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Old 11-25-2018, 08:48 PM   #1
Booki
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Default EJ25 Stock rebuild Questions - Honing and bore coatings?

Have a engine with a spun bearing (of course)

Looking at doing a stock rebuild, nothing crazy - just something reliable.

Plan on using Enginetech components for rings/bearings - plan to reuse original pistons they do not appear damaged.

Was talking to my machinist who does my cylinder heads and was discussing honing on the EJ25 block.

What is the best method to use?
Are these bores coated with a Nikasil ?

I have only worked with a cast iron block in the past - so not sure what the best method for a hone is.

Am I able to just hone it myself with your typical 3 stone style hone?

I am also assuming that the Enginetech rings will be a chrome style top ring - meaning a hone should be required for it to bed in correctly?
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Old 11-28-2018, 11:02 PM   #2
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Bump...
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:00 AM   #3
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If you can still see the crosshatching on the cylinder bores, DO NOT HONE THE ENGINE. Put in new, quality, piston rings and put it back together.

Now, LINE BORING the crankshaft journals (with torque plates bolted on) would be a great idea.
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:28 AM   #4
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Can I ask why if the pistons are being reused, and the rings have already been seated in the bores, why not just replaced the bearings and be done? Assuming you're measuring the new bearings to make sure the case is still usable.

Was there a lot of blowby?
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Old 11-29-2018, 12:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbletop View Post
Can I ask why if the pistons are being reused, and the rings have already been seated in the bores, why not just replaced the bearings and be done? Assuming you're measuring the new bearings to make sure the case is still usable.

Was there a lot of blowby?
+1

If there wasnt drinking oil i would just suggest measuring for new bearings if the mains arent scuffed up and just replace the mains and put everything back together
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by wobbletop View Post
Can I ask why if the pistons are being reused, and the rings have already been seated in the bores, why not just replaced the bearings and be done? Assuming you're measuring the new bearings to make sure the case is still usable.

Was there a lot of blowby?


The engine was in unknown condition, was purchased "as is" so my thinking was to give it a refresh. Measure everything, give it a hone and put in fresh rings on the original pistons after cleaning them up.

Is this not a good way to go about it a stock rebuild?

Thought it was pretty common practice to re-hone/re-ring

Last edited by Booki; 11-29-2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:16 PM   #7
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Re-hone it mate the new cross hatching seats the rings.
There is a science behind which style hatching suits best too. Your machinist will know the drill.
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripman View Post
Re-hone it mate the new cross hatching seats the rings.
There is a science behind which style hatching suits best too. Your machinist will know the drill.
I'll say it again for the folks in the back...

DO NOT HONE THE CYLINDER WALLS! Yes, if the engine is drinking oil, by all means, DO replace the rings, but DO NOT hone the cylinders.

Further reading here.

Last edited by car_freak85; 11-30-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
I'll say it again for the folks in the back...

DO NOT HONE THE CYLINDER WALLS! Yes, if the engine is drinking oil, by all means, DO replace the rings, but DO NOT hone the cylinders.

Further reading here.
Interesting and informative read.. Some good info from that builder.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:54 PM   #10
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Make sure to buy two of everything for when you have to rebuild it again later.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by GK1707 View Post
Interesting and informative read.. Some good info from that builder.
He was a lifesaver when I was researching the HG procedure for our EJ253.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:48 PM   #12
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Cool info in that link! Glad I saw it before ever getting the chance to build my own EJ.

One thing about replacing the rings - does Total Seal make a set of "gapless" rings for Subie engines? Seems as though that'd be a great way to eliminate blowby and extend the usable life of your engine oil. Plus that better seal would improve power and efficiency some.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:55 PM   #13
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After being in the Subaru game for over 14 years, my advice. Buy a brand new OEM EJ257 short block and don't waste your time and money trying to rebuild what you have.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:22 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
I'll say it again for the folks in the back...

DO NOT HONE THE CYLINDER WALLS! Yes, if the engine is drinking oil, by all means, DO replace the rings, but DO NOT hone the cylinders.

Further reading here.
Strangely general advice. Use at your own peril.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by slow.wagon View Post
Strangely general advice. Use at your own peril.
Well....
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow.wagon View Post
Strangely general advice. Use at your own peril.
Did you read the link, or just what I typed?
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:16 PM   #17
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I feel my case might be a little different - I do not know the engine condition other than it spun a rod bearing.

The cross hatching still is easily visible and cylinder bore taper is very low.

So just a new set of rings and she will be ok ?
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:33 PM   #18
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If you're going to be splitting the block halves to resurface/replace the crankshaft, you might as well just buy a new short block from Subaru at that point and save yourself the trouble of line boring the main journals, etc, etc, etc.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:00 PM   #19
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That may be true, but this is going to be a budget rebuild.

I know budget and rebuild don't normally go together, but in this case I will try my best.

If my goal was for longevity, I would be considering all the options mentioned in the thread so far.

But that is just a basic, stock power budget rebuild.

A set of rings and bearings costs about $100. $100 + misc items vs $2500 for a short block is a big difference. I am not expecting to have the same life as a brand new short block, but anything over 100k miles I would call a success
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booki View Post
I am not expecting to have the same life as a brand new short block, but anything over 100k miles I would call a success
I will be impressed if you get half that mileage out of a budget rebuild. Best of luck, be sure to report back here what happens in either case.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
I will be impressed if you get half that mileage out of a budget rebuild. Best of luck, be sure to report back here what happens in either case.
I agree, most shops blow it (literally and figuratively) on Subaru short block rebuilds, including high buck ones. You are better off getting a brand new OEM SB or a great condition used motor that has never been opened up.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
After being in the Subaru game for over 14 years, my advice. Buy a brand new OEM EJ257 short block and don't waste your time and money trying to rebuild what you have.
Ths is good advice.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
Did you read the link, or just what I typed?
I did visit the link. I simply do not agree with the information. No evidence was submitted or implied. It is all word of mouth. This explanation better supports your claim:

http://www.snowvalley.20m.com/bikes/dnthone.htm

However, even that one lacks the scientific rigor for me to believe it either. It is far more convincing, but as far as I am concerned, it presents no more evidence than your original reference.

These on the other hand probably do present evidence to support your claim but I am not willing buy these papers only to win or loose an argument on a forum.

https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2014-01-1660/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...50650118774395

This one is also interesting but doesn't directly support your hypothesis.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/ge...FULLTEXT01.pdf

The point is, use real sources when citing things and arriving at conclusions. Word of mouth and other forums are not proof of anything other than opinion and circumstance.
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Old 01-02-2019, 04:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow.wagon View Post
No evidence was submitted or implied. It is all word of mouth...

...it presents no more evidence than your original reference...

The point is, use real sources when citing things and arriving at conclusions. Word of mouth and other forums are not proof of anything other than opinion and circumstance.
I understand what you're saying but GeneralDisorder, the guy I'm referencing in the link, runs his own repair shop and has first hand experience with many hundreds of engine rebuilds.

Sure, there isn't a lot of "science" in that thread, but this is his first-hand experience from the front lines of repair, not two silly guys barking at each other over the internet. You can never discount first hand experience, and he has as much as anyone out there.

I'll see if I can access those SAE articles from work, we have a subscription.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:47 PM   #25
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That was a good read...the advise i was always given is if its apart put your own crosshatch in to ensure proper seal...have done many other rebuilds from various manufacturers but i do agree that cost for new vs rehone/rebore being the same just get a new one that needs no time/money on checking all items and risking the whole thing...being a budget build with tons of time into it measure a lot to make sure its on point! gl!
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