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Old 09-10-2019, 04:18 PM   #1
MAD WRX
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Default Next Gen WRX / STI

Hey guys, was curious how many of you are holding out on upgrading until the next gen WRX / STI is announced / released?
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:20 PM   #2
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Hey guys, was curious how many of you are holding out on upgrading until the next gen WRX / STI is announced / released?
I'm going to wait. The global platform is supposedly light years better than what we currently have so I'm in the position that I can wait a year, or two, or three.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:38 PM   #3
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I wanted one now so I didnít hold out.

If itís that good, Iíll upgrade.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:38 PM   #4
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I still daily my 2002 wrx with 233,000 miles and will do so until the government forces me to take it off the road.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:03 PM   #5
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I still daily my 2002 wrx with 233,000 miles and will do so until the government forces me to take it off the road.
well played.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:27 PM   #6
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Almost 24 year old chassis straight and strong. And I'll put a whoopin on the next gen, just like I do with current and previous gen.

It's cool, go spend 40k on a new car with fancy features like power windows, power locks, AC, and a stereo.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:38 PM   #7
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Buy one now, then wait 4 years for the mid-cycle refresh.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:51 PM   #8
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It all depends on what your intended use of the new car...do you want a fast daily driver that you will never mod, or do you plan on modding and tuning the vehicle? I ask because chances are the new platform will be Direct Injection, smaller displacement, and dare I say "cheaper" under the hood (plastic intake manifold vs. aluminum, etc...). These may not be a concern for someone who won't want to modify the car, but for those looking to boost the car....expect substantially higher costs to modify the car. Yes, I am sure stock it will be a blast to drive and be more powerful than the EJ25's, but in the long run, will it be a better platform for upgrades? Personal experience with Direct Injection cars, they are difficult to tune, cost way more to modify, and overall incorporate technology to improve fuel efficiency and weight rather than durability and reliability. People talk **** about the EJ25, but it's a proven platform for modding and tuners have them dialed in (tuning, parts, etc...). Let's all pray the carbon build-up of the DI motor won't be too embarrassing. Just my two cents...
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:13 PM   #9
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^^^^

Well considering that the FA20 in the 15+wrx has plenty of mod support, and if what people are saying is true about getting the fa24 in the next gen STI, then we'll have a solid basis of tuning/engine platform. The Fa20 has loads of aftermarket support and there are already big name tuners specific that have made a name for themselves specific to the FA.
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:22 PM   #10
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Personal experience with Direct Injection cars, they are difficult to tune, cost way more to modify, and overall incorporate technology to improve fuel efficiency and weight rather than durability and reliability. People talk **** about the EJ25, but it's a proven platform for modding and tuners have them dialed in (tuning, parts, etc...).
The FA engine will be more efficient due to modern technology with the added benefit of fuel efficiency. It'll have a better powerband (more area under the curve) and a higher specific output.

Modern cars are heavy, but that has little to do with the engine (look at the current STI & WRX curb weights). Modern engines are actually lighter in most cases.

The cost of modification really depends on what your end goal is. For less than $2k, you can modify the FA20 to 320+ whp with only an AccessPort, flex fuel kit & tune. You can't make that level of power on the EJ257 for that price. You'll have to upgrade the fuel system first.
If you want to go over 400 whp then you'll want to build the blocks of both engines.
Over 500 whp, the fuel injectors are the limitation of the current FA platform. You have to add auxiliary port injection to push further.
Overall, I wouldn't say that the FA is more expensive to modify than the EJ. They're both relatively expensive to modify.

The FA has been pretty reliable so far. I'm not saying that it's Toyota level reliable, but keep in mind the EJ's oil issues, ringland failures and the rod bearing settlement... it wasn't still isn't perfect after 15 years. The FA suffers from LSPI (common for turbocharged DI engines) and bends rods at higher power levels. The EJ & FA engines both have their strengths and weaknesses. I'm not saying the EJ is a bad engine, it's just old and inefficient by today's standards.

Any manufacturer can solve carbon build-up by adding dual injection (DI & port injection) like the BRZ has to wash the valves. Dual injection has other advantages as well. However, Toyota owns the D-4S dual injection system used in the twins so we're unlikely to see it on the next STI.

Tuners have had over 15 years to develop parts & tunes for the EJ257. The FA20DIT has only been around for 5 years (and only in the WRX). Give it some time. There's already a lot of aftermarket support and there will be an even higher demand for parts once the FA is in both the WRX & STI.

Edit: I may have felt differently about the FA vs EJ debate if we got the EJ207 instead of the EJ257.. but we didn't.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-11-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:15 PM   #11
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Direct Injection completely gets rid of the injectors in the runners, and puts them directly in the combustion chamber....resulting in dramatically more carbon build up around the valves. I know this, because my cousin is a Master Tech for Subaru and I have seen several FA motors he has taken apart with much more gunky valves as compared to an EJ motors. I am not saying the FA is a crap platform, I know its a good foundation....but, we can't overlook the negatives of the Direct Injection engines and their long term reliability and driveability. I had a 2008 Lexus IS350 when that had Direct Injection. Toyota was clever enough to give that motor 12 injectors (6 direct injectors and 6 port-runner injectors). This helped with carbon buildup around the valves, but never eliminated it....and to this day people still go in to Lexus for "top end cleaning" because of it. It bothered me so much, I sold the car for that reason. The IS250's were even worse because they only had DI. Like I said, it all depends on your goals for the car. Personally, I would take a non-DI car any day over a DI-car....especially for long term reliability and driveability. It's why the GTR to this day still uses port injection and not DI ;-p

Porsche's have DI and are FAST ASF....yet, take one of those engines apart and you will quickly see why DI isn't as great as people make it out to be.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:11 PM   #12
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"Port runner injectors" are what the EJ257 has. They wash the back of the intake valves in the same fashion. Dual injection is direct + port injection.

You'll still have some build-up on valves regardless of the type of fuel injector is used. You'll have minimal build-up as long as you have port injection (alone or dual injection).

Does your Subaru master tech have any pictures of 'gunky' valves from the BRZ's FA20D with D-4S dual injection? Hint: Carbon build-up isn't a problem for the BRZ.
Can he elaborate on the reliability and durability issues specific to DI? Carbon build-up is a maintenance item..

The GTR doesn't have direct injection because it was released in 2008 and has a 10+ year old engine. I'm sure it will have DI if and when they redesign the engine. Every modern engine is moving to DI.

Care to share some pictures of the disassembled "FAST ASF" Porsche DI engines?

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-11-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:33 PM   #13
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:11 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post


"Port runner injectors" are what the EJ257 has. They wash the back of the intake valves in the same fashion. Dual injection is direct + port injection.

You'll still have some build-up on valves regardless of the type of fuel injector is used. You'll have minimal build-up as long as you have port injection (alone or dual injection).

Does your Subaru master tech have any pictures of 'gunky' valves from the BRZ's FA20D with D-4S dual injection? Hint: Carbon build-up isn't a problem for the BRZ.
Can he elaborate on the reliability and durability issues specific to DI? Carbon build-up is a maintenance item..

The GTR doesn't have direct injection because it was released in 2008 and has a 10+ year old engine. I'm sure it will have DI if and when they redesign the engine. Every modern engine is moving to DI.

Care to share some pictures of the disassembled "FAST ASF" Porsche DI engines?
I know that the EJ257 has port injection and not direct injection....that is why i am saying it's better for the valves. Look at the valvetrain reliability of any DI car nowadays, they are not too good.

DI was out before 2008 when the GTR was out....why didn't Nissan take on this technology back then while DI was still somewhat popular? The Z is in the same boat...why didn't it take on DI. DI is great for fuel economy and efficiency yes I get that....but in terms of creating more issue inside the motor, DI is notorious for making a mess of the valves, intake runners, throttle bodies, etc... Next time I am at my cousins dealership, and another FA is apart, I will gladly take a picture.

Google is your friend:

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-build-up.html

Again, DI has it's advantages of making power, and fuel economy. In terms of higher chance of issues related to carbon buildup, yeah you bet your @$$ it will!

Mark my words, there will be a section on NASIOC for the future STI model called "Carbon Build-up Issue(s)" when the new car comes out.

Last edited by xX_STI_Xx; 09-11-2019 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:32 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx View Post
I know that the EJ257 has port injection and not direct injection....that is why i am saying it's better for the valves. Look at the valvetrain reliability of any DI car nowadays, they are not too good.

DI was out before 2008 when the GTR was out....why didn't Nissan take on this technology back then while DI was still somewhat popular? The Z is in the same boat...why didn't it take on DI. DI is great for fuel economy and efficiency yes I get that....but in terms of creating more issue inside the motor, DI is notorious for making a mess of the valves, intake runners, throttle bodies, etc... Next time I am at my cousins dealership, and another FA is apart, I will gladly take a picture.

Google is your friend:

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-build-up.html

Again, DI has it's advantages of making power, and fuel economy. In terms of higher chance of issues related to carbon buildup, yeah you bet you @$$ it will!

Mark my words, there will be a section on NASIOC for the future STI model called "Carbon Build-up Issue(s)" when the new car comes out.
LOL

Have you even read anything that I've said or linked to? I specifically said that dual injection, like the BRZ's D-4S, can prevent carbon build-up.

Direct injection alone experiences carbon build-up.. I acknowledged that.

I asked how direct injection is a reliability or durability issue. No answer.

I pointed out that dual injection (direct & port) can solve the problem of carbon build-up. You argued that "Toyota motor" had dual injection and still had carbon build-up without providing any evidence. You then proceeded to ignore the articles that I provided...

Carbon build-up is a maintenance issue that can be prevented by dual injection. A mess on the intake manifold runners, throttle bodies, etc.? lol Can you explain how direct injection manages to do that? Hmm.. I guess port injectors shoot upstream (against vacuum) to clean those

And because I can't help it.. just like the GTR, when was the Z's engine designed again? Direct injection wasn't mainstream in 2008. Porsche and Ferrari only began to implement it in a couple of their engines in 2009...

Please don't spread false information.

Will the STI's FA have carbon build-up? That solely relies on if Subaru implements direct injection alone or dual injection (highly unlikely).
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx View Post
Mark my words, there will be a section on NASIOC for the future STI model called "Carbon Build-up Issue(s)" when the new car comes out.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2756556

I know you think this is all mind-blowing and new information for us, it isnt. This has been a known issue since the platform came out.

There are no long term reliability issues with carbon buildup, it just requires preventative maintenance every 50-60k miles. It's a $500 service at most shops, that's cheaper than a set of tires. BMW, Lexus, Ford, Mazda, all use DI in several of their engines, including the Focus RS and multiple Mustang models. Nissan uses DI on their Juke model, Infiniti just released a DI motor they referred to as the most advanced Infiniti V6 engine ever.

Please, research and stop mindlessly posting dribble.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by MAD WRX View Post
Hey guys, was curious how many of you are holding out on upgrading until the next gen WRX / STI is announced / released?
Not me, bought a 2019 WRX Limited while keeping my 16 STI. I will probably get another STI when the next gen comes out while keeping both my current STI and WRX.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:10 PM   #18
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You make up (by quite some margin) the cost of maintenance/walnut blasting for the FA DIT just by fuel savings over the EJ...
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:25 PM   #19
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For me, considering how inconsistent the throttle response is on my WRX's FA20, especially in temps above 70F even with CobbAP, I would not care if my EJ consumes more fuel. I much rather have the consistent throttle response of the EJ over the FA20.

Now hopefully by the time the next gen STI comes out with maybe a DIT engine, that will be resolved.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
LOL

Have you even read anything that I've said or linked to? I specifically said that dual injection, like the BRZ's D-4S, can prevent carbon build-up.

Direct injection alone experiences carbon build-up.. I acknowledged that.

I asked how direct injection is a reliability or durability issue. No answer.

I pointed out that dual injection (direct & port) can solve the problem of carbon build-up. You argued that "Toyota motor" had dual injection and still had carbon build-up without providing any evidence. You then proceeded to ignore the articles that I provided...

Carbon build-up is a maintenance issue that can be prevented by dual injection. A mess on the intake manifold runners, throttle bodies, etc.? lol Can you explain how direct injection manages to do that? Hmm.. I guess port injectors shoot upstream (against vacuum) to clean those

And because I can't help it.. just like the GTR, when was the Z's engine designed again? Direct injection wasn't mainstream in 2008. Porsche and Ferrari only began to implement it in a couple of their engines in 2009...

Please don't spread false information.

Will the STI's FA have carbon build-up? That solely relies on if Subaru implements direct injection alone or dual injection (highly unlikely).
Don't get your panties in a bunch, no false information here. You are the one bringing up D4-S (a Toyota tech) in a thread about the next STI that will have ZERO affiliation with Toyota. Bottom line is, a DI motor will produce drastically more crap on the valves that a non-DI motor leading to rough idles, and other stupid carbon build up related nuances. There are more people who don't walnut blast or perform other time consuming operations to clean their valves than those who do...so yes, issues do arise with DI motors because of carbon build up and for the everyday driver will eventually lead to dirtier engines that run like crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2756556

I know you think this is all mind-blowing and new information for us, it isnt. This has been a known issue since the platform came out.

There are no long term reliability issues with carbon buildup, it just requires preventative maintenance every 50-60k miles. It's a $500 service at most shops, that's cheaper than a set of tires. BMW, Lexus, Ford, Mazda, all use DI in several of their engines, including the Focus RS and multiple Mustang models. Nissan uses DI on their Juke model, Infiniti just released a DI motor they referred to as the most advanced Infiniti V6 engine ever.

Please, research and stop mindlessly posting dribble.
This wasn't meant to blow anyone's mind....anyone who doesn't know what DI is or the negatives of DI in this day in age, should not get near a combustion engine...period.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:59 PM   #21
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^ You've yet to provide any support of your original (false) claim beyond "carbon build-up" which is a preventative maintenance item that everyone has known about for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx;46122261;
Direct Injection cars, they are difficult to tune, cost way more to modify, and overall incorporate technology to improve fuel efficiency and weight rather than durability and reliability.
Direct injection has tons of advantages and any downsides can be solved by dual injection. DI itself is not a problem, but rather the lack of port injection causes carbon build-up.

Think of it this way, carbon build-up requires maintenance just like changing the timing belt on an EJ. The FA has a timing chain which isn't a maintenance item. That will completely offset the cost of walnut blasting. And what happens if an owner doesn't feel like performing maintenance on their timing belt and it snaps?

Last edited by WRXnick16; 09-11-2019 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
^ You've yet to provide any support of your original (false) claim beyond "carbon build-up" which is a preventative maintenance item that everyone has known about for years.

Direct injection has tons of advantages and any downsides can be solved by dual injection. DI itself is not a problem, but rather the lack of port injection causes carbon build-up.

Think of it this way, carbon build-up requires maintenance just like changing the timing belt on an EJ. The FA has a timing chain which isn't a maintenance item. That will completely offset the cost of walnut blasting. And what happens if an owner doesn't feel like performing maintenance on their timing belt and it snaps?
Carbon buildup on DI cars requires maintenance? Is this written in any DI car's owners manual? If so, please show me...this will be the first im hearing about a manufacturer stating that carbon buildup from their DI motor REQUIRES preventative maintenance for carbon buildup. That would be a terrible thing to advertise to a customer about their latest tech. If your referring to people taking the time to research the problem, pay extra money to perform this service, and keep up with a routine schedule....your out of your mind. The average (majority) Porsche drivers DO NONE OF THIS....what makes you believe an average Subaru driver will?

Again (and try and understand), I KNOW DI has it's advantages in making more power and better fuel economy. However, you keep mentioning to solve the problem of carbon buildup by installing dual injection. My questions to you are:

1) Do you honestly believe the new STI will have dual injection?

2) Do you honestly believe the average STI owner will perform routine top-end cleaning?

If you do believe this...it's wishful thinking. If not, than carbon buildup will be a common issue with the next STI....and enough carbon buildup will cause reliability issues. What is so hard to understand about that?

Also, just curious how many upgraded DI fuel pumps are available on the market for Subbies with DI right now? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Last edited by xX_STI_Xx; 09-12-2019 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:02 AM   #23
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Are you going to keep ignoring our questions about supporting your DI claims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by xX_STI_Xx;46122261;
Direct Injection cars, they are difficult to tune, cost way more to modify, and overall incorporate technology to improve fuel efficiency and weight rather than durability and reliability.
We all know that carbon build-up is an issue with direct injection and requires maintenance.. this isn't new information to any of us. Carbon build-up may cause a slight decrease in power, rough idle, and decreased fuel economy. If you want to argue "increased maintenance", sure. But..
  • How does it make the engine less reliable and durable?
  • How is it difficult to tune?
  • Which parts cost way more to modify?
  • How does DI increase weight?
Owners being too lazy isn't an argument. What happens when an EJ owner is too lazy or cheap to replace their timing belt? It will break and likely cause engine damage leaving them stranded on the side of the road. Please show us an example of carbon build-up causing a severe mechanical engine failure.

IBR & Nostrum both have upgraded HPFP options.. not sure how that's relevant since they aren't required until 500+ whp. How many of these Subaru owners that are too lazy to research or perform routine maintenance are going to be modified let alone have 500+ whp?

We don't care what your personal feelings are on direct injection. We've all known about carbon build-up and it being an issue for many years. But don't spread the false, vague claims quoted above.. or that DI causes carbon build-up in the throttle body.. or that dual injection doesn't prevent carbon build-up in some "clever Toyota" when their D-4S system has proven to prevent it in the BRZ/FRS/86.

I never said that the next gen STI will have dual injection.. I actually said that it's unlikely. I simply stated that direct injection itself isn't he issue as seen with dual injection. The lack of port injection is the issue as the fuel washes the back of the intake valves. This can be solved in DI only cars by adding auxiliary port injection or water/methanol injection. Subaru even sells a carbon clean kit.. I'm not claiming that it actually works, but it shows that they've acknowledged the problem to some degree. https://parts.subaru.com/p/Subaru__/...A868V9165.html
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:14 PM   #24
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I seriously doubt a car in the STI's price range will have both injection methods.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:01 PM   #25
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I don't see what's the big deal with carbon deposits on DI engines.... yeah it sucks; but simple to solve/maintain. You do lose some power in the long run, but with how aggressive/reactive the FA ECU is with timing, I doubt it's a reliability issue unless you let it go way out of hand.

My Subaru dealer has the top end cleaning as a regular maintenance item for the 100,000km service (They call it 'Type C' service). So it shouldnt go that far out of hand if you're following manufacturer's recommendations....

All manufacturers are going for more short-term stats and numbers rather than long-term reliability.

Last edited by F1EA; 09-12-2019 at 02:19 PM.
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