomorrow. I'm on the app don't see that option. I had a hydra ems in the car a long time ago. And when I got the launch control harness from Phil I installed it and I had smelt this burning wire smell. I'm not sure what it was I couldn't find anything burnt. I know that ground wire from f60 pin 16 the safety switch. But all the clutch switch stuff seems to work fine. When I look at the data on the Cobb. It does however say it's always in 1st gear but I haven't taken it down the road to see if it noticed second gear. Wonder if that has anything to do with that. I did rebuild the transmission once.

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Old 01-17-2021, 07:44 AM   #41
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So looking at my engine harness on the passenger side the red and blue wire comes from main plug from driver's side. Then feeds through harness going into firewall. I'm guessing it runs through the main relay haven't check it for continuity to make sure. But that wire has a sheething that the shielded ground runs through. I'm wondering if that ground wire is contacting that wire. Or if the harness near turbo has taken to much heat over time and is either rubbed through our just burnt causing the resistance. I'm suspecting the wire on engine harness being the issue some in gonna cut that ground and jumper it. And see what I get. If that'll doesn't work I'm gonna start pulling the harness by turbo apart and look for an issue.
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Old 01-18-2021, 06:57 AM   #42
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The wires colors I was referring to going to the Main Relay are blue /red, not red blue, just to be certain of that. They have power on them that is provided by fuse SBF-5. If there was a low resistance connected to them the fuse would blow out. I wouldn't just start cutting into things unless you have proved there is a problem using the voltmeter. You stated that one of the blu/red wires had no voltage on it when the relay was plugged in but it had power on it when the relay was removed. Those wires pass through a connector after the fuse. The testing you did tells me there is a high resistance to power before the relay and after the fuse and is causing a voltage drop to occur across the faulty connection. If you did the testing correctly. So when a load is connected, the voltage drops to zero volts and the high resistance connection has the voltage across it instead of the load. Perhaps reconnecting the connector before the Main Relay will clear up the fault.
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Old 01-18-2021, 01:39 PM   #43
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The wires colors I was referring to going to the Main Relay are blue /red, not red blue, just to be certain of that. They have power on them that is provided by fuse SBF-5. If there was a low resistance connected to them the fuse would blow out. I wouldn't just start cutting into things unless you have proved there is a problem using the voltmeter. You stated that one of the blu/red wires had no voltage on it when the relay was plugged in but it had power on it when the relay was removed. Those wires pass through a connector after the fuse. The testing you did tells me there is a high resistance to power before the relay and after the fuse and is causing a voltage drop to occur across the faulty connection. If you did the testing correctly. So when a load is connected, the voltage drops to zero volts and the high resistance connection has the voltage across it instead of the load. Perhaps reconnecting the connector before the Main Relay will clear up the fault.

I'm not worried about cutting wires on a harness that I've already done repairs to. One of my issues was in fact in the engine harness. I was getting .3v being sent to ground from the shielded ground wire that runs through the engine harness. Basically it's just a naked ground wire that hugs sensor power or signal not sure really. But I do know once I cut that I measured .3v reaching ground.

And my .6v I had at F60 pin 16 dropped to .2v which should also be ground not voltage.

However there is another issue. And that issue goes away when I pull sbf5 but I'm not 100% sure it ends there. Because even with sbf5 unplugged I'm still measuring .020v to f60 pin 16

However I am getting much closer to fixing this issue with this car.

I'll check that solid blue red stripe wire again key off and key on. Assuming issue isn't there as pump turns on car runs and everything..

Is that another shielded ground wire? I'm assuming if there is that may be the issue.

Why even shield a ground wire. Why run it naked next to a signal wire that can see .5v if there is risk of that wire making contact to ground? Makes no sense to me. When I get the money I'll probably order a new engine harness.

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Old 01-18-2021, 02:51 PM   #44
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Shielded wires are usually used on low signal level wires to keep noise from egressing into the signal going through the wire. Ground wires are not shielded.

Just because you see .3 volts on a ground wire connection it doesn't mean that ground connection is bad. In fact it is most likely just fine. Voltage drops on grounds occur because there is still wire losses to account for. The more current flowing to ground the more the voltage drop will be across the ground connection. Searching for a problem on a ground that has a .3 volt drop on it will lead you in circles. If you had a 1 volt drop on the ground point then I would look for a problem on the ground. If you suspect there is a bad ground point somewhere simply run a jumper wire tied to the battery and the suspected bad ground point and see if that makes any change. I think you are casing ghosts.

The blu/red wire that comes from the main relay contact should have power on it when the relay is ON. There may be a faulty socket connection to the relay. I can't explain why the engine runs having that issue going on because it supplies power to vital engine areas and the engine shouldn't be able to work having no power on that lead. The only thing I can think of is you made a false reading on the connection when you did it.

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Old 01-18-2021, 05:12 PM   #45
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Shielded wires are usually used on low signal level wires to keep noise from egressing into the signal going through the wire. Ground wires are not shielded.

Just because you see .3 volts on a ground wire connection it doesn't mean that ground connection is bad. In fact it is most likely just fine. Voltage drops on grounds occur because there is still wire losses to account for. The more current flowing to ground the more the voltage drop will be across the ground connection. Searching for a problem on a ground that has a .3 volt drop on it will lead you in circles. If you had a 1 volt drop on the ground point then I would look for a problem on the ground. If you suspect there is a bad ground point somewhere simply run a jumper wire tied to the battery and the suspected bad ground point and see if that makes any change. I think you are casing ghosts.

The blu/red wire that comes from the main relay contact should have power on it when the relay is ON. There may be a faulty socket connection to the relay. I can't explain why the engine runs having that issue going on because it supplies power to vital engine areas and the engine shouldn't be able to work having no power on that lead. The only thing I can think of is you made a false reading on the connection when you did it.

Well I did check it with relay unplugged and with relay plugged in. Just to see if I had continuity to ground. Maybe you got confused with both of the data combined.

And it's not a .3v voltage drop. It's in fact power getting to ground.. (power short to ground) as I've been suspecting through a sensor that is why it hasn't popped a fuse.

A voltage drop would be me getting 12v at the battery and then only getting 10v to the starter motor leed from the battery. There will always be some acceptable voltage drop. As the unit itself need's the power to run its outputs.

However this is a totally different issue being (voltage shorted to ground)

I suppose an over powered system could possibly send power to the ground wire also. As the system can only make use of and retain it's rated amount. I guess it's possible the system can leak voltage into the ground circuit. And say a diode could even be melted. That would cause a current flow issue. Say a diode is melted and making contact and it's back flowing power. Where will that power go?

Voltage shouldn't be present at ground at all.

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Old 01-19-2021, 12:55 AM   #46
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In you second statement about the starter there is wire loss on the power side to the starter. There is also wire losses on the ground wires to the various components they tie to.

"And it's not a .3v voltage drop. It's in fact power getting to ground.. (power short to ground) as I've been suspecting through a sensor that is why it hasn't popped a fuse."

I don't understand the above statement at all. Are you talking about a output signal wire from a sensor is getting bridged to ground somehow? Which lead are you referring to? What sensor?..... A power wire shorted to ground?... I think we both know what happens when that occurs and power is applied.

Back in post 37 you talked about a blu/red wire having 0 volts on it when the engine was running. My info shows that wire going to pin 5 of the relay socket and it is a switched power lead that supplies a lot of engine related items. The same wire also supplies power to the Main Relay coil so something isn't right with that. The relay is obviously working. My info shows pins 3 and 4 are the switched power output leads of the relay.

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Old 01-19-2021, 01:48 AM   #47
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In you second statement about the starter there is wire loss on the power side to the starter. There is also wire losses on the ground wires to the various components they tie to.

"And it's not a .3v voltage drop. It's in fact power getting to ground.. (power short to ground) as I've been suspecting through a sensor that is why it hasn't popped a fuse."

I don't understand the above statement at all. Are you talking about a output signal wire from a sensor is getting bridged to ground somehow? Which lead are you referring to? What sensor?..... A power wire shorted to ground?... I think we both know what happens when that occurs and power is applied.

Back in post 37 you talked about a blu/red wire having 0 volts on it when the engine was running. My info shows that wire going to pin 5 of the relay socket and it is a switched power lead that supplies a lot of engine related items. The same wire also supplies power to the Main Relay coil so something isn't right with that. The relay is obviously working. My info shows pins 3 and 4 are the switched power output leads of the relay.
I will check the relay wires again. My main relay has 6 wires however. Are you looking at a wrx my car is an sti it just looks like a wrx ***128518;

+ +
_ _
_ _

What pin is 5,4,3 I put the plus sign for vertical terminals.
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Old 01-19-2021, 04:04 PM   #48
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The Main Relay in all the models has two separate sets of relay contacts that connect power from fuse SBF-5 to various engine components. That is why there is six leads to the relay. Two leads are for the coil, which are pins 1 and 2 and would be the two plus signs in your diagram. Pins 3 and 4 are below that and are two separate leads tied to fuse SBF-5 through a connector. Pins 5 and 6 are at the bottom of your diagram and are the two switched relay contact output leads of the relay. Pin 3 switches to pin 5 and pin 4 switches to pin 6.

Last edited by Cougar4; 01-19-2021 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 01-19-2021, 07:05 PM   #49
spoolinsti05
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2005 TickingTimeBomb
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Didn't mess with the car today but I'm gonna probably get to it soon. Last night I pulled sbf5 and I checked to see if it was getting power. Got 12v on one terminal and I'm pretty sure the other was 0.. but I do remember checking another large fuse and thought it was odd that both terminals had power to them. Forget what one it was but I'll check again. As far as I knew I thought only one terminal should have power when the fuse is disconnected from the box.
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:46 AM   #50
Cougar4
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Yes, power should normally be only on one side of the fuse connector when the fused is removed from the circuit. The fuse is there to protect the wiring and circuit after the fuse connection. Depending on how the circuit is designed, I suppose there could be times that you could see some power on the protected side of the fuse connection if another connection to power was connected to the circuit for some reason, but that would not happen normally.
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