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Old 02-14-2019, 02:45 PM   #1
dud3tt3
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Default I made 390whp/360wtq with my set up. I expected more?

Hey everyone,

I'm really just looking for some opinions. I recently finished my built motor and dyno tuned up in southern pa on a dyno jet. I only made 390whp/360twq and ran into some issues while tuning and wanted to know your thoughts.

Here's what I have:

Engine:

Built 2.7 Hydra by Element Tuning
100mm Manley pistons
Manley rods
GSC 272 Cams
Stock Crank
TGV Deletes
Super Tech Valvesprings
ARP Head studs
IAT Visconti
AEM 3.5 MAP Sensor
Grimmspeed 3 port EBC
Aeromotive Fuel Rails
Deatschwerks 340LPH Fuel Pump
Injector Dynamics 1050X (1065cc) Injectors
NGK Iridium Spark plugs
Speed Density on Cobb Access Port

Turbo smart BOV

Blouch 1.5 XT-R (Twinscroll)-IWG
3inch Inlet & 10cm hot side

Tomei Expreme Equal Length Headers & Up-pipe (Twinscroll)

Perrin FMIC

ACT Heavy Duty Street Performance Clutch
OEM Fly wheel

(I may be forgetting some things)

Located in Northern Va but tuned up at PSI Proformance in Lansdale PA.

Final Dyno pull on a Dynojet (Jan. 17, 2019)
4th gear 387whp/360tq @ 21PSI on 93 pump

When I first finished this project my goal was to break 400 to the wheels. I was confident with this set up to at least break 400whp and have torque right around the same, even on 93 pump. If I had to actually ballpark it, I expected to make around 420-430whp and 440-450tq.

Down the road, I do want to eventually go with a cobb flex fuel kit to have the ability to run E85, but it's not a necessity at this time.

While tuning we discovered that the IWG was opening up too soon. We also saw on that last pull that my clutch was starting to slip which pretty much concluded my dyno tune. Granted my clutch is relatively new, I have a friend who ran into this same issue with the same clutch. They are supposed to be rated 515tq to the crank, so I was quite surprised to see it not hold any more than 360 to the wheels.

"Wastegate duty cycles were mid 30's on hit to full boost (according to my tuner). The issue he ran into was he was 50-60% up and the turbo was tapering more than usual. If the spring was off it would have a slow PID to full boost. We had the opposite issue. The turbo was tapering more up top than usual, dropping power a tad even when hitting it with lots of WGDCs."

^(I know absolutely nothing when it comes to tuning so I don't fully understand what he's referring to in all of this tuning lingo.)

Now, knowing what I know, I have been contemplating converting to EWG's and knowing that I am twin scroll, I would need a dual ewg set up. It's rather a complex project to complete a dual ewg on a stock location turbo with this setup. A pretty penny is required (as usual with Subarus imo) to fabricate my current up pipe or have one completely fabricated from scratch to accommodate this. I also plan to invest (unfortunately) in yet another clutch that hopefully doesn't give out on me. I might just throw a 6puck disc in and call it a day, but I may also consider switching out to a lightweight flywheel as well.

Curious what are some of your opinions or thoughts on this and I'm open to suggestions on alternative solutions.

Thanks!
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:50 PM   #2
kharmicresonance
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Just to follow up,

That post you linked, the build was a 2.5 with S1 GSC cams. That is why the dom1.5 came the overall choice.

Your builds adds 200cc in displacement. Plus 272 cams lift longer and higher than stock or S1.

If you want to stay twin scroll, then pick up the 2.5, or 3, or heck even the 4 can be had with a twinscroll housing iirc.

You just have to big of an air pump going on for a dom1.5 twin scroll.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:52 PM   #3
kharmicresonance
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Oh, and going EWG is a really good idea on your build too.
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:52 PM   #4
dud3tt3
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Ahh makes sense. Thanks for your input!
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:03 PM   #5
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Have to ask...cuz it seems like someone overthought this dual EWG idea....

If 4-2-1 headers can use a single EWG, what's stopping you from fabbing up a y-pipe between the twin up pipes and using a single EWG?
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:55 AM   #6
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First: what did your tuner say when you asked him why you didnít meet your power goals? Try those recommendations and see where you end up.

Second: from what I see, the hydra is a v2.7 but this engine is still a 2.5. 100mm pistons plus stock crank means stockish displacement.

Third: building a merge pipe for single ewg on these usually leads to a cracked divider. Thatís why you donít see it often. Not having a divider ruins the benefits of twin scroll according to some discourse years ago.

This turbo has done high 400ís on a dynojet, but thatís on e85. That being said, I wouldíve expected more with those cams and that much boost.
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
Third: building a merge pipe for single ewg on these usually leads to a cracked divider. Thatís why you donít see it often. Not having a divider ruins the benefits of twin scroll according to some discourse years ago.
Cracked gate collector. Fair point.

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with EVERY internally gated twinscroll turbo out there, but I have seen a couple IWG TS turbos (couldn't tell you brand or model as I didn't think it was important at the time) where the bypass was merged before the gate inside the exhaust housing. I would assume not every IWG TS wouldn't be like this, but I concluded that there's enough pressure and proper flow direction for it not to matter where it matters, i.e.: when you're WOT, because there is enough pressure and velocity to keep it moving in that direction. However, this is a bleed off passage and not the main exhaust flow path. Hence my question about a [properly designed] 2-1 EWG collector. Flex section maybe? Not reliable enough maybe...dunno. Either way, it sounds like going either way is going to have some level of troubles whether it's design, expense, or tuning (I'm probably overthinking the last one).

Alas, I'm at the mercy of the internet as I lack proper funding and equipment to do adequate testing myself.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper_crazy View Post
Have to ask...cuz it seems like someone overthought this dual EWG idea....

If 4-2-1 headers can use a single EWG, what's stopping you from fabbing up a y-pipe between the twin up pipes and using a single EWG?
Because you then introduce a means for the pressure pulsation to bleed across to the other scroll, effecting making it a single scroll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper_crazy View Post
but I have seen a couple IWG TS turbos (couldn't tell you brand or model as I didn't think it was important at the time) where the bypass was merged before the gate inside the exhaust housing. I would assume not every IWG TS wouldn't be like this,
I have never seen such an arrangement. Everyone I've seen has an oblong flab opening two separate ports or one round flap with a divided port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper_crazy View Post
but I concluded that there's enough pressure and proper flow direction for it not to matter where it matters, i.e.: when you're WOT...
The goal of twinscroll is to have stronger pulsation in the pre-spool area, so it's actually low pressure relative to when the turbo is actually spooled.
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I have never seen such an arrangement.
Doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps this was a cheaply made turbo? Maybe they were very old models? I couldn't tell you. As I said, the two I've seen I neglected to note branding. The inlet to the IWG was divided but near the wastegate flap, it was not. Besides with the merged section literally like less than 1" away from the exit of the housing, the amount of pressure being forced in only one direction at WOT, the WG area being as small as it is compared to the turbine path, and the main exhaust flows through the turbine anyways which also merges into a single area at the turbine, any losses would be pretty negligable as the pressure and flow exert a certain "one way only" situation.



However, it would stand to reason that IF the smallest gap in bridging the two sides makes such a huge difference, then a prperly designed 2-1 EWG collector would work. Someone who is keen enough with the sciencey things behind it all who possesses the fabrication abilities should be able to make a solid collector.

Also, if that small of a gap makes a difference, then a true twinscroll would have two exhaust turbines but I imagine expense versus gains compared with a single turbine wouldn't be reasonable, therefore the differences are negligable.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:43 PM   #10
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You need more turbo.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
You need more turbo.
2slofouru nailed it.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:36 PM   #12
dud3tt3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
First: what did your tuner say when you asked him why you didnít meet your power goals? Try those recommendations and see where you end up.

Second: from what I see, the hydra is a v2.7 but this engine is still a 2.5. 100mm pistons plus stock crank means stockish displacement.

Third: building a merge pipe for single ewg on these usually leads to a cracked divider. Thatís why you donít see it often. Not having a divider ruins the benefits of twin scroll according to some discourse years ago.

This turbo has done high 400ís on a dynojet, but thatís on e85. That being said, I wouldíve expected more with those cams and that much boost.
My tuner said my IWG spring was opening up too soon or referred to it as "weak". That's what limited the power output. As for tq, my clutch started to slip in 4th at 360tq with an ACT HDSS and OEM flywheel, (with roughly 3k miles on the clutch) I was surprised it started to give out. Once that happened my tuner said that's about all he can do. As for the IWG, I asked him if I could get an upgraded IWG spring, he said that with the amount of money it'll cost plus the re-tune I'll only see a 10-20hp gain. Which he weighed not really worth the investment. The up-pipe on my kit is a separated, so its a 4-2-2, not a 4-2-1 this leading me to go EWG (more boost control) and being twin scroll it'd have to be dual EWG. That's the extent of my knowledge.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:37 PM   #13
dud3tt3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper_crazy View Post
Have to ask...cuz it seems like someone overthought this dual EWG idea....

If 4-2-1 headers can use a single EWG, what's stopping you from fabbing up a y-pipe between the twin up pipes and using a single EWG?
Not sure, do you have any examples? Is there even enough space to do that off the twin up-pipe for a stock location set up?
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:23 PM   #14
TDagen
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You can swap an act 6 puck clutch disc in and be able to hold the power. I had an act full face disc on the smaller wrx 5 speed clutch and it didn't do well with a rotated Garrett 30r in the 400whp/400wtq range. The act 6 puck disc worked great though all the way up to 600whp, never slipped on me.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:09 PM   #15
dud3tt3
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I just bought the disc, going to give that a try. I also was reading into an aftermarket IWG.

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...QP0ohIjRMaHVN4

Has anyone tried this?
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:05 PM   #16
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That's crazy, I have the full face ACT rated for over 500ft/lbs and it would be a shame if something with that stiff of a pedal could slipe at less than 400. I'm only aiming for around 450wtq but this has me worried. I really don't want a chattery puck disc that eats the flywheel alive.
Are you sure the disc wasn't contaminated with too much grease on the shaft splines or maybe the pilot bearing leaked grease onto the flywheel????
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dud3tt3 View Post
Not sure, do you have any examples? Is there even enough space to do that off the twin up-pipe for a stock location set up?
Dunno. That's why I asked. It would probably depend how the pipes are oriented and if clearances make it possible. Like I say, it sounds like either way can be just as much of a pain, whether it's time spent to figure out a properly/optimally designed 2-1 single EWG piping, if it's worth it at all, or to drop extra money on two EWG's and have piping and fab work zipped up and be done with it. Ones a pain to time, the other a pain to the wallet. Just depends on perspective, I guess.

My problem is, I have all these ideas and lack proper equipment to make this crap to test it.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
You need more turbo.
^ is the correct answer. I believe you're maxing out that turbo. What's the turbo rated for ? I read ~470hp. Also why go up to PA, if you live in VA? You have choices in VA and Maryland to get a really good tune.
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:30 PM   #19
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I agree, Blouch 1.5 XT-R is not that big of a turbo. It's a 480hp (crank hp) turbo and you are making about 480hp, if not more.
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Old 02-22-2019, 03:43 PM   #20
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https://getmoorepower.com/subaru-twi...wnpipe-flange/

I got one of these. They take a lot of the back pressure out. If you run it to atmo or make a little 2' exhaust system you effectively have 5" of exhaust.
Once the gate opens I had to add 5-10% more fuel to the map.

Get yourself a dom3 TS. Heaps better choice to get to your goal

Also the volute area in the TS is smaller hence less peak hp

Last edited by ripman; 02-22-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:46 AM   #21
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I've got a similar build. Only major difference is I am running a 20G XT-R, stock headers, and EWG, which probably helps with boost control. EWG is pipped back into downpipe. My tune peaks at 22PSI and holds 20PSI to redline. It makes 395hp/358tq on a Mustang Dyno... and according to my tuner that's a bit conservative.

Clutch slipping with just 360tq is pretty surprising. I run stock clutch, 4-5K launches at autox and no issues. Maybe you should just go back to OEM clutch.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:30 PM   #22
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Another one for too small of turbo. The drivetrain losses are going to be close to 20%, which puts you in the 480 flywheel hp range and out of turbo. Blouch's 470 hp rating is for flywheel, so you did well. I recommend enjoying your throttle response and focus on making it reliable.
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:03 AM   #23
dud3tt3
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I had a master tech install this motor, he went over everything. No leaks. I've had a **** end on clutches over the last 2 years. First one, the shop poked holes into my transfer case and DENIED it. So then I had my insurance cover transferring the internals over to a new T-case, plus 1st & 2nd gear/sync rows replaced. Put a second new clutch in, new flywheel, then 10 months later the oem throw out bearing went out. replaced with another clutch, stuck with the flywheel bc, it was still new and here we are now slipping.
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:05 AM   #24
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I understand, what you are talking about now. I've seen it done, but honestly, I feel its best to stick with a dual ewg for ts.
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:06 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripman View Post
https://getmoorepower.com/subaru-twi...wnpipe-flange/

I got one of these. They take a lot of the back pressure out. If you run it to atmo or make a little 2' exhaust system you effectively have 5" of exhaust.
Once the gate opens I had to add 5-10% more fuel to the map.

Get yourself a dom3 TS. Heaps better choice to get to your goal

Also the volute area in the TS is smaller hence less peak hp

My downpipe is already divorced, is this just for open an mouth dp?
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