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Old 09-10-2013, 09:32 AM   #426
mrkyle3
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Originally Posted by cannedtuna View Post
Awd vs fwd....smh, I can't go a day without reading a post that infers Awd>fwd. Anyhow.....The WRX and STI are not as close as WRX buyers would like us to believe, there's still a gap between the two. There are still good reasons to buy a STI over a WRX; and the same could be said about the R over the GTI; but to each their own. Also, like scrappy said, 7 generations in and it's still sought after. The GTI isn't some lame duck, hp numbers keep going up and the GTI sti maintains its driving dynamics. In the end I recognize there is a difference but certainly not huge enough to make the R hands down the better buy. I will test drive both.
You're welcome to your opinion, but my WRX only has an upgraded suspension and I poop on STIs all day long in STU autocross. Once you change out the suspension on both cars they are pretty much dead equal. Arguments can be made, mainly concerning the STIs drivetrain. But for those of us who aren't going beyond stage 1 or 2 it doesn't make a difference. Brakes? HAH. Change fluids and pads and no more brake fade. My brakes are strong enough to lock up 245 direzza ZIIs that are warm.

And AWD is better than FWD, how is that even arguable? My mom has a ms3 and I've driven it extensively. The advantage of AWD is so obvious when you drive them side-by-side.

And I never said the GTI wasn't fun to drive, I just said its performance isn't anywhere close to the R, and the performance gap between the GTI and R is much larger than between the WRX and STI.

And scrappy for what it's worth, I think it was an excellent decision to get the R over the GTI.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:45 AM   #427
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Well I had a slightly modified 2006 STI in STU here and I routinely placed 2nd - 4th for 2 years with that car. A stock LGT was able to beat me very frequently. It is often not the car, but the driver. Perhaps you can poop on STI's, but have you thought that is more because of your talents?

Would you not be faster in a car with stronger brakes, shorter gearing, a more aggressive AWD system with LSD's.

I had a 2011 WRX, and while it is a nice car at stage 2, and STI is a better overall package. Leave the autocross and go to a track day and I think the STI would start to shine a bit over the WRX.

I am lining up a track day for my R soon, so I can kill off my all season pirelli's

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Old 09-10-2013, 09:51 AM   #428
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Um, the GTI may not be a great performance car akin to a McLaren, but the GTI is a splendid drivers car. It does just about everything well and while not the fastest in any one catagory, it is competitive in all of them, at the same time it has class leading interior, and fit and finish.

The GTI is a great little car. Look 7 generations of fans cannot be all wrong. Just like Subaru fans, VW's have fans for reasons, they are really good cars.
I feel a lot of people that continue to hammer the GTI for being FWD simply haven't spent enough time driving one. I would have no issues at all owning one as you won't find a better balanced car in it's price range. Like you said it does everything well and nothing poor while having an interior and build quality of a +$40k car as no other car in the segment feels as substantial.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:04 AM   #429
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Well I had a slightly modified 2006 STI in STU here and I routinely placed 2nd - 4th for 2 years with that car. A stock LGT was able to beat me very frequently. It is often not the car, but the driver. Perhaps you can poop on STI's, but have you thought that is more because of your talents?

Would you not be faster in a car with stronger brakes, shorter gearing, a more aggressive AWD system with LSD's.

I had a 2011 WRX, and while it is a nice car at stage 2, and STI is a better overall package. Leave the autocross and go to a track day and I think the STI would start to shine a bit over the WRX.

I am lining up a track day for my R soon, so I can kill off my all season pirelli's

It's possible that it's just me, but I honestly think the differences are smaller than one would think once you upgrade the suspension and actually throw it around. It's possible I'm horribly wrong, but I don't think so.

You are very knowledgeable, and I respect that (and you), but there are a few things I would disagree with.
1. Stronger brakes: the WRX stops faster from 60 by ~6 feet with stock pads, and tires that are 10mm narrower from the factory. Upgrade to equal width tires and non-bad pads and I would wager the difference grows quite a bit. Further, the WRX brakes are strong enough to lock up 245 direzza ZIIs. A brake upgrade would do literally nothing for this car. The main limitation in brake fade is the stock fluid boiling --> upgrade to dot 4

2. Shorter gearing: yes the WRX has longer gearing, but whether that is a disadvantage is arguable. I can stay in second gear the entire run in my WRX, whereas STIs often have to shift to third and then shift back to second (time loss). The power bands are sufficiently wide to where the slight gearing differences don't make too much of a difference.

3. More aggressive AWD system with LSDs: this is where I would 100% agree with you. However, the difference LSDs make on an autocross course in an AWD car is debatable. Rallycrossing the difference would be huge, but riding along with the fastest driver in my region (2008 STI) I didn't feel much of a difference, perhaps it would have been different if I were the one driving.

The ride along was when I had RCE yellows, but I have since upgraded to 8k/10k front/rear with coilovers (after determining optimal spring stiffness via calculating suspension natural frequency), which made a huge difference (those are rates the STI dude was running). My car now feels identical to how his did (to me). It rotates like you wouldn't believe. No understeer, hint of power-on oversteer. I'll know for sure this weekend when I autocross it for the first time.

However, I refuse to argue further until you shred your all season tires, that should be a crime on an R
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #430
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I have to agree on the gearing. The need for a third gear shift was often annoying to me and I often just road the rev limiter in my runs. Such a wonderful sound once you get use to it. It often depends on the track, but most autox runs could be made in 2nd in the STI, and all of them could be made in 2nd in the WRX.

Brakes are not really worked that hard during an autocross. I never ever upgraded brakes on any of my autox cars as I rarely used the brakes for long periods of time, since the run was over 65 seconds or less. Once I started to do track days, I quickly learned just how limiting OEM brakes were on the 2011 WRX. I completely destroyed my fluid and glazed a set of OEM pads in one 20 minute session in august. Brakes never recovered. I had a long brake pedal until I installed new pads and put DOT4 just as you did.

The WRX is a lighter car than the STI, but I would wager on average the STI with wider tires and better brakes should out brake the 2011 WRX fairly easily. I did a quick google search and the few reviews I found showed the STI braking shorter than the WRX anywhere from 1 -9 feet shorter. Not saying a review would not show the reverse, but I would wager the perponderance of the evidence would support better braking from wider tires and big brembos. The lighting lap showed the biggest advantage the STI had over the WRX was in fact confidence in brakes NOT power or speed.

Still glad you found a suspension setting that makes you happy. Autocross is a pretty good playing field leveler and I would not use it as a litmus test for the benefits of an WRX over an STI.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:31 AM   #431
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The WRX is a lighter car than the STI, but I would wager on average the STI with wider tires and better brakes should out brake the 2011 WRX fairly easily. I did a quick google search and the few reviews I found showed the STI braking shorter than the WRX anywhere from 1 -9 feet shorter. Not saying a review would not show the reverse, but I would wager the perponderance of the evidence would support better braking from wider tires and big brembos. The lighting lap showed the biggest advantage the STI had over the WRX was in fact confidence in brakes NOT power or speed.

Still glad you found a suspension setting that makes you happy. Autocross is a pretty good playing field leveler and I would not use it as a litmus test for the benefits of an WRX over an STI.
106 feet:
http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se...on_first_test/

113 feet:
http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se...ti_sedan_test/

Both tests by motortrend.

I can't argue about the brakes on a road course because I don't have experience with that, but I would like to see how the wrx performs during a test with better brake pads and fluid. It's possible that it would eliminate fade and close the gap in lap times. I really think it's a common misconception that the brembos are significantly better than the WRX brakes. Even if the brembos provide more clamping force, the fact that both cars can lock up wheels with their brakes indicates the brakes are stronger than the tires and thus play no role in stopping distance. The brakes are stronger than the tires even with direzzas!
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:48 AM   #432
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the fact that both cars can lock up wheels with their brakes indicates the brakes are stronger than the tires and thus play no role in stopping distance. The brakes are stronger than the tires even with direzzas!
Is that supposed to be surprising? Brakes don't stop the car, tires do. Brakes convert kinetic energy to thermal energy, so they should be evaluated on that metric.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:02 AM   #433
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Auto-x is such a narrow band of performance that the differences between a WRX and STI aren't going to be highlighted. On a track, you are going to want the shorter gearing. You are going to want the LSDs on a track, too.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:23 AM   #434
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You're welcome to your opinion, but my WRX only has an upgraded suspension and I poop on STIs all day long in STU autocross. Once you change out the suspension on both cars they are pretty much dead equal. Arguments can be made, mainly concerning the STIs drivetrain. But for those of us who aren't going beyond stage 1 or 2 it doesn't make a difference. Brakes? HAH. Change fluids and pads and no more brake fade. My brakes are strong enough to lock up 245 direzza ZIIs that are warm.

And AWD is better than FWD, how is that even arguable? My mom has a ms3 and I've driven it extensively. The advantage of AWD is so obvious when you drive them side-by-side.

And I never said the GTI wasn't fun to drive, I just said its performance isn't anywhere close to the R, and the performance gap between the GTI and R is much larger than between the WRX and STI.

And scrappy for what it's worth, I think it was an excellent decision to get the R over the GTI.
The first thing a WRX owner likes to point out is how capable the WRX is, which is entirely true but then their argument becomes overbearing when they compare it to the STI. The STI is simply a better car, and while you have tons of fun with your car the STI will still maintain its overall appeal.

The second thing a WRX owner will point out after they've won a few stoplight races is how much better AWD is. Now I can agree being originally from NJ that AWD is just more fun but commuting in the snow was not more difficult when I had my 97 Corolla. I did not fell the power like you're feeling. Also Ford proved in the Focus RS that with the right front diff you can almost eliminate torque steer. Your mothers ms3 does not have any torque diffusing capabilities and I'm sorry if that at its price point and considering what it offers, you aren't happy with that.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #435
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Scrappy any comments about the brakes on the R? I'm curious because the new R seems to have the same calipers as the current but is expect to see the same dimensions as the mk7 GTI's performance pack.
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:12 PM   #436
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The first thing a WRX owner likes to point out is how capable the WRX is, which is entirely true but then their argument becomes overbearing when they compare it to the STI. The STI is simply a better car, and while you have tons of fun with your car the STI will still maintain its overall appeal.

The second thing a WRX owner will point out after they've won a few stoplight races is how much better AWD is. Now I can agree being originally from NJ that AWD is just more fun but commuting in the snow was not more difficult when I had my 97 Corolla. I did not fell the power like you're feeling. Also Ford proved in the Focus RS that with the right front diff you can almost eliminate torque steer. Your mothers ms3 does not have any torque diffusing capabilities and I'm sorry if that at its price point and considering what it offers, you aren't happy with that.
Nobody claimed the sti wasn't more capable stock, I'm just saying with a suspension swap they are pretty even. I have provided evidence, you have not. Would you not agree the focus rs would be even better as awd? It would be.

And awd isn't only better for stoplight races, it's better for powering out of corners and inherently has less understeer. I find it hilarious how opinionated you are when nothing you say is even the least bit supported.

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Auto-x is such a narrow band of performance that the differences between a WRX and STI aren't going to be highlighted. On a track, you are going to want the shorter gearing. You are going to want the LSDs on a track, too.
I would argue that autocrossing is the ultimate test of the handling ability of a particular chassis. Not the only test by all means, but it certainly gives you an excellent idea of how nimble a particular car is and how it handles at the absolute limits. Obviously not the best way to check for track braking, however.

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Old 09-10-2013, 12:43 PM   #437
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And awd ... inherently has less understeer.
Than what?
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:01 PM   #438
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Nobody claimed the sti wasn't more capable stock, I'm just saying with a suspension swap they are pretty even. I have provided evidence, you have not. Would you not agree the focus rs would be even better as awd? It would be.

And awd isn't only better for stoplight races, it's better for powering out of corners and inherently has less understeer. I find it hilarious how opinionated you are when nothing you say is even the least bit supported.
You have to compare stock vs stock because anyone can dump money into a car and make it more capable. Also the only evidence you've provided is empirical which from what I've read can be interpreted as your own subjective opinions.

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Old 09-10-2013, 01:16 PM   #439
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You have to compare stock vs stock because anyone can dump money into a car and make it more capable. Also the only evidence you've provided is empirical which from what I've read can be interpreted as your own subjective opinions.
I think the common argument is that you could spend $8-10k more on an STI or get a WRX and do a suspension upgrade for $2500 and have a similarly-performing car.

Also, I linked to the motortrend tests showing stopping distance. You're welcome to look at their figure 8 statistics and see how the WRX was 0.1s and 0.1g slower than the STI stock-vs-stock. With a pillow-soft suspension and narrower tires. Going off of memory the STI was like 25.5 and the WRX 25.6 seconds for the figure 8 at 0.78 and 0.77g or something around there.

I have also raced in both cars at autocrosses, so while empirical I think that gives a pretty good idea.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:21 PM   #440
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Thought I entered the 'Next Volkswagen Golf R' thread.... Must have been redirected to STI vs WRX v3254893..
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:24 PM   #441
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Thought I entered the 'Next Volkswagen Golf R' thread.... Must have been redirected to STI vs WRX v3254893..
Oh man this is all my fault, too.

Umm... the new R looks nice... I like how the calipers say R on it... I wish they would put the awesome quattro AWD system in it.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:32 PM   #442
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By the time I got down to the bottom of the page, I forgot what thread I was in and thought I was in General.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:33 PM   #443
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Oh man this is all my fault, too.
No worries mate.

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Umm... the new R looks nice... I like how the calipers say R on it... I wish they would put the awesome quattro AWD system in it.
From one argument to another
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:00 PM   #444
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I think the common argument is that you could spend $8-10k more on an STI or get a WRX and do a suspension upgrade for $2500 and have a similarly-performing car.

Also, I linked to the motortrend tests showing stopping distance. You're welcome to look at their figure 8 statistics and see how the WRX was 0.1s and 0.1g slower than the STI stock-vs-stock. With a pillow-soft suspension and narrower tires. Going off of memory the STI was like 25.5 and the WRX 25.6 seconds for the figure 8 at 0.78 and 0.77g or something around there.

I have also raced in both cars at autocrosses, so while empirical I think that gives a pretty good idea.
I'll let you keep reading those magazines, but I think that it's time to get back to talking about the R.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:22 PM   #445
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I cannot comment on the longevity of the R on a track as I have not done any track days in mine yet. However I can tell you they are far superior binders than the WRX brakes were in feel. They have better initial bite and even and progressive strength the harder you push. The R comes to a stop in a hurry. I have no numbers to back it up.

If the new R is lighter, then the binders currenly on the R are plenty good enough.

Members of the Mark VI forum on vortex seem to be able to do mulitple sessions on stock pads without any issues. Reports indicate that they dissipate heat well enough to preserve fluid and pad life for a typical track day stint.

mrkyle3, I would have to take a slight detour on autocros being the best test of handling. Autocross is a test of handling, but only one really small portion of it. Quick low speed transistions are one aspect of handling, but so are fast sweepers and high speed S's, and braking down from high speed, etc. You get my point. A car can be optimized for 15-45 mph herky jerky driving like autocross, but it will probably not handle as well with high speed corners and the like.

e.g. You want a big rear bar on most autocross courses to get the car to rotate, but that same big bar would not inspire confidence on a road course.
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:17 PM   #446
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The seats in the new R look amazing. I hope and prey they don't water down the power for us in the US like hey have in the past. If it comes over with that much power it will bring a good fight to the wrx/sti. And competition is a good thing...



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Old 09-10-2013, 03:20 PM   #447
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I'll let you keep reading those magazines, but I think that it's time to get back to talking about the R.
You're like a goldfish . I started out talking from real-world experience, then you said I have no evidence so I gave some, and now you're implying I need real-world experience.

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I cannot comment on the longevity of the R on a track as I have not done any track days in mine yet. However I can tell you they are far superior binders than the WRX brakes were in feel. They have better initial bite and even and progressive strength the harder you push. The R comes to a stop in a hurry. I have no numbers to back it up.

If the new R is lighter, then the binders currenly on the R are plenty good enough.

Members of the Mark VI forum on vortex seem to be able to do mulitple sessions on stock pads without any issues. Reports indicate that they dissipate heat well enough to preserve fluid and pad life for a typical track day stint.

mrkyle3, I would have to take a slight detour on autocros being the best test of handling. Autocross is a test of handling, but only one really small portion of it. Quick low speed transistions are one aspect of handling, but so are fast sweepers and high speed S's, and braking down from high speed, etc. You get my point. A car can be optimized for 15-45 mph herky jerky driving like autocross, but it will probably not handle as well with high speed corners and the like.

e.g. You want a big rear bar on most autocross courses to get the car to rotate, but that same big bar would not inspire confidence on a road course.
Well I can't argue with your point, and it's likely you're right. I'm just curious if the whole natural suspension frequency stuff applies to high-speed track racing as well as autocross. Because if it does then to make your car amazing at autocross and high-speed tracks all you need to do is measure your suspension and do some math. It could be that you do the same calculations, but want your suspension to have a different natural frequency for autocross vs track.

Anyways, it's rumored that the next golf is supposed to drop 200 lbs from the regular golf, so maybe that will translate to the R. Seems to be a similar situation with the next gen WRX/STI, where the current impreza dropped 200lbs so speculation is the WRX/STI will as well.

Anybody know if the extra power is due to just a tune change? I'm sure you can comment on this scrappy, but I was under the impression that the R showed huge (evo-esque) gains with just a tune. If it's a larger turbo then the power gains with a tune on the new one could be enormous.
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:20 PM   #448
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I am not even worried about how it compares to the WRX/STI. In interior trim it will not even be a competition. In acceleration, it will be quicker than my car which is quick enough to make me smile and get me into trouble as it is. The seats in my car are amazing and make me smile every day. Whether it does 0-60 in 5.5, 5.2, 5.0, 4.9, who cares. The mid range torque and ability to happily pull to 7k rpm is fun.
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #449
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Fair enough, we do not have to agree, I respect your opinion and your assessment of your car. I can only offer you my opinion based on a 2011 hatch vs golf R ownership. But it is still an opinion.



The golf R has forged internals, reworked heads, and.... mmm let me see if I can find the article exerpt.

High-tech turbocharged engine
The Golf R's 1984-cc engine was subjected to a motorsports-style development program. The following components were modified or completely redesigned compared to the GTI engine: the cylinder head (together with exhaust valves, valve seats, and springs), pistons, high-pressure injection valves, and turbocharger.
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:36 PM   #450
mrkyle3
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 272675
Join Date: Feb 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: West Haven, CT
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
2002 Corvette Z06

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Fair enough, we do not have to agree, I respect your opinion and your assessment of your car. I can only offer you my opinion based on a 2011 hatch vs golf R ownership. But it is still an opinion.



The golf R has forged internals, reworked heads, and.... mmm let me see if I can find the article exerpt.

High-tech turbocharged engine
The Golf R’s 1984-cc engine was subjected to a motorsports-style development program. The following components were modified or completely redesigned compared to the GTI engine: the cylinder head (together with exhaust valves, valve seats, and springs), pistons, high-pressure injection valves, and turbocharger.
I was agreeing with you ... About the last post anyways

I was referring to the power increase from current golf R to next golf R. Power is supposedly going up quite a bit, and I was wondering if that's just a tune change or what.

Right now I'm a Subaru fan but in ten years when I'm looking for another car who knows, maybe I'll be going for the more mature car like you have done. Gotta keep up with the changes
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