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Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM   #1501
dwf137
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'09 wrx
'14 Outback

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My anecdotal experience says I do not have that problem with my car. I have experimented many times over now, and find absolutely no impact on HA in normal acceleration situations. It's easy to keep HA from engaging... let off brake before pressing clutch pedal. I have done that many times to see what impact it has on accelerating in just about every situation, and it impacts nothing. Yes, I can feel when the brakes let go, but it's so early in the clutch engagement in my car, that there's no way it could cause me to stall, or burn my clutch.

I also come from a different vantage point than you might... My first personally owned manual transmission was my '08 mcs, which had hill-start assist. I have never owned a manual transmission vehicle without HA. I have driven one, for sure, but never owned one. I only drove a manual car 2 times before purchasing my MCS. Perhaps I've just learned how to deal with it... Either way, when that moron CUV driver pulls up to my bumper on one of the streets approaching 20% grade around here, I appreciate it.

Just trying to understand and see the other side of the coin... that's all.
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM   #1502
Sid03SVT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Taking a bit of a tangent line here... what is your complaint with hill-start assist? I personally love it in a city with super steep streets and moron drivers who don't understand that manual transmissions still exist. If you "need" the car to roll back, just disengage the clutch without using the brake pedal - no hill-start assist. It doesn't hinder acceleration in any meaningful way. The ONLY time I have found that I don't like it is when I'm parked on a steep street, because it holds the car still and I'm not totally sure how much engagement with the clutch I have (will the car roll forward/back after the hill-start assist lets go?), but engaging the clutch without brake pedal, using the emergency brake instead, I can avoid its engagement.

Or perhaps Subaru has made hill-start assist more invasive compared to the version in my car?
I've been driving stick my entire life; the Subaru HA appears to kick in at random at best, It felt like it was dragging the brakes at times after I've begun moving forward; which resulted in a stall on a small grade during my test drive.

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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
I can't justify dropping my Legacy GT wagon for a Forester XT. Or a 3.6R Outback. No matter how you spin it, neither are a Legacy GT wagon replacement. Which is why the Levorg was made in the first place. I'd rather replace every part many times over in my Legacy than settle for Subaru's strategy of offering un-alternatives for our market and all alternatives for everyone else.
So it's you sitting in the boat next to me huh? (2006 5mt limited WRX wagon myself)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vapore0n View Post
I disabled mine because it was very annoying.
HA uses the rear brakes to hold the car in place. Sounds neat. Except that my car was turning on HA on mild hills where it was not needed, and holding the brakes far too long than needed, causing me to get out of sync with the car and stalling or forcing me to break or burn clutch to get the car moving again. Pretty much made it look like I didnt know how to drive manual.
Disabling HA made moving out from a dead stop much easier and responsive.
This is more or less what I'm talking about with the HA

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
My anecdotal experience says I do not have that problem with my car. I have experimented many times over now, and find absolutely no impact on HA in normal acceleration situations. It's easy to keep HA from engaging... let off brake before pressing clutch pedal. I have done that many times to see what impact it has on accelerating in just about every situation, and it impacts nothing. Yes, I can feel when the brakes let go, but it's so early in the clutch engagement in my car, that there's no way it could cause me to stall, or burn my clutch.

I also come from a different vantage point than you might... My first personally owned manual transmission was my '08 mcs, which had hill-start assist. I have never owned a manual transmission vehicle without HA. I have driven one, for sure, but never owned one. I only drove a manual car 2 times before purchasing my MCS. Perhaps I've just learned how to deal with it... Either way, when that moron CUV driver pulls up to my bumper on one of the streets approaching 20% grade around here, I appreciate it.

Just trying to understand and see the other side of the coin... that's all.
Yeah very different start; my first experience with a manual trans was a 86 F150 I-6 4x4; I've been driving manuals my who life. Conversely, my first experience with HA was my wife's 2017 corolla iM hatch we picked up back in July, that system isn't as intrusive as the Subaru one, and is more consistent; I still dislike it, but it doesn't activate unless you are on a severe grade, has a 2 second timer (from when you release the brake pedal), and it doesn't drag brakes like the Subaru system appears to. Admittedly the first thing I do when I get in her car is cancel the TC & VSC; I've experienced both in a snow storm, they were both a hindrance for me because the cars goals are different than mine.

FYI the way to do hill starts on severe grades when someone is up your tailpipe involves releasing the handbrake as you engage the clutch; similar to what HA does, however, you are in control of your right hand & both feet so you know exactly what is going to happen and can re-engage the handbrake if need be for whatever reason (stall, traffic unexpectedly stopping, bike messenger being a d***, etc.) without making the gas/brake pedal jump.

Different strokes though; I prefer less computer interference in my driving experience because I grew up on manual everything; this is actually my wife's first traction control car, after swearing it for the first week of winter, she now turns it off before she leaves the garage (she keeps VSC on though).

as usual YMMV
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Old Yesterday, 02:12 PM   #1503
dwf137
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I'm well aware of how to drive a non-HA car on steep streets. I have driven this car without HA for an extended period of time when my car was throwing a CEL due to a secondary air pump failure and all TCS, including HA, was disabled. It's not hard, but HA is a tool that makes it easier. I also find that HA, at least in my vehicle, is extremely predictable. HA has a timer, just like that Corolla you described. It doesn't drag breaks in any way that matters... Once the car is moving in the forward direction, I feel the brakes let go. I wouldn't be surprised if HA has evolved over the years, and might be more intrusive now.

VDC/TCS is a totally different discussion. My intent is not to discuss those types of systems. I'm talking about a system that is engaged only when a vehicle is stationary. Let's not start to extrapolate my love for HA to other hindrance systems like VDC/TCS, they're often disabled on my car as well.
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Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM   #1504
chanomatik
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I had HA on my 08 FXT Sport. I didn't mind it, but I can't say I necessarily miss it. It never intruded with my clutch engagement, but I also did my best to adapt to it as well. Probably because my STI was the car I learned stick on and only had it for less than a year before getting the FXT.
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Old Yesterday, 02:34 PM   #1505
Sid03SVT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
I'm well aware of how to drive a non-HA car on steep streets. I have driven this car without HA for an extended period of time when my car was throwing a CEL due to a secondary air pump failure and all TCS, including HA, was disabled. It's not hard, but HA is a tool that makes it easier. I also find that HA, at least in my vehicle, is extremely predictable. HA has a timer, just like that Corolla you described. It doesn't drag breaks in any way that matters... Once the car is moving in the forward direction, I feel the brakes let go. I wouldn't be surprised if HA has evolved over the years, and might be more intrusive now.

VDC/TCS is a totally different discussion. My intent is not to discuss those types of systems. I'm talking about a system that is engaged only when a vehicle is stationary. Let's not start to extrapolate my love for HA to other hindrance systems like VDC/TCS, they're often disabled on my car as well.
not trying to put words in your mouth regarding other electronic nannies, that was more of a "my views on electronic nannies" and my "FYI" was just that, an FYI, wasn't being snarky towards you, if I came off that way, it was not my intention.

as for brake dragging - it could be the newer version is more intrusive, as I haven't driven an older Subaru with HA.

In general about drivers aids - I think they are great for the general pop on normal cars, as well as that prone to under steer when pushed design philosophy; However, I feel like once you move up from "it's a people mover" to "I'm looking for a performance car that can double as a people mover" The handling situation should skew to neutral and/or over steer (Over steer is much more funner-er) and nannies should be cancelled easily and remain off after you turn the car off instead of having to turn them off at each startup; I just don't like nannies on my car, nor do I like the prone to under steer situation either.

Grain of salt, if someone drove my WRX in snowy weather they'd probably wind up backwards in a ditch when the rear passed them because they weren't paying attention, and I'm sure the average driver would hate my car for it's complete lack of nannies (save ABS) & tech (I mean, climate control & a 6-disc changer in the dash though!); two of it's most endearing qualities IMHO.
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Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM   #1506
WRX4US
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I never found hill assist intrusive, but I haven't found it to be reliable. Thought I would like it but, found myself rolling back a couple of times. Brought it to the dealer a couple of times, and they told me it was working as it should. I don't even think about it now, humanmatically using the handbrake at every stop.
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Old Yesterday, 02:45 PM   #1507
dwf137
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Fair enough SVT. I just view HA as categorically different from TCS type aids. One only occurs when stopped, the others interfere with driver inputs while moving.

I can't stand TCS/VDS. I do, however, like that it's present in my car, for the reasons you state above. For a while, we were a one-car family and my wife drove my car around in the rain/snow. She's not an engaged driver, and knowing that she had VDC/TCS to help her out was reassuring. I don't want her to end up in a ditch because she toe'd in a little too hard on a corner. However, when I take the wheel in the rain or snow, I disable them, because they're completely unpredictable and imo, dangerous at times.
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Old Yesterday, 03:27 PM   #1508
Sid03SVT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
Fair enough SVT. I just view HA as categorically different from TCS type aids. One only occurs when stopped, the others interfere with driver inputs while moving.

I can't stand TCS/VDS. I do, however, like that it's present in my car, for the reasons you state above. For a while, we were a one-car family and my wife drove my car around in the rain/snow. She's not an engaged driver, and knowing that she had VDC/TCS to help her out was reassuring. I don't want her to end up in a ditch because she toe'd in a little too hard on a corner. However, when I take the wheel in the rain or snow, I disable them, because they're completely unpredictable and imo, dangerous at times.
yeah my wife turns the TC off in her car but leaves the VSC on; she is a fairly engaged driver, but not as engaged or "picky" as I am and is fine with FF as long as there is a 6mt to row.
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Old Yesterday, 04:37 PM   #1509
b4wantab
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You have to look at it this way; over-steer can kill you and others. Under-steer usually will only kill you. Safety-wise all car companies dial in under-steer.

I always use the parking brake on hills but, I never had a car that had HA.

Peace,

Greg
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Old Yesterday, 05:23 PM   #1510
JustyWRC
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06 Forester 04 Forester

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Never had a problem with Incline Start Assist. I actually loved it on my '08 STI after my '04.
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM   #1511
vittoriob4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
Buying new, Alltrack seems like solid value as long as you keep it a few years. Buying used I'd go 328i xdrive, maybe allroad, depending on priorities and preferences.

Or deal with the current car and wait to see what shows up on the Subaru Global Platform... I've gotta believe a next-gen Forester will be pretty good, if there's any kind of performance trim.
You are correct. Alltrack would make more sense on longer run. Not sure why I didn't even think of 328. But than again for that price tag V60 seems like a better choice overall. No?
On other note this is so frustrating... When I was in Europe last summer just like every year and seeing all those wagons and hatchbacks makes you think twice wtf is going on with American car industry. I get it and we'd already covered that topic 1000000 times. Wagons don't sell here. They want to milk that cow while it lasts and ride that suv trend.
But for instance Merc decided to sell new truck exclusively for European market and not here, but who buys a truck in Europe????!!! Trust me. I was born and raised in Europe and moved to States 20 years ago while growing up seeing Evo's all over. Nobody buys freaking trucks. Every year when I visit my family I didn't see one single truck. Although you can find them on dealership lots. Yes. Trucks don't sell in Europe. On top of that their gas prices and taxes are sky high. Yet if you want one you can get one. Makes sense. Not...

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