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Old 06-15-2016, 02:55 AM   #26
Bikelok
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Is it on jack stands or ramps?
If on ramps even in neutral it may be hard to turn it by hand.
Perhaps someone else can chime in.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:28 AM   #27
jimkelly
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Default ramps

front wheels are on ramps and rear is off ground using jack stands (pic above). but this is the way it was when i did all the removal and shaft rotated then but this was done using my open ended wrench on the tight bolts to rotate shaft to desired orientation. now that i am reassembling, i don't have tight bolts to use for same purpose. that said, i will get front off ramps and on jack stands. thanks for the suggestion. jim
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:06 AM   #28
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Default drive shaft

well, i just pulled the ramps out and swapped in jack stands. and in N neutral, shaft rotates fan freaking tastic!!! will get some atf today and test car. will keep you posted. THANK YOU!

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Old 06-15-2016, 10:47 AM   #29
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Great!
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:00 PM   #30
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Default seems fixed - no binding so far

i do have a small exhaust leak though. thanks and great thread!!!

so my findings are that drive shaft needs to come out and be sure to use jack stands. i also used jack stands, 2 in front and one in rear, to hold exhaust as i was removing it and installing it, by myself.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:49 PM   #31
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Default 4EAT, 16 Flashes of Death, or Torque Bind Sucks, or How To Replace a Duty C S...

I only had to remove the driveshaft center carrier bolts and the rear driveshaft cover to slide it out of the transmission. I was then able to move it to the side and out of the way. Again this was on a 97 Leggy Outback.
I'm glad it helped you.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:10 AM   #32
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I tested it with a few laps around the company parking lot and then I drove it 3 hrs. all seems good. need to replace struts/springs and fix exhaust leak, maybe need new gaskets, as I used old gaskets when I reassembled.
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Old 06-18-2016, 07:29 AM   #33
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Hi there,

I have just purchased a 1993 Impreza 1.8l with the first gen 4eat and I also have the power light issue. I followed a procedure that allowed me to pull the transmission trouble code 32 for vss1 or vehicle speed sensor. Since I've been driving the car, it consistently shifts off the line from first gear to second gear but proceeds to downshifts back to first gear and revs almost to the redline before up shifting again. I have done the transmission fluid and filter change as well. My main confusion here is I put the fwd fuse in to disable the awd and the car shifted like a dream! I couldn't believe it. Any ideas as to what would cause the car to shift reradicly in awd but shift normal in fwd?

Last edited by 05foresterxt6652; 06-18-2016 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:16 PM   #34
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Default binding is back

my binding is back and i think it has more to due with the gouging then the duty c solenoid. mys guess is most 1990 trans will have this gouging as my spare has it as well. can i put a later year auto awd trans in my 1990 legacy?
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimkelly View Post
my binding is back and i think it has more to due with the gouging then the duty c solenoid. mys guess is most 1990 trans will have this gouging as my spare has it as well. can i put a later year auto awd trans in my 1990 legacy?

They will fit, but there will be electrical issues.
I'm not sure what years will work. It will take some research to figure that out.
Sorry I can't help.
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:15 PM   #36
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Default how is the transmission lowered?

I have a question .. the original write up says to 'drop the transmission down a bit so that the shaft can be removed '.. how is that done if the transmission is bolted to the engine bolted to the frame? thanks for any clarification on this step. i've had a replacement solenoid for over a year but i'm not looking forward to this job at all.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crap GC 99 View Post
I have a question .. the original write up says to 'drop the transmission down a bit so that the shaft can be removed '.. how is that done if the transmission is bolted to the engine bolted to the frame? thanks for any clarification on this step. i've had a replacement solenoid for over a year but i'm not looking forward to this job at all.


You don't remove the bolts to the engine.
When you remove the transmission crossmember, you will support the transmission with a jack and some wood. Just lower the jack some and the transmission will drop down a little. The engine will also tilt back a bit.
Good luck.
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:51 AM   #38
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Photos fixed
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:02 PM   #39
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thanks Bike...
so no need to loosen engine mounts or anything? I always assumes engine / trans were rigid to the frame. surprised that they will wiggle.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crap GC 99 View Post
thanks Bike...
so no need to loosen engine mounts or anything? I always assumes engine / trans were rigid to the frame. surprised that they will wiggle.
The engine and trans mounts have rubber in the middle of them, since the tail of the trans is so far away from the engine mounts, a few degrees flex at the mounts is a big swing at the rear of the trans.
This would go for stiffer mounts such as the Group N mounts, there is still some flex.

As to this thread, I have not needed it, but I give kudos to the 2 OP's with this DIY and follow up.
Excellent!
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Old 04-01-2017, 12:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
The engine and trans mounts have rubber in the middle of them, since the tail of the trans is so far away from the engine mounts, a few degrees flex at the mounts is a big swing at the rear of the trans.

This would go for stiffer mounts such as the Group N mounts, there is still some flex.



As to this thread, I have not needed it, but I give kudos to the 2 OP's with this DIY and follow up.

Excellent!
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crap GC 99 View Post
thanks Bike...
so no need to loosen engine mounts or anything? I always assumes engine / trans were rigid to the frame. surprised that they will wiggle.
What Charlie-III said. ^^^
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:03 AM   #42
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Thanks for the writeup bikelok! It's been very helpful. I thought maybe I could add my findings as they apply to my 1993 SS Turbo Legacy 4EAT.

I had the 14 flashes of death for my 1993 SS turbo legacy and some torque bind that was getting worse and worse. Not to the point of being terrible, but bothersome.

After removing the tail I noticed some deep grooves on the clutch drum. A new clutch drum is no longer available and is a discontinued part. There wasn't any information as to whether the NA and turbo assemblies were compatible that I could find.



I pulled an NA assembly from a 1994 NA Legacy w/only 90k at the junkyard.

I did some further comparison between the NA and turbo assemblies. I measured everything as accurately as I could with dial calipers. I am not going to post measurements since I did the measurements side by side and did not write anything down.

There are two key differences between the NA and turbo assemblies which I will get into below.

The reduction gear aka the transfer clutch drums are identical. The shafts are exactly the same, the bearings are stamped with the same identification marks, length is the same, the number of splines is the same, the placement of the bearings, etc. is exactly the same. The thickness of the 'basket' that holds the clutch plates is exactly the same. I did not do any hardness tests so I cannot say for certainty that the turbo shaft is made of some superior material.

Both NA and turbo assemblies side by side (turbo on top):


The two clutch drums side by side (turbo w/180k on left, NA w/90k on left) The grooves on the NA are much less than those of the turbo assembly:


The transfer clutch plates of the two assemblies have differences. The first selective pressure plates and snap rings are identical in thickness as well as the inner pressure plates. However the NA uses five pressure plates and the turbo uses six. This goes for the number of clutch plates. The NA has 5 pressure plates and the turbo has six.

NA clutch plates have two types of friction material, one on each side (black and brown). The turbo plates have the same type of material on both sides (brown and brown):


The other key difference is that the outer hub snap ring groove is deeper on the NA hub. This is to accommodate less rings:


I'd like to get new clutch plates but mine appear fine so I am going to keep using them. They were the same thickness as the NA plates w/90k so I should be good. A replacement set is 5 days out and I want to put the car back together.

Perhaps someone could use the NA clutch plate with assembly and it would work fine with the turbo 4EAT. I think that the turbo 4EAT has the extra plates to handle more power output from the turbo drivetrain but from what I have experienced the NAs are pleasantly robust and could probably handle all that the VF12 stock turbo has to offer.

I'll install everything tomorrow hopefully and report back when I'm finished.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:50 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Thanks for the writeup bikelok! It's been very helpful. I thought maybe I could add my findings as they apply to my 1993 SS Turbo Legacy 4EAT.

I had the 14 flashes of death for my 1993 SS turbo legacy and some torque bind that was getting worse and worse. Not to the point of being terrible, but bothersome.

After removing the tail I noticed some deep grooves on the clutch drum. A new clutch drum is no longer available and is a discontinued part. There wasn't any information as to whether the NA and turbo assemblies were compatible that I could find.



I pulled an NA assembly from a 1994 NA Legacy w/only 90k at the junkyard.

I did some further comparison between the NA and turbo assemblies. I measured everything as accurately as I could with dial calipers. I am not going to post measurements since I did the measurements side by side and did not write anything down.

There are two key differences between the NA and turbo assemblies which I will get into below.

The reduction gear aka the transfer clutch drums are identical. The shafts are exactly the same, the bearings are stamped with the same identification marks, length is the same, the number of splines is the same, the placement of the bearings, etc. is exactly the same. The thickness of the 'basket' that holds the clutch plates is exactly the same. I did not do any hardness tests so I cannot say for certainty that the turbo shaft is made of some superior material.

Both NA and turbo assemblies side by side (turbo on top):


The two clutch drums side by side (turbo w/180k on left, NA w/90k on left) The grooves on the NA are much less than those of the turbo assembly:


The transfer clutch plates of the two assemblies have differences. The first selective pressure plates and snap rings are identical in thickness as well as the inner pressure plates. However the NA uses five pressure plates and the turbo uses six. This goes for the number of clutch plates. The NA has 5 pressure plates and the turbo has six.

NA clutch plates have two types of friction material, one on each side (black and brown). The turbo plates have the same type of material on both sides (brown and brown):


The other key difference is that the outer hub snap ring groove is deeper on the NA hub. This is to accommodate less rings:


I'd like to get new clutch plates but mine appear fine so I am going to keep using them. They were the same thickness as the NA plates w/90k so I should be good. A replacement set is 5 days out and I want to put the car back together.

Perhaps someone could use the NA clutch plate with assembly and it would work fine with the turbo 4EAT. I think that the turbo 4EAT has the extra plates to handle more power output from the turbo drivetrain but from what I have experienced the NAs are pleasantly robust and could probably handle all that the VF12 stock turbo has to offer.

I'll install everything tomorrow hopefully and report back when I'm finished.


Awesome addition!!!!

Thanks for posting!
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:53 AM   #44
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Well, my install worked! Shifts fine. Best of all the torque bind is completely gone. So the NA and turbo clutch drums are compatible.

I made a stupid mistake during the install though. When I first separated the tail housing I stripped the wire out of the harness plug because I pulled the housing out too far. I cut one off the junkyard tranny and soldered it to the stripped wire which was lame because the wire was coming out of the tranny and it was a tight fit to get a good solder.

So I get the ATF safe RTV on the tail housing, get the clutch pack basket on the clutch drum and start to slide the tail housing on and realized I soldered the wrong end of the harness plug on! I had two male connectors and I was reminded of wise words spoken by my man Biggie those plugs "don't mix like two dicks and no bitch". I said **** it and cut the plugs and soldered the wires together, all the while worrying my RTV was getting too dry.

However, I am still getting 16 flashes. I disconnected the battery for ten minutes and figured that would reset the TCU. I drove it around a bit and still got the flashes on startup. I am disconnecting the battery overnight and let it idle for a while tomorrow and see if the flashes go away. If they don't oh well, at least I am finished with this ****ty job. I have to say it was almost as bad as swapping a tranny and I hope I don't have to do it again.
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Old 08-11-2017, 02:00 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solhaven View Post
Strange. Mines having torque bind issues but it seems a little less clear cut than most others experiences and I still can't figure it out.

My rear wheels are locking up. Putting in the fwd fuse eliminates the problem. Which according to everyone else means the duty c solenoid is not the issue. The fluid was brand new, I changed it twice more just for good measure. Went and did figure 8s. No change.

Rear diff fluid is brand new as well so I decided to order a new duty c solenoid anyways. Waited over a week and ended up being a wrong part so I had a spare tranny known to be good and replaced both the duty c AND the rear extension housing incase it was the clutch packs. Reinstalled, fixed absolutely nothing. No at light illuminating either.

Mind = blown. Not sure if maybe the rear diff is gone somehow? What else could it be! Rawr.
OK, working with a 1997 Outback about 140K miles, flashes of death and torquebind on tight turns.
When putting in the FWD fuse, I still get torquebind, does this mean it's the solenoid or not?
Would you say it's clutch plates hanging in the basket (yes, long ago motorcycle clutches, great description)?

Not my car, but I've been asked to resolve it. I want an idea if I want to mess with it (yes, I've pulled quite a few Subaru engines and transmissions).
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:54 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
OK, working with a 1997 Outback about 140K miles, flashes of death and torquebind on tight turns.

When putting in the FWD fuse, I still get torquebind, does this mean it's the solenoid or not?

Would you say it's clutch plates hanging in the basket (yes, long ago motorcycle clutches, great description)?



Not my car, but I've been asked to resolve it. I want an idea if I want to mess with it (yes, I've pulled quite a few Subaru engines and transmissions).


I can't say for sure, but on my 97 Leggy Outback, putting the fuse worked (making it FWD) for about two or three weeks before I had the time to fix it. After two or three weeks it stopped working and the torque bind came back.
I just went for it, replacing the Duty C solenoid and clutch pack. Worked perfectly for me.
Sorry I can't help more.
It was not a pleasant job, but not the worst.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:56 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Well, my install worked! Shifts fine. Best of all the torque bind is completely gone. So the NA and turbo clutch drums are compatible.



I made a stupid mistake during the install though. When I first separated the tail housing I stripped the wire out of the harness plug because I pulled the housing out too far. I cut one off the junkyard tranny and soldered it to the stripped wire which was lame because the wire was coming out of the tranny and it was a tight fit to get a good solder.



So I get the ATF safe RTV on the tail housing, get the clutch pack basket on the clutch drum and start to slide the tail housing on and realized I soldered the wrong end of the harness plug on! I had two male connectors and I was reminded of wise words spoken by my man Biggie those plugs "don't mix like two dicks and no bitch". I said **** it and cut the plugs and soldered the wires together, all the while worrying my RTV was getting too dry.



However, I am still getting 16 flashes. I disconnected the battery for ten minutes and figured that would reset the TCU. I drove it around a bit and still got the flashes on startup. I am disconnecting the battery overnight and let it idle for a while tomorrow and see if the flashes go away. If they don't oh well, at least I am finished with this ****ty job. I have to say it was almost as bad as swapping a tranny and I hope I don't have to do it again.


Thanks for the update. Bummer on the 16 flashes still persisting. Let's us know if you figure it out.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:58 PM   #48
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Well torque bind has come back and the flashes are still there. I have no idea why. I just replaced the steering rack and swapped out the oil pan too. Pretty frustrating actually.

I am sick of spending so much time on the old turbo legacy. Time to start looking for a new car. It's my wife DD and she really likes it but I think I have wasted enough time on it.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:41 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Well torque bind has come back and the flashes are still there. I have no idea why. I just replaced the steering rack and swapped out the oil pan too. Pretty frustrating actually.

I am sick of spending so much time on the old turbo legacy. Time to start looking for a new car. It's my wife DD and she really likes it but I think I have wasted enough time on it.


Totally sucks.
Sorry to hear that.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:26 AM   #50
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Thanks man. The SS has taught me a lot about subies that's for sure.

I wonder if my soldering job was defective or something. I used marine grade heat shrink over the joints.

I found these pages from the FSM so I can do a bit more diagnostics on the duty C solenoid wiring:
http://www.main.experiencetherave.co...id_c_diag1.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.co...id_c_diag2.jpg

I'm sure I could replace the duty C solenoid again in a day if I have to do it over again but I'm not sure I feel like it right now. It would go a lot quicker the second time. The torque bind isn't too bad and my wife can live with it while we decide on another car. Oh well.
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