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Old 01-22-2017, 07:03 PM   #1
Special J
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Default 06 2.5i (over)build

For the usual swap "advice" dummies:
I don't want a turbo, I don't want to swap anything else into it. I have no goals other than discovery. I've been on this board and others for years, with a constant stream of talk about getting power out of the EJ253. I'm tired of conjecture, I have the money required to try it, and I really want to see what would happen. This way, I get to see what would happen, and then I get to drive it every day. It's a win/win for me. So keep your swaps and bolt-on forced induction.

On the money involved:
I bought this car new in November 05. I did the head gaskets and timing kit, swapped out the heads for 08s with Delta 1000 grinds, and switched to e85 at 150k, then drove it another 100k. It's been paid off for seven years, and is still in great shape. I'm going to dump 5-6k into it now, sure, but if you spread that out over the seven years since I had a payment, plus the five more I plan to get out of it, it's about $50/month. I can handle that no problem. So don't bother telling me to save my money, or about return on investment.


So here we go.


My 06 OBS blew the motor a couple months ago. I haven't pulled it yet, because it's at work about 130 miles away from home, but the damage is significant. The timing belt is wrapped around the crank pulley, bulging out the belt cover. I think I either lifted the passenger head or windowed the block on the passenger side, because it was dumping oil and coolant from over there. I'm positive I destroyed at least some (but probably all) of my bearings, because I pulled 1.1G through a 270-degree, constant-radius, banked, uphill turn, and it started knocking right after. Got a couple more miles out of it, then all the fluids made their exodus.


Fast forward to today: my spare block is being prepped at IAG Performance in MD. The plan thus far is for:

(None of this has been on the car yet except the exhaust, ecu, and fuel pump, so no worries about bearing material in the oil.)

06 EJ257 block bored out to 99.75mm
line honed and pinned mains
o-ringed deck
machined out for 1/2" ARP head studs
ARP head studs
11mm stock STi oil pump
TWE 13:1 forged pistons
Stock STi rods, balanced
Stock STi crank, polished
King bearings
07 EJ253 SOHC heads
+1mm valves
stainless springs and titanium retainers
Delta 1000 cams (for now, because I have them)
TWE HO 4-2-1 long-tube header, no cat, 2.5" at the midpipe
2.5" midpipe, STi stock axleback
Cometic head gasket
Moroso oil pan and pickup tube, stock or KillerB windage tray
Stock WRX injectors
Walbro 255lph fuel pump
Stock ECU with RomRaider/ECUFlash tuning
8000RPM redline
e85 only

It's e85-only because it's available all over Cleveland (where I live), Columbus (where I work), and enough places between that I'll never need to use gas. Since I have a dependable supply of e85, I decided to swing for the fences on compression ratio and really squeeze everything I can out of the fuel. The car ran on e85 for 100k before I blew it up, and that was self-tuned.

I have no specific power or torque numbers in mind. I'm overbuilding the block, cranking the heads down hard, dumping in a ton of fuel, tuning the pi$$ out of it, and winding it out as far as the valves will let me; whatever happens, happens.


Progress thus far:
IAG reports the block is good once bored and honed. Crank is good once polished.
Pistons have been paid for and are being made


Parts I have (or have paid for:
block
crank
rods
pistons
fuel pump
heads
cams
valvetrain
oil pan
pickup
windage tray
header
oil pump
head studs
bearings

Parts I need to buy/find:
injectors
gasket set
timing belt kit


What I could use some feedback on:

1. I'll need this thing tuned after assembly, break-in, and MAF scaling. Anybody with firsthand experience of an in-person NA tune that went well, tell me all about it. Don't care where, I'll drive to get it done right.

2. Clutch and (somewhat) lightweight flywheel. I'm planning on replacing the clutch, flywheel, and everything while I'm in there. I'm looking for suggestions on a good setup for a daily driver that can handle some abuse. I don't mind a stiff pedal, or a touchy transition. But I don't need sintered iron.

3. Anything else I may have missed.


Thanks for anything anybody can contribute. I'll update this post as stuff changes.

Josh


edit: moving stuff from "need" section to "have" section.
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Last edited by Special J; 05-26-2020 at 05:13 PM. Reason: Moving stuff from “need” to “have”.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:28 AM   #2
GEE-OTTO
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I wonder if you can get a refund on those pistons and stop IAG from prepping that block?
In lieu you should consider:

-fuel surge tank setup with a beefy pump
-injectors ID1000cc or larger
-13:1 will not want to idle anywhere near normal with a 1000 grind and since peak power wont come in until well into the RPM you might as well go with a 2000 grind which im not sure is optimal for 13:1. I guess you have idea about where you the power to be so talk to TWE or your tuner to lock that down.
-If IAG is building you block have them do your tuning they will know the background on the block and have an idea where to start with things like timing trims, fuel table adjustments etc. They may even cut you some slack if you keep it all in house.
-Clutch wise ACT is it for now and they have never been the best maybe you could run a FWSBL02FF and higher stage clutch pack I know the OE is rated at 196 for both hp and trq they have a few higher stages with a higher clamping force or you could call Bully Clutch see what they can do
-Really will want a large budget for tuning as that will be all trial and error even with known measurements
-Which heads are you going to run?
-13:1 is the limits I would say even with e85 in a an EJ


Now if you want to go to 11ish:1 you may enjoy a longer lasting engine

Last edited by GEE-OTTO; 01-24-2017 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:31 AM   #3
Charlie-III
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Man after my own heart. Your list looks good to me thus far.

Flywheel, I stick to about 12lbs to avoid misfire issues, I will assume later engines have the same issue earlier ones had when you start getting much under that weight. I have used ACT as well as Exedy Chromoly forged, usually stick to Exedy though.
Clutch, I use ACT street clutches (mine is a push type clutch) to good effect.
I actually recently bought a Exedy flywheel and ACT clutch for my Legacy from Rallysport direct for when I do some major trans work.
Took part of a day to get used to:
-low pedal clutch engagement
-quick clutch grab
-reduced flywheel inertia
Overall, I like it and have done similar on multiple cars with good results. My car is a DD that gets time in NYC traffic so I understand driveability.
Clutch effort is not much more than stock with stock master and slave cylinders.
You may want to look for a SS clutch line, partly since yours has some age as well as you're putting a bit more load on it.

Check on the type of oil pickup you have, I have read some of the newer ones had a cracking issue and there are a couple aftermarket suppliers of modified/upgraded pickups out there. IIRC KillerB was one vemdor?

I went for 90 octane, that is reasonable around here in availability and price, plus our "winter gas" can suck?

My old build (I hope to redo it this spring) was a Crawford STi block with 11:1 pistons, Cobb P&P DOHC NA heads, Cobb street cams, titanium spring retainers (Ferra?), Cobb EL headers/high flow CAT/CATback, AEM wideband, flywheel/clutch I mentioned before. I also had done some work to the intake tract and intake manifold.
No tuning since I have an older MAF based ECU so it learned well. This time around, I may get a piggyback for AFR's depending on what it runs like.

Good luck on the build.
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Old 01-23-2017, 04:07 PM   #4
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sounds awesome.
but if you are going to run DEDICATED E85 13:1 isn't enough. it will work just fine, but if you're already in there, you could do better.

if you can get more compression, by any means necessary...do it. E85 will take 15:1 when tuned right, and since you are building an RPM engine you likely won't be spending all that much time at the low-RPM range where knock usually happens.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:28 PM   #5
Garret 2010i
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Sounds like a great build! Tom at TWE built me a similar motor a few years ago now, and it's still pulling stong. I wish I could get e85 here, I went with his 11.3:1 pistons and head work. the motor is octane crazy, and the 94 i get here still doesnt make the motor happy enough.
MAF scaling isnt that tuff, rom raider has biult in programs that go a long way. its the injector scaling that will make you hate life. all your start up, tip in, latency tables will need to be adjusted. it took work, lol.
as for a clutch, i went with a lightweight act flywheel and best na clutch i could get, and it didnt last long. the 310 holding capacity wasnt enough. i had to go with a wrx flywheel and pad. the pressure plate is na cuz of the difference in pull vs push type of wrx vs na.
keep us posted!
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:04 PM   #6
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Good for you doing this. I hate turbos and turbo engines, NA all the way! I cant really offer anything except encouragement to this build. Subscribed for the outcome!
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:19 PM   #7
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Do you have the TWE header yet? I have one that I'm replacing soon (my car is now turbo) and I'm sending it back to TWE to have a small repair done and possibly have it ceramic coated and made like new again. This is an older 4-1 design that he doesn't really make anymore because it's too complicated.

Let me know if you're interested.

Either way, fun build.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:32 AM   #8
Special J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
Do you have the TWE header yet? I have one that I'm replacing soon (my car is now turbo) and I'm sending it back to TWE to have a small repair done and possibly have it ceramic coated and made like new again. This is an older 4-1 design that he doesn't really make anymore because it's too complicated.

Let me know if you're interested.

Either way, fun build.
I don't have the header yet. Tom at TWE has a new design for the 2.5i that he wants to try out, so I'm going to guinea pig that for him. I appreciate the offer, though. I doubt you'll have trouble getting yours sold around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO View Post

-fuel surge tank setup with a beefy pump
-injectors ID1000cc or larger
-13:1 will not want to idle anywhere near normal with a 1000 grind and since peak power wont come in until well into the RPM you might as well go with a 2000 grind which im not sure is optimal for 13:1. I guess you have idea about where you the power to be so talk to TWE or your tuner to lock that down.
-If IAG is building you block have them do your tuning they will know the background on the block and have an idea where to start with things like timing trims, fuel table adjustments etc. They may even cut you some slack if you keep it all in house.
-Clutch wise ACT is it for now and they have never been the best maybe you could run a FWSBL02FF and higher stage clutch pack I know the OE is rated at 196 for both hp and trq they have a few higher stages with a higher clamping force or you could call Bully Clutch see what they can do
-Really will want a large budget for tuning as that will be all trial and error even with known measurements
-Which heads are you going to run?
-13:1 is the limits I would say even with e85 in a an EJ
Thanks for the clutch tips (you too, Charlie-III).

1000cc injectors seem like a bit much. I'm going to see what my IDC looks like on the WRX stockers and go from there. I'm already running a Walbro 255 pump.

My heads are Delta stgII ported ej253s with +1mm valves, Supertech springs and titanium retainers. They have Delta 1000 grind cams now, but I'm calling Delta today about a new grind. I have two sets of 1000s and two virgin stock sets, and I'm planning to keep one stock pair, one 1000 pair, and have the other stockers ground to something that'll take advantage of my fuel, static compression ratio, redline, head/header flow, etc. I can swap them out as needed. I'm aware that my idle is going to have to be somewhere north of 1k RPM.

I am planning a big tuning budget, but I'm going to get it a good bit of the way there myself. IAG is my default for tuning, unless somebody chimes in with a rave review of somebody else.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:14 PM   #9
Garret 2010i
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id like to see a pic of that new header. i didnt go with his exhaust cuz of the price. had to save money some where
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Old 01-26-2017, 12:56 AM   #10
Special J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garret 2010i View Post
id like to see a pic of that new header. i didnt go with his exhaust cuz of the price. had to save money some where
Sounds like you need to PM Zefy from a couple posts up.


Minor update: the Delta 1000 grinds are just about all that can be done with what little base circle there is on the 2.5i cams. I'm looking into other options for those, some crazy, some merely crazy expensive. Add camshafts to the list of things I could use some advice about.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:56 AM   #11
Garret 2010i
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cam is the place to spend the money and get a really good one. i have the stage 2 from twe and it is a good cam, for what we have it's a little lacking. i've been thinking about getting tom to make me a stage 3 for a while now. his stage 2 only makes power till about 6300, fine for a mild build...
the torque curve on his cams are amazing too.
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Old 01-31-2017, 02:33 AM   #12
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Subscribed!
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:30 PM   #13
Special J
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Still waiting on the pistons. Wiseco has been a bit of a pain in Tom's ass about them. Paid for the header, oil pan, pickup, and pump today. The project is taking longer than I'd like, but that's life.
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:57 PM   #14
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what intake are you planning on using?

THe EJ253 stock intake is a monster for flow but the runners are very, very long.
maybe worthwhile to find the designed peak power range for those cams, do some backwards math, and modify a spare 253 intake (chop and weld a new plenum with shortened runners) to be more suited for that rpm range for a tuned boost of power.
the looong headers youve got should help smooth power delivery through the lower rev range while not choking out up top.

i dont know anything about those cams - do they let you keep AVCS or are they locked out?
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:34 PM   #15
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Tom is a great guy and makes awesome parts, but you have to wait for them. I had to wait 4 months for my header when the initial delivery was 2 weeks. It's worth the wait, but just keep poking him for updates.
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Old 07-11-2017, 10:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special J View Post
Still waiting on the pistons. Wiseco has been a bit of a pain in Tom's ass about them. Paid for the header, oil pan, pickup, and pump today. The project is taking longer than I'd like, but that's life.

Have you considered a + 2mm or + 4mm long rod build ? As a high RPM NA build would be the best use of a long rod (even some turbo builds are using long rod)
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:59 AM   #17
Special J
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The intake plan thus far has been stock '06, because I already have it and it's decent. The cams keep AVCS, but maaaaan, those TWE stage III SOHC cam sets are tempting me. I guess the smart thing to do would be to run the ones I have and order the TWEs, because they'll get here about the time the new motor build is due for a rebuild.

binny, I'm not sure if I can stuff a longer rod in there with these pistons. But now that you mention it, it can't hurt to talk to Tom about it. Thanks for that.

J
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:26 PM   #18
Special J
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Just ordered the clutch kit and flywheel. I went with ACT, their prolite flywheel (10.5lbs), and an sb2-hdg6 kit, which consists of their heavy-duty pressure plate, a sprung, six-puck race disk, and the throwout bearing, pilot bearing, and alignment tool.

I'll be getting the studs, gasket kit, and bearings from IAG when they build the thing. Probably also the timing belt and components (water pump, pulleys, etc). All I have left to source are the injectors and all the stuff I've forgotten.

J
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:50 AM   #19
Garret 2010i
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i went with deatschwerks injectors for my build. sti 565cc... there are a little over kill, injector judy doesn't go above 48% now. how do you plan to tune it?
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garret 2010i View Post
i went with deatschwerks injectors for my build. sti 565cc... there are a little over kill, injector judy doesn't go above 48% now. how do you plan to tune it?
a "little overkill"?
though they say "overkill is under rated"...at least you know youll NEVER run lean
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Old 07-29-2017, 09:26 PM   #21
Special J
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RomRaider for the initial tune, then whatever IAG uses (if they end up doing the tuning). I haven't talked to them about tuning except briefly when this whole thing first started. Don't know if they even want to tune an N/A car. But if they do and can, they're my first choice, both for their overall awesomeness thus far and the fact that they'll know more about the motor than even I do by the time it's running.

I'm still undecided on the injectors. I needed ca. 30% more volume than stock with just the e85 switch, but with the increased intake/exhaust flow, bigger valves, ported heads, and higher redline, I'm not sure how much, or which hardware, to go with. I want to have enough flow with some overhead for really cold days, obviously, but I don't want a day-to-day duty cycle of like 3%, because it feels like that would have an impact on the spray pattern, droplet size, tau puddle, and a bunch of other stuff that's all still kinda fuzzy in my head thus far (I'm not an expert).

Dunno. Opinions welcomed. Sought, even. Haaalp.

J
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Old 07-29-2017, 11:28 PM   #22
Garret 2010i
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there is another guy kicking around with similar builds like ours, he went with the 440. much better fit i think. at idle my duty cycle drops to 1-1.5 %. i was worried about it at first, but after 30,000+ miles ive had no issues with fuelling. at any RPM.
and that 48% is at 7500 RPM. its not as over kills as it sounds, you don't want to go above 80% with injectors.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:24 PM   #23
Special J
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Yeah, I was concerned about 48% being a little low. I don't want to push them too close to static, but a bit closer than that. I think I'll give the 440s a shot. Thanks.

When I changed to and tuned for e85, I did it in Denver, where I lived at the time. I was pushing timing pretty far, and had the stockers running in the low 90s. I forgot about it on a trip to Cleveland (back down to sea level), then remembered and did a little logging: 120% duty cycle when pushed. I'm not in a hurry to repeat that.

J

Last edited by Special J; 08-05-2017 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:57 AM   #24
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ive seen people posting DC over 100% but that doesn't make sense to me...
how can an injector be open more than 100% of the time?

...or, is the injector sitting WFO at 100% but the ECU has calculated it "needs" 120% to get to the target afr so that's what is reporting...aka you are running lean?
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Old 08-07-2017, 05:25 PM   #25
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How much power do you think it will make? I am just guessing somewhere in the mid 200s?

This thing is pretty good

http://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-cal...tor-calculator

I think you'd have a hard time pushing the limits of 420/440's on an NA motor but there is not much (anything?) between stock and the 420's that are cheap and readily available and well documented. The nice thing about those 420s is they are cheap and the injector latency numbers are easy to find.

EDIT I guess E85 bumps that injector requirement up quite a bit but still within 90% duty cycle for 250hp on a NA motor on the 420cc's.

Last edited by pcampbell; 08-07-2017 at 06:01 PM.
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