Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday March 19, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2015, 01:49 PM   #1
rustler753
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 372764
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default Outfront 1/2" headstuds pulling threads at 21psi

Long story short, 1/2" headstuds pulled threads out of the outer stud on cylinder 4. This was on a used block that saw some decent heat cycles but at only 21psi of boost. Studs were torqued 115 corners, 120 centers.

After ASF Machine and Outfront have been in contact, it was concluded that this is not the only occurrence of threads being pulled and further investigations are required in new/old block strengths and heat cycles the block has seen.

In the mean time it was also determined as an immediate fix to time-sert all the headstuds.

Thoughts? 4th time this block has been out of the car, I'm just a little tired of being everyone else's test dummy with me being the one who pays for all the R&D in the end. Non-sponsored customers don't have an endless wallet!





* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by rustler753; 08-19-2015 at 01:54 PM.
rustler753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 08-19-2015, 02:30 PM   #2
TeddyK
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 404608
Join Date: Oct 2014
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Renton, WA
Vehicle:
2010 WRX sedan
DGM

Default

Yup, companies love to use the customer as their test bed. And the 1st handout of the new and improved will not likely go to you, rather someone else.

I'm sad now.
TeddyK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 03:34 PM   #3
wgr73
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232458
Join Date: Dec 2009
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Las Cruces/El Paso
Vehicle:
2005 & 2008 STi
Cobb 20g & EFR 7670

Default

Crazy, this is the first time I've heard of this. Definitely noted.
wgr73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 03:46 PM   #4
point78
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 344329
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Summit County
Vehicle:
2008 Wrx, 6mt

Default

You're the guy down on the front range running the efr7163, aren't you?

That sucks man.
point78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 04:11 PM   #5
rustler753
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 372764
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Yeap!

How did you know?
rustler753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 06:29 PM   #6
Joshwrx04
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 135429
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens WA
Vehicle:
'05 Cornfed CGM STi
94 Legacy SS

Default

Hey bud! I'm the other "occurrence". My used case that i sent in (701) for closed deck and 1/2 studs pulled on one of the outer holes. They sent my builder a time cert, got that in and put it back together and had another one pull!
Now i had two options... Get a other new case, re machine everything, line hone (arp case bolts). Or time cert every hole. So I'm going with time certs on every one! Very frustrating as ive been waiting months on my build. And into it alot of money.
Joshwrx04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 07:11 PM   #7
user1029
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57064
Join Date: Mar 2004
Vehicle:
2008 STi IAG built
HTA86 E85 Kel272s Cos IM

Default

1/2" studs no good
user1029 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 08:11 PM   #8
point78
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 344329
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Summit County
Vehicle:
2008 Wrx, 6mt

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustler753 View Post
Yeap!

How did you know?

I've been watching all the EFR setups, thinking I'm gonna go that route(or spoolinator), you're up here at altitude, and another guy is too.

Altitude kinda changes everything, so you guys are the most relevant for me.

Last edited by point78; 08-19-2015 at 08:21 PM.
point78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 08:13 PM   #9
rustler753
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 372764
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshwrx04 View Post
Hey bud! I'm the other "occurrence". My used case that i sent in (701) for closed deck and 1/2 studs pulled on one of the outer holes. They sent my builder a time cert, got that in and put it back together and had another one pull!
Now i had two options... Get a other new case, re machine everything, line hone (arp case bolts). Or time cert every hole. So I'm going with time certs on every one! Very frustrating as ive been waiting months on my build. And into it alot of money.
That blows even more that you had yet another pull out.

My builder decided to time sert every hole too.

Did outfront do anything money wise to help cover your costs? Seeing how they machined it.
rustler753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 09:16 PM   #10
wEaK Squad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337250
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlanta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyK View Post
Yup, companies love to use the customer as their test bed. And the 1st handout of the new and improved will not likely go to you, rather someone else.

I'm sad now.

Mine hold 40psi perfectly!
wEaK Squad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 09:25 PM   #11
Lenny2005
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 289657
Join Date: Jul 2011
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru WRX STI
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshwrx04 View Post
Hey bud! I'm the other "occurrence". My used case that i sent in (701) for closed deck and 1/2 studs pulled on one of the outer holes. They sent my builder a time cert, got that in and put it back together and had another one pull!
Now i had two options... Get a other new case, re machine everything, line hone (arp case bolts). Or time cert every hole. So I'm going with time certs on every one! Very frustrating as ive been waiting months on my build. And into it alot of money.
The other occurrence he's actually talking about is me. I have the same builder as the Thread creator. Mine happened on reassembly of the block. And my occurrence was maybe 4 weeks ago, but I trust my machinist and he says the other holes were near perfect.
Lenny2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 10:36 PM   #12
Joshwrx04
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 135429
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens WA
Vehicle:
'05 Cornfed CGM STi
94 Legacy SS

Default

I pmd you rustler
Joshwrx04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 10:38 PM   #13
Joshwrx04
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 135429
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens WA
Vehicle:
'05 Cornfed CGM STi
94 Legacy SS

Default

Mine also happened on reassembly of the block!
First one let go, pulled the heads back off, got the time sert installed, then reassembled and another let go. You could imagine the frustration of my builder! Lol
Joshwrx04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 10:59 PM   #14
slide
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1130
Join Date: Mar 2000
Vehicle:
2013 STI Hatch
DGM

Default

Wow this sucks. I wonder if the future install will involve some sort of sleeve for the head studs... That would suck...

Or like the old a-series motors, the "s" model they actually installed an additional head stud...
slide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2015, 11:52 PM   #15
user1029
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57064
Join Date: Mar 2004
Vehicle:
2008 STi IAG built
HTA86 E85 Kel272s Cos IM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wEaK Squad View Post
Mine hold 40psi perfectly!
Yeah but if you accumulate heat cycles say from driving to work, then going to Applebees with your buddies for lunch (god I hate that place), then go up your date to Golden Corral, then to the movies, then back her place, then I think that is where the 1/2 stud problems arise
user1029 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 12:36 AM   #16
vicious_fishes
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 158864
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aussieland
Vehicle:
2003 SOHC destroker

Default

are ourfront taking responsibility or are they blaming an install error like every other time anything ever goes wrong for anyone? (not that it isn't often the case...)
vicious_fishes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 02:11 AM   #17
Lenny2005
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 289657
Join Date: Jul 2011
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru WRX STI
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by user1029 View Post
Yeah but if you accumulate heat cycles say from driving to work, then going to Applebees with your buddies for lunch (god I hate that place), then go up your date to Golden Corral, then to the movies, then back her place, then I think that is where the 1/2 stud problems arise
And that's also what I've been told! Now Rustler is the first case anyone has heard of it actually happening while driving. Mine pulled out while being Tq Plate Honed. Let's see if this keeps on going! I really like Outfronts work with the closed decks and all, but the half inch studs seem to be an issue now.
Lenny2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 03:21 AM   #18
DisoDisp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 187648
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Finland
Vehicle:
2007 WRX

Default

As in the other thread, this is why we use 14mm studs, proper thread engagement. Which is not possible with 1/2" studs.

I remember outfront being very defensive too saying their thread engagement is perfect and noone has ever had issues, much like the closed deck blocks that never fail
DisoDisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 03:57 AM   #19
waylouderthanyou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 266168
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, Fl
Vehicle:
2007 WRX STI
Satin White Pearl

Default

This is troubling, i just had outfront build my shortblock and machine my 703 case halves for 1/2'' headstuds. In for more info.

CAN ANYONE ELABORATE ON HOW ALTITUDE PLAYS INTO THIS?
waylouderthanyou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 08:39 AM   #20
xluben
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 261612
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
2002 WRX - 750WHP
9.5s @ 150mph

Default

Do the Outfront 1/2" studs use a dog point? If not, does the stud bottom out in the hole or does it bottom out on the shaft of the stud (where the threads end)? How much torque are you applying when installing the studs into the block?

Dog point:



xluben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 10:07 AM   #21
Bariga
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 179846
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Renton, WA
Vehicle:
07 STi Limited
EFR 8374 TS EWG

Default

why the **** did you torq it so much ?
100 is more than enough,
Bariga is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 10:37 AM   #22
Razgeiz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 358782
Join Date: Jun 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Springfield, Illinois
Vehicle:
2013 STi
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
why the **** did you torq it so much ?
100 is more than enough,
That was my thoughts as well
Razgeiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 11:23 AM   #23
fastblueufo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 212154
Join Date: May 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: fast performance tuning
Vehicle:
02 billet crank
pauter rods, pt5857, E85

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
why the **** did you torq it so much ?
100 is more than enough,
Actually the heads studs are to be torqued in the 140 ft/lbs range. At least that's what arp recommends.
fastblueufo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 11:53 AM   #24
rustler753
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 372764
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Actually the heads studs are to be torqued in the 140 ft/lbs range. At least that's what arp recommends.
What he said ^

Outfront over the phone recommends the torque values we used, even on AR 625+s call for as much or even more torque than 100ft/lbs let alone 14mm or 1/2" studs.

According to ASF and Outfront Motorsports, there will safely be enough material to time-sert the studs for 1/2" studs. And since there was a fellow who time serted one stud only to have another stud strip as well....you will have to correct every headstud hole with a time-sert.

That is a very important event to consider, as now I am certain that if the block has seen heat cycles, just putting in 1/2" studs will not be a bullet proof solution and something else like a time-sert is required or else you will eventually see failure, it will only be a matter of time if the car is regularly driven and then pushed hard in a track environment, whether it is a few months or a year or so...take your 40psi block to a road course track and see how it'll hold up and not just highway pulls every once and awhile. I bet the outcome won't be pretty.
rustler753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2015, 12:07 PM   #25
Joshwrx04
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 135429
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens WA
Vehicle:
'05 Cornfed CGM STi
94 Legacy SS

Default

Seems like time sert'ing is the only way to go.

Pmd you again rustler
Joshwrx04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.