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Old 09-12-2008, 08:19 AM   #51
Tcal
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godforbid67...thank you for the $10 offer. I might take you up on that I did some research and found that the closest other awd dyno is a few hours away, so it wont happen this year. Maybe next.
and its not "mind boggling"......its "mind bottling"
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:09 PM   #52
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junebugfareast View Post
Wouldn't posting the engine load help answer some questions when debating dynos? It's available from the log and it's a real measure of the air entering the engine at a given RPM.
only if the maf scale hasnt been tweaked. once you change that scale the load values are no longer comparable.

even people with the same intake like the 70mm APS unit will all have different loads. it depends on what injector latency, scalar, maf scale and afr targets they are using.

I have plotted up 10-20 different 70mm MAF scales from different folks on nasioc and not one of them is the same.
Even my car with the same 70mm had a different MAF scale from 2 different tuners. One had my injector scalar at 680, the other had it at 740. Both tunes had great AFR curves, but the MAF scale was way different to achieve it and the loads were different too.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:17 PM   #53
mno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mno View Post
Tcal

Sorry to take over -- Keith did a great job and the car feels so much stronger.


Tony

I didnt waste my time. From this point forward only Pure will be touching my car. Thanks for driving up and meeting me early Saturday. Let me know if you will be at Waterford anytime soon.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcal View Post
godforbid67...thank you for the $10 offer. I might take you up on that I did some research and found that the closest other awd dyno is a few hours away, so it wont happen this year. Maybe next.
and its not "mind boggling"......its "mind bottling"
true well the offers out there. and its "mind boggling" google it sir. although mind bottling is something too but im sure its, mind boggling---intellectually overwhelmed---
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:15 PM   #55
Tcal
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Oh my god you are funny! "Mind bottling" was a joke...a quote by will farrel from the movie "blades of glory". Its so funny how everyone becomes an expert at everything when they are behind a computer. Sorry, just a general forum comment.

MNO....good to hear, and no problem. We should plan a waterford hills trip next season. I will keep in touch.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:20 PM   #56
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I just want to make some points here.....you guys dont need to be arguing about this.

Dyno sheets like this are exactly why i started the Data Log Thread

Any cars setup similarly are gonna make similar power. The problem comes in with the different dyno numbers, since dynos read so differently (which many people dont even know) the shops that have dynojets typically get recognized as "better" tuners because they produce the highest dyno numbers.
You can take my car that made 375whp on a dyno dynamics, while the number isnt low its not as impressive as the 450whp it would make on a dynojet.

The point of all this is for Tcal....if you just post 1 WOT log with boost, timing and AFR then no one can argue anymore.
I dont care what what individual parts anyone has....if you are running the same turbo (vf39) as someone else and your boost, timing and AFR are all the same, then the car is making the same power.

20psi, 12* of timing and 11:1 AFR with a vf39 will make the same power on any STi (assuming compressions not down). One is not gonna magically make more power with the same air and fuel. The equation is fairly simple.....the more air(oxygen) you can get into the motor, then the more fuel you can burn, the more fuel you burn the more power you make. Turbos are rated by airflow in lb/min IE my Green is 49 lb/min. A good estimate for how much power a turbo can make is simply mulitplying the flow by 10, IE 490 hp and this is flyhweel horsepower, not whp. So since turbos are airflow limited by their compressors/turbines, that means they are power limited. They can only flow so much air, so they can only make so much power.

And one tuner cant simply run more timing, more boost, or run leaner than any other tuner.
People that really dont know how and what changes are being made in an ECU think that tuners have some special power, or that one tuner can be significantly better than another, which is simply just not true.

If you truely believe that your car makes 50 ft*lbs more torque on pump gas, than other maxed out vf39's make on race gas then you know absolutely nothing about turbos, dynos, power and/or tuning.

PS: My vf34 wrx made 375whp on XS egnineerings dyno back in 2002-2003 on 91 octane and 18-19psi, i then went to Easystreet a week or 2 after on the same tune and put down 205whp. Thats how different dynos can be.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:35 PM   #57
Tcal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post

If you truely believe that your car makes 50 ft*lbs more torque on pump gas, than other maxed out vf39's make on race gas then you know absolutely nothing about turbos, dynos, power and/or tuning.

Alright dick, youre the expert, you win.....my graph is a wrong. Even though another stock turbo under "proven power" just made 401tq, there is no possible way in hell I could have that much.
I really regret posting here and have realized that I could care less what you guys have to say. Im out.
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Old 09-12-2008, 03:26 PM   #58
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^ Dude Im not trying to be a dick, im trying to help you understand. I was in the same boat 6 years ago when i dyno'd the 375whp at XS Engineering. It was a 2L WRX with VF34 on 91 octane. My Green'd STi barely makes that on a "normal" dyno on pump gas+ meth at 25-26psi.

When i did 375whp and started telling people i got the same response you are getting. Its just a fact that a vf34 will not flow enough to make that kind of power.

So take a look at this dyno (a very high reading one)....and look at what this 415tq was achieved with.....26psi, 93 octane plus methanol, and a very high reading dyno.

Im just saying you have to take the relativity into account......your car isnt making the same power as this one because you are on a lower octane therefore you simply cant run the same boost, timing and AFR as this car....its not dictated by the tuner, its dictated by the octane of the gasoline.

Im just trying to help you out and explain how different dynos read and the effects of different octanes and whats possible with methanol.

Do you really believe that your vf39 on pump gas at 22psi makes the same torque as WRC cars with $20,000 turbos on race gas?

If you download enginuity and log you can use airboys spreadsheet to road dyno your car. The road dyno reads right on with dyno dynamics. You could run your car in that to look at the sheet

RomRaider/Ecuflash getting started FAQ

Here is airboys spreadsheet, It's called Log File Interpolation

http://www.ken-gilbert.com/wrx/enginuity/

I think you will be surprised at the different readings you get, just a different way to look at things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyno Flash View Post
We are continuing to massage the power delivery on our '07 STI and try to make it have more of a drag racuing power band - we are tryting to stay with the stock turbo and stock tmic and see how fast we can go with the new configuration

Mods were

AP 2 tuned by Dyno Flash
APS Cold air intake
APS 3.5" exhuast and upipe
Walbro fuel pump
Aquamist HFS-5 50/50 water - meth

We just added

APS TGV deletes
E boost 2 EBC


Note in the dyno sheet the spool up looks a lot later due to a different starting point on the dyno and also due to the change from a MBC to a EBC.


With the new mods and some more refined tuning the car picked up opver 30 whop in the meat of the drag racing power band - should be intreresting to see how that top end power equates on the track






Last edited by Phatron; 09-12-2008 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:28 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcal View Post
Oh my god you are funny! "Mind bottling" was a joke...a quote by will farrel from the movie "blades of glory". Its so funny how everyone becomes an expert at everything when they are behind a computer. Sorry, just a general forum comment.

MNO....good to hear, and no problem. We should plan a waterford hills trip next season. I will keep in touch.
sorry im not a freaking movie guru. its funny how im an expert when im behind a computer??? are you stupid? an expert on what? and whats it have to do with being behind a computer? i mean come on how am i suppose to know your quoting will ferrell i think your just covering yourself up.
and phatron you sure are being a dick (sarcastic)...........his car is magical dont you understand that yet?
you or pure tuning please explain why and how this car is making more tq then any other vf39 without it being maxed out. i mean do you really think your car is making that on a little 22 psi? go in a real 500 ft pound car and then youll feel the difference. i would be very skeptical if my car made that on my old vf39. i would even say its even mathematically impossible in your given situation.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:52 PM   #60
Tcal
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Covering myself up? from what? What pisses me off about you guys is not that you are "skeptical", I understand that...its that you say its impossible, or "magical". I have seen other STI's make tq close to mine, hell there is a thread here with one. Yes, its just a #, my measuring point for me to see change in MY car. And yes, maybe my tq reading is a little higher because a mustang dyno's rollers are loaded. Just because you didnt make the power with your vf39 doesnt mean that it cant be done!
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:21 PM   #61
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just log a 4th gear pull and use airboys road dyno and post that sheet up.

you're right its just a number, but we are trying to explain to you that 420 Ft*lbs is ASTRONOMICAL on PUMP gas. its not a mere 5-10-20 higher than the "average" its about 70 ft*lbs higher

my vf39 did 380 ft*lbs on race gas and 26psi.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:03 PM   #62
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I have to agree with Ron. It is a physical impossibility for a VF39 running 22 psi of boost to make 420+wtq on pump gas. Even if the car was far more knock resistant than most, there is no way to run enough timing to make that number on a correctly calibrated dyno. Mustang dynos need to be correctly setup to spit out accurate results. This one need to have its settings checked because the whp seems about right, but as others have said torque is out of whack. As an example, the Corvette shop next door to us dynoed a buddy's Z06 after he changed the oil with Eneos 5w40. He made 60whp more than he did last week. W00000t for oil that makes 60 whp Or perhaps the tech who ran the dyno didn't input the right settings (he normally doesn't run the dyno there).
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:26 PM   #63
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damn this is getting funny

425wtq on pump gas... kinda crazy if you ask me


when i had similar set up as you,

91 octane Pump gas, @ 20psi.. i only made 314wtq

Last edited by downsti; 09-13-2008 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:29 PM   #64
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your mad cuz we say its impossible..............i mean come on man IT IS impossible to make that much tq at only 22 psi!

i mean tell me what is so special about your car that it can make that much more power, then any other bolt on sti.
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