Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday March 23, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2015, 08:41 PM   #51
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshwrx04 View Post
I had a perfectly good set of l19's i should have kept. Lol
1/2 are far superior than the 11mm L19's

Outfront
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 08-24-2015 at 09:26 PM.
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 08-24-2015, 08:55 PM   #52
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyK View Post
Yup, companies love to use the customer as their test bed. And the 1st handout of the new and improved will not likely go to you, rather someone else.

I'm sad now.
This stud design has been out for years, in fact we had 1/2" head studs for EJ series motors for over 12 years now, we just made some changes but that was 2+ years ago, Your statement above does not even come close to applying to this thread

Outfront

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 08-24-2015 at 09:27 PM.
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:01 PM   #53
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustler753 View Post
Long story short, 1/2" headstuds pulled threads out of the outer stud on cylinder 4. This was on a used block that saw some decent heat cycles but at only 21psi of boost. Studs were torqued 115 corners, 120 centers.

After ASF Machine and Outfront have been in contact, it was concluded that this is not the only occurrence of threads being pulled and further investigations are required in new/old block strengths and heat cycles the block has seen.

In the mean time it was also determined as an immediate fix to time-sert all the headstuds.

Thoughts? 4th time this block has been out of the car, I'm just a little tired of being everyone else's test dummy with me being the one who pays for all the R&D in the end. Non-sponsored customers don't have an endless wallet!

]
the above in red was only about Josh's motor

And finally to the OP:
I did not do the machining to yours or lenny's blocks
I did not install your sleeves
I did not tune your car
I am not using you as a test dummy
I did not assemble your block

someone said they bought a CD block and 1/2 studded block from Rally Candi? that also had the studs pull out? We do not have an invoice to that company and can not confirm that we did the 1/2 stud machining either. If you can produce the invoice with the correct block # we would be glad to look into the issue. BTW it is possible that someone bought our CD block and tapped it themselves???

Outfront

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 08-24-2015 at 09:29 PM.
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:07 PM   #54
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by user1029 View Post
I talked to JJ about the IAG ARP2000 1/2" studs that was a part of their closed deck/O-ring package which CJ make 1000awhp on. JJ told me that IAG has modified their approach for installing 1/2" studs in comparison to Outfront. He postulated that the main overlooked problem is the accumulation of metal shavings at the bottom of the 1/2" stud during installation. This build up of metal shavings acts as an impedance as the stud is advanced further inward to that level. This hindrance results in the deformation of threads as the head studs are torqued down tighter against that resistance.

To work around that, IAG has a machine that sprays coolant as the stud is advanced inward thereby preventing the potential accumulation of metal shavings at the very bottom. This allows for increased atraumatic purchase of the 1/2" stud against the threads as there would be nothing fighting against it.
sorry User 1029, for over a year now the holes are thoroughly cleaned with a new process and test fitted with an actual stud that has been marked to confirm the stud reaches the bottom

Outfront
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:09 PM   #55
wEaK Squad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337250
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlanta
Default

This is nothing short of hilarious




I like how everyone has been loving any and all things outfront until iag produces a similar setup and now everyone says iag is the holy grail.... let's not forget Jeff was running 9.4X last year on his setup and ran what looked like countless passes without issue
wEaK Squad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:13 PM   #56
Joshwrx04
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 135429
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Stevens WA
Vehicle:
'05 Cornfed CGM STi
94 Legacy SS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
1/2 are far superior than the l19's



Outfront

Outfront has done everything they can to take care of my situation and i am in no way talking bad about them. They have done nothing but help.
I actually plan on getting another cd sb from them in the future for another project.

I would have liked to send you guys my case for r&d, but how much I'm already in this build so far i did not want to pay out again to have the new case re prepped, honed, blue printed ect.
Joshwrx04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:57 PM   #57
Lenny2005
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 289657
Join Date: Jul 2011
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru WRX STI
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
the above in red was only about Josh's motor

And finally to the OP:
I did not do the machining to yours or lenny's blocks
I did not install your sleeves
I did not tune your car
I am not using you as a test dummy
I did not assemble your block

someone said they bought a CD block and 1/2 studded block from Rally Candi? that also had the studs pull out? We do not have an invoice to that company and can not confirm that we did the 1/2 stud machining either. If you can produce the invoice with the correct block # we would be glad to look into the issue. BTW it is possible that someone bought our CD block and tapped it themselves???

Outfront
My head stud machining was done by you guys, however, the first person to install the head studs wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. ASF Machine got me all taken care of though!
Lenny2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 10:11 PM   #58
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenny2005 View Post
My head stud machining was done by you guys, however, the first person to install the head studs wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. ASF Machine got me all taken care of though!
thanks for clearing that up!

Outfront
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 10:16 PM   #59
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wEaK Squad View Post
This is nothing short of hilarious




I like how everyone has been loving any and all things outfront until iag produces a similar setup and now everyone says iag is the holy grail.... let's not forget Jeff was running 9.4X last year on his setup and ran what looked like countless passes without issue
X2, and still to date not one failure on an Outfront CD block, even with bad tunes, come cant some one break one yet? three years going, not one? and regardless of how cool the other stuff appears there is a lot to be said about hundreds in the real world.

Outfront
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 10:23 PM   #60
wEaK Squad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337250
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlanta
Default

Planning to push my v4 pretty hard in the next couple weeks
wEaK Squad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 10:26 PM   #61
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wEaK Squad View Post
Planning to push my v4 pretty hard in the next couple weeks
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 11:01 PM   #62
Lenny2005
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 289657
Join Date: Jul 2011
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru WRX STI
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
thanks for clearing that up!

Outfront

Of course! I like your guys work and that's why I got an entire long block from You guys. The big port heads and customer support are outstanding
Lenny2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 11:27 PM   #63
user1029
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57064
Join Date: Mar 2004
Vehicle:
2008 STi IAG built
HTA86 E85 Kel272s Cos IM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
For clarification: a soft block will not occur by the heat cycles you are talking about. It would only be a super severe overheating. Our 1/2" heads studs are not the issue, if you have issues with your studs (yeah, the ones that look just like the ones we created years ago) you need to go to your builder to find out why

Outfront
Thanks for clearing that up John

lol at highlighting Applebees and Golden Corral
user1029 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 11:57 PM   #64
ALOKIN
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 348177
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: TX
Vehicle:
2002 Bugeye
Haltech GTX3584RS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by user1029 View Post
Thanks for clearing that up John

lol at highlighting Applebees and Golden Corral
Taking a date to the corral gauranteez you teh action afterwards....well that and spiking her mash taters with a rufey while she up for 2nds at teh chocolate wunderfall.....
ALOKIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 02:13 AM   #65
vicious_fishes
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 158864
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aussieland
Vehicle:
2003 SOHC destroker

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
I suppose this is a generic statement of shops in general? To answer your question, Yes, before this thread was started too. BTW, I never blamed an install error either.

Outfront
Thanks. I've seen a few sketchy "won't take responsibility" type acts in the past but it does not appear to be you guys. This thread appears to be a bit of a witch hunt.
vicious_fishes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 03:13 AM   #66
DisoDisp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 187648
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Finland
Vehicle:
2007 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
We only charge $180 to tap for our studs as we are set up to do this daily, what do you charge to prep a block for your studs? can you include the charges for the dowels and gaskets too?

Outfront
We've had this discussion before, but whatever...

Thousands of sets used worldwide...

Our studs come with modified dowels.
Our head gaskets are made to accommodate 14mm studs
And we charge 300 to modify the block and heads in a CNC.

Andy Forrest, Roger Clark and Lateral Performance all use the same 14mm studs, at the top levels of motorsport, without any thread issues, the proof is in the pudding.
DisoDisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 12:40 PM   #67
rustler753
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 372764
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

I keep getting explanations that there are numerous factors at play:

1) The block could be "soft", should have had a rockwell hardness test done, heat cycled too much.
2) 1/2" studs could possibly not remove all the old threads and the new tapped threads were weak
3) The tapping process has changed when my shop was in contact with Ron from outfront from way back up to this point in time

This is stuff that no one told me as the customer when using these studs. I was presented a solution that was a solves-all end all worry free product, not the fact I would have to take into account if the aluminum in the block was "soft", whether or not the tapping process would leave old threads behind or if the tapping process itself changed. If any...ANY of this was discussed with me and presented openly as factors that could effect the performance of the studs ability I would have had to do way more research into head studs. Hell if I knew that potentially a rockwell hardness test would need to be conducted to see if the engine was heat cycled too much, that would have been an immediate red flag and I would need to ask way more questions.

I'm not saying outfront is making a shoddy product and be on the look out. There are clearly numerous and great results from their products. All I know is that I'm left with a repair bill with 5 different people telling me it's this reason why its failed, or the shop made a mistake, or there is an inherent flaw in 1/2" studs, or the aluminum was soft.

I didn't make this thread to call anyone specifically out...this comment:
Quote:
Thoughts? 4th time this block has been out of the car, I'm just a little tired of being everyone else's test dummy with me being the one who pays for all the R&D in the end. Non-sponsored customers don't have an endless wallet!
was a little aggressive, but was more of an overall expression of frustration of my overall situation and I'm sorry if it came out like I was implying it directly to outfront, as I was not. I've been abused by many shops in the past and it was just an overall statement of how it feels at this point. So I apologize to Outfront Motorsports for that.

However in the end this thread and various phone calls devolved into all a bunch of he said and they said and finger pointing meanwhile I'm just sitting on the sidelines with my jaw dropping and my wallet bleeding. As an engineer of multiple fields I can understand the difficulty of solving methods of failures, especially in this industry where there are so many factors at play...At this point nothing else will come of this thread, I'm not getting any richer trying to discuss this and I'm not going to arrive at any solution other than to time-sert the block, eat the costs and move on. On that note I'm out.
rustler753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 03:08 PM   #68
user1029
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57064
Join Date: Mar 2004
Vehicle:
2008 STi IAG built
HTA86 E85 Kel272s Cos IM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALOKIN View Post
Taking a date to the corral gauranteez you teh action afterwards....well that and spiking her mash taters with a rufey while she up for 2nds at teh chocolate wunderfall.....
God bless that place
user1029 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 03:12 PM   #69
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustler753 View Post
I keep getting explanations that there are numerous factors at play:

1) The block could be "soft", should have had a rockwell hardness test done, heat cycled too much.
2) 1/2" studs could possibly not remove all the old threads and the new tapped threads were weak
3) The tapping process has changed when my shop was in contact with Ron from outfront from way back up to this point in time

This is stuff that no one told me as the customer when using these studs. I was presented a solution that was a solves-all end all worry free product, not the fact I would have to take into account if the aluminum in the block was "soft", whether or not the tapping process would leave old threads behind or if the tapping process itself changed. If any...ANY of this was discussed with me and presented openly as factors that could effect the performance of the studs ability I would have had to do way more research into head studs. Hell if I knew that potentially a rockwell hardness test would need to be conducted to see if the engine was heat cycled too much, that would have been an immediate red flag and I would need to ask way more questions.

I'm not saying outfront is making a shoddy product and be on the look out. There are clearly numerous and great results from their products. All I know is that I'm left with a repair bill with 5 different people telling me it's this reason why its failed, or the shop made a mistake, or there is an inherent flaw in 1/2" studs, or the aluminum was soft.

I didn't make this thread to call anyone specifically out...this comment:

was a little aggressive, but was more of an overall expression of frustration of my overall situation and I'm sorry if it came out like I was implying it directly to outfront, as I was not. I've been abused by many shops in the past and it was just an overall statement of how it feels at this point. So I apologize to Outfront Motorsports for that.

However in the end this thread and various phone calls devolved into all a bunch of he said and they said and finger pointing meanwhile I'm just sitting on the sidelines with my jaw dropping and my wallet bleeding. As an engineer of multiple fields I can understand the difficulty of solving methods of failures, especially in this industry where there are so many factors at play...At this point nothing else will come of this thread, I'm not getting any richer trying to discuss this and I'm not going to arrive at any solution other than to time-sert the block, eat the costs and move on. On that note I'm out.
The remaining thread from stock is .010 which is .005" per side. then the tap goes down the hole and removes 90% of the material in this area, thus it would be undetectable by the eye and is really splitting hairs. in fact I will make a video or show some pics in the near future to show and explain this.

so no there is not an issue with stud design. When you called and talked to the shop you talked to our shortblock assembler. Maybe I wasn't here but I am the one that does the tapping. I can not know what you two discussed about the procedure. We use a mill to do the tapping, I do not know what your shop uses. You can have 5 guys tap 5 holes and they could all be different in quality such as side loading a tap, pressure, cutting oils, etc. Timeserting is the only solution for what you have at this point. timesert makes a super long 1.5" insert, is that what is getting installed? , I suggest to remove the upper lip of the insert so that the counter boring process is eliminated. Installing all 12 timeserts should be a $300-600 range depending on the shop, their speed, etc.

Doing this is not normal nor have we ever seen a soft block yet because it's only a guess at this point. remember the only one we have had an issue with is getting timeserts to and we don't get it back

Look, we had a customer that wanted to do 14mm studs, we told him we would not do the job as we are not set up for the tapping. he went to another local shop. we get it back to do the boreing with deck plates. one of the studs pulled out! he went back to the shop and they would do nothing for him, they had charged him $850 to tap the block and then told him to pound sand and that it couldn't be the machining anything is possible.

good luck with your project
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 03:44 PM   #70
ALOKIN
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 348177
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: TX
Vehicle:
2002 Bugeye
Haltech GTX3584RS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by user1029 View Post
God bless that place
God bless Murica...and the choclate wonderwall


Last edited by ALOKIN; 08-25-2015 at 04:45 PM.
ALOKIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 06:16 PM   #71
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wEaK Squad View Post
This is nothing short of hilarious




I like how everyone has been loving any and all things outfront until iag produces a similar setup and now everyone says iag is the holy grail.... let's not forget Jeff was running 9.4X last year on his setup and ran what looked like countless passes without issue
9.4X was this year just saying.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 09:12 PM   #72
wEaK Squad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337250
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlanta
Default

Hahaha well exxxccccccccuse me
wEaK Squad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 09:37 PM   #73
binny
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 198108
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
MY98 WRX
Blue

Default

What kind of temps would the block need to reach for it to go "soft" ?

You would imagine the temps of the alloy around the liners would be higher than where the studs are tapped

I would have thought the operating temps reached (even if overheated) in that area of the block wouldn't be high enough to alter the hardness of the alloy ??
binny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 10:29 PM   #74
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by binny View Post
What kind of temps would the block need to reach for it to go "soft" ?

You would imagine the temps of the alloy around the liners would be higher than where the studs are tapped

I would have thought the operating temps reached (even if overheated) in that area of the block wouldn't be high enough to alter the hardness of the alloy ??
my guess would be 300+ this would be a severe overheating, perhaps loss of coolant and continues to drive. buying a used case no one could know. the stud bosses are attached to the cylinders so they would see higher than the outside of the cases. if we had possession of the block we would cut it up into pieces and test.

Cadillac northstar 4.7 aluminum v8 had issues with this, car would overheat and need new head gaskets, when the heads are going back on the bolts would pull the threads in the block one after another, very common. timesert makes a special kit just for that motor.
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 10:32 PM   #75
ALOKIN
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 348177
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: TX
Vehicle:
2002 Bugeye
Haltech GTX3584RS

Default

Depends on the alloy. But its always pretty close to its melting point. ~700F is a ballpark annealing temp for most Al alloys.

I hate heat treating Al.
ALOKIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.