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Old 10-08-2019, 01:12 PM   #426
dwf137
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People who drive cars with a lot of feedback claim it's required for handling. People who drive cars with minimal feedback still feel as though their car can handle well.

People who drive manual transmissions claim it's required for engagement. People who drive automatics claim they can still be engaged while driving.

All subjective. If it does what you want it to, that's all that matters. Arguments about semantics are pointless.
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Old 10-08-2019, 01:48 PM   #427
godfather2112
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Guys, listen. The CVT transmission provides the most performance and feedback than any other transmission... ever.


Fight me on it, come at me!
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:17 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Guys, listen. The CVT transmission provides the most performance and feedback than any other transmission... ever.


Fight me on it, come at me!
PowerGlide forever!!!
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:05 PM   #429
Pre
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Guys, listen. The CVT transmission provides the most performance and feedback than any other transmission... ever.


Fight me on it, come at me!
"You want some of this old man?"

.....NO!!!!

If it has a CVT, don't care what it is, it's off the table. no. That was a factor in my last and recent purchase. Like the 2.4L DIT OB, but loathe the CVT and the iPad.

I am starting to look at C7's now, keep coming down in price!
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:26 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
"You want some of this old man?"

.....NO!!!!

If it has a CVT, don't care what it is, it's off the table. no. That was a factor in my last and recent purchase. Like the 2.4L DIT OB, but loathe the CVT and the iPad.

I am starting to look at C7's now, keep coming down in price!
In truth no manufacturer will care what you (or any one like you) cares about because you don't buy new. They see no profit in anything you purchase, so you are at the mercy of what the general public is willing to buy. Your Dollar has no voting power.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:24 PM   #431
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Your Dollar has no voting power.
Story of my life right here.

Also, regarding the "is feedback included in handling?"

I think of basically everything like stats in a game. If I increase the handling stat, is my car performing better, despite the fact that I'm getting the same (100% lack of tactile) feedback? Cool. Then handling went up.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:39 PM   #432
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In truth no manufacturer will care what you (or any one like you) cares about because you don't buy new. They see no profit in anything you purchase, so you are at the mercy of what the general public is willing to buy. Your Dollar has no voting power.
LMAO Man you need some brains. I haven't bought a used car in 25 years. All my vehicles are bought new. I just bought a new truck 2 weeks ago buddy. And my last hot hatch was bought new, and my DD was bought new, and the car before and the car before that. How about no clue for $1000 Alex!
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:12 AM   #433
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LMAO Man you need some brains. I haven't bought a used car in 25 years. All my vehicles are bought new. I just bought a new truck 2 weeks ago buddy. And my last hot hatch was bought new, and my DD was bought new, and the car before and the car before that. How about no clue for $1000 Alex!
I guess I do. For some reason I thought you bought your cars used and your bikes new.

You bought the Leaf new?
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:42 AM   #434
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I guess I do. For some reason I thought you bought your cars used and your bikes new.

You bought the Leaf new?
I think Hondaslayer picked up a used leaf.

I could very well be mixing everyone up too.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:10 AM   #435
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OK, People...Update your profiles will all details of your life!!

CC and SS numbers will be appreciated.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:22 AM   #436
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I guess I do. For some reason I thought you bought your cars used and your bikes new.

You bought the Leaf new?
I leased the Leaf brand new in the box from Nissan then bought it from them when the lease was up. I did this on purpose because I knew it would be 10+ thousand dollars cheaper than buying it new in the first place. It ended up being less than I had anticipated. Nissan ate all the depreciation, not me, and since the first day, well it will be basically a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty on the car. So I took it off the lot brand new but gamed the price.

I checked, since your stupid comments.....the last time I bought a used car was 1995. The last time I bought a used motorcycle was in 1999. Your brain has no power man. Watch wtf you say to people or gather some facts first.

I may be looking at getting a Z06 or GS 7 spd manual after the C8 has been out a year or two because Chebbie's depreciate so hard, so quick, it'd be foolish to buy new and lose 20k, 30k, or more in depreciation in just a few years. Between their factory incentives, dealer discounts, and depreciation, it absolutely makes no sense to buy anything new from them imo. If so it'll be my first used bought car in a quarter of a century. 25% of C7 sales are manuals.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:24 AM   #437
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I leased the Leaf brand new in the box from Nissan then bought it from them when the lease was up. I did this on purpose because I knew it would be 10+ thousand dollars cheaper than buying it new in the first place. It ended up being less than I had anticipated. Nissan ate all the depreciation, not me, and since the first day, well it will be basically a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty on the car. So I took it off the lot brand new but gamed the price.

I checked, since your stupid comments.....the last time I bought a used car was 1995. The last time I bought a used motorcycle was in 1999. Your brain has no power man. Watch wtf you say to people or gather some facts first.
Letís pump the brakes a bit. It was a simple incorrect idea that he thought you bought used. This isnít a big deal.

Letís all big family hug it out.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:27 AM   #438
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I think Hondaslayer picked up a used leaf.

I could very well be mixing everyone up too.
No you are accurate. He did. See some people on here can think. Might be why they DD a nice F150 and have a M2 for a weekend car, and talk financials/investing, and gained moderator status. Because I don't think you sucked anyone's dick to get to where you are.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:30 AM   #439
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No you are accurate. He did. See some people on here can think. Might be why they DD a nice F150 and have a M2 for a weekend car, and talk financials/investing, and gained moderator status. Because I don't think you sucked anyone's dick to get to where you are.
Sometimes I question if sucking the dick would have been an easier route. I mean, itís not weird unless you make eye contact, right?


RIGHT?!?!?!
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:43 AM   #440
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Can we agree that electric steering is bad?

Normal
Comfort
Sport

Why is it that neither of these three choices translate road input like standard rack-and-pinion steering?

*sigh*

Digital vs Vinyl


*I'll see myself out the door with a crate full of 12" music.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:04 PM   #441
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Feedback is, and always has been, a major component of handling. Handling is not a term just used for automobiles. It is a term which was around long before the car, and always carries the same principles.
Feedback is NOT a component of handling. Handling is not even a component of handling. Handling is a categorization of how well or poorly something responds to steering inputs and navigates a corner. Feedback is a rating of what you feel as a driver or occupant. Both are subjective and lacking in any physical measured classification. You can measure speed through a slalom. You can measure maximum lateral acceleration around a skid pad. You can measure 0-60 and 60-0. There is no composite calculation which blends all of those performance numbers into some singular value which you can call "handling".

How a car handles depends on measurables: spring rates, suspension geometry, roll centers, weight distribution, chassis rigidity, bending modes, dynamic weight transfer, braking force, traction force, etc. How it all works together becomes the above measurable performance numbers, which are the actual targets a manufacturer is going to identify when they set about designing the car.

What you're talking about is the subjective opinion that a car with higher feedback handles better. This is false. Feedback is not a measure of steering response. It is not a measure of maximum grip and road holding. It is not a measure of acceleration or deceleration. Higher feedback can promote more fun and make a driver feel more involved in the driving experience. It doesn't make the car faster or better at navigating a corner.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:09 PM   #442
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Sometimes I question if sucking the dick would have been an easier route. I mean, itís not weird unless you make eye contact, right?


RIGHT?!?!?!


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Old 10-09-2019, 01:04 PM   #443
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Feedback is NOT a component of handling. Handling is not even a component of handling. Handling is a categorization of how well or poorly something responds to steering inputs and navigates a corner. Feedback is a rating of what you feel as a driver or occupant. Both are subjective and lacking in any physical measured classification. You can measure speed through a slalom. You can measure maximum lateral acceleration around a skid pad. You can measure 0-60 and 60-0. There is no composite calculation which blends all of those performance numbers into some singular value which you can call "handling".

How a car handles depends on measurables: spring rates, suspension geometry, roll centers, weight distribution, chassis rigidity, bending modes, dynamic weight transfer, braking force, traction force, etc. How it all works together becomes the above measurable performance numbers, which are the actual targets a manufacturer is going to identify when they set about designing the car.

What you're talking about is the subjective opinion that a car with higher feedback handles better. This is false. Feedback is not a measure of steering response. It is not a measure of maximum grip and road holding. It is not a measure of acceleration or deceleration. Higher feedback can promote more fun and make a driver feel more involved in the driving experience. It doesn't make the car faster or better at navigating a corner.
It would be interesting if the manufacturers could come to a "handling Standard" (maybe the magazines and not the makers). Then again most manufacturers don't want an apple to apple comparison unless they know they are going to win.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:10 PM   #444
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Letís pump the brakes a bit. It was a simple incorrect idea that he thought you bought used. This isnít a big deal.

Letís all big family hug it out.
Pre's on a rampage today. I became one of his targets because I confused him with someone else, so I made the original mistake. Don't think I said anything that was personal so I am not sure why the response is, but I can deal with it for a while.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:21 PM   #445
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It would be interesting if the manufacturers could come to a "handling Standard" (maybe the magazines and not the makers). Then again most manufacturers don't want an apple to apple comparison unless they know they are going to win.
At least one OEM has a test. It doesn't get published, but they run a path deviation test to see how far a vehicle translates off the driver intended path while accelerating around a corner. They use a fixed diameter circle (skid pad), ramp up to a target lateral acceleration (sub limit), and then tip in and accelerate at a target longitudinal acceleration and use GPS to measure the change in radius as the tires reach maximum capacity and the vehicle enters terminal understeer.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:27 PM   #446
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At least one OEM has a test. It doesn't get published, but they run a path deviation test to see how far a vehicle translates off the driver intended path while accelerating around a corner. They use a fixed diameter circle (skid pad), ramp up to a target lateral acceleration (sub limit), and then tip in and accelerate at a target longitudinal acceleration and use GPS to measure the change in radius as the tires reach maximum capacity and the vehicle enters terminal understeer.
Do any of them measure transitional states? In almost every ill handling vehicle I have driven is they handle steady state just fine, but the weight shifts are what sends things into downward spiral.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:27 PM   #447
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Can we agree that electric steering is bad?

Normal
Comfort
Sport

Why is it that neither of these three choices translate road input like standard rack-and-pinion steering?
Nope. I won't agree to that statement. I have come to love my Golf R's steering. Hard to put it into words, but I just plain like it. Perhaps it's because of the progressive system that VW has developed - variable tooth pitch that actually builds mechanical resistance to the wheel, rather than just artificial resistance. I've certainly driven electric systems that suck and are numb, but I'd hesitate to put out a blanket statement that they're all bad.

I recall that my WRX felt almost identical to my wife's outback, except for the steering ratio... when I get in the outback, it feels really dated. The linear ratio is pretty lame. The car also feels more "strained" when turning than my R. Again, hard to put it into words, but it just feels like the R wants to turn, whereas the outback is strained, and not in a good way. It's not road feedback that I'm feeling, it's more of like feedback from the hydraulic pump that I'm feeling... The R still transmits road feedback, but there's none of that extra feedback from the hydraulic pump.

Last edited by dwf137; 10-09-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:38 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post

I may be looking at getting a Z06 or GS 7 spd manual after the C8 has been out a year or two because Chebbie's depreciate so hard, so quick, it'd be foolish to buy new and lose 20k, 30k, or more in depreciation in just a few years. Between their factory incentives, dealer discounts, and depreciation, it absolutely makes no sense to buy anything new from them imo. If so it'll be my first used bought car in a quarter of a century. 25% of C7 sales are manuals.


My 2017 Z06/Z07 is M7.

Unless you donít like rowing through smooth gears with a very short shifter and butter soft clutch that really does grab well, youíll probably love driving that beast.

Coming from a heavily modified 2014 STi, itís another galaxy of love.

Let me know if I can help you in any way

Best of luck
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:41 PM   #449
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Cheaper and more reliable than any other supercar. It performed mid-pack against cars twice it's price. Like the r35 of it's time.
The NSX didn't run mid-pack with cars twice its price (unless we're talking '91 and referencing the 348) it ran mid-pack with sports cars that cost less than the NSX and those became increasingly faster as time wore one. Hell, the Ferrari 360, 996, 996 GT3, 996TT C5 Z06, LS F-body, Viper GT2, Viper ACR and Z3M (S54) were alive during the NSX's life.

R35 was a game changer, much like the C6Z06.

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I'd genuinely be curious, if you want to send me a PM. I promise I won't write back a 10 page essay. I'm just curious about other's perspectives. I see the 90s jap cars as better than anything america offered and better value than ze germans, while also offering better reliability than either, so long as you didn't get the top tier models with wonky garbage like 4 wheel steering.
Viper, LT1 C4, LT4 C4, C4 ZR1, Esprit, E36, 928, 964, 964T, 993, 993TT existed during the time the Japanese sports cars were in their prime. The performance models all hung around [email protected] in the quarter mile with the Syclone nipping at their heels. The fast Japanese models were not cheap, but certain models (FD RX7 and Supra TT) gained attention because they came out of nowhere and were good all around cars, the middle ground between M3 and ZR1. Their reputation for aftermarket goodies is what built up the fascination over the decades.

3000GT VR4/Stealth was a pig throughout its production life and their little brother (Eclipse/Talon) reigned as the popular DSM. I honestly don't know how these cars sold once they attained a high price tag. 300ZX TT was a great GT car and had the looks, was probably the best budget version of the NSX. Neither the ZX or DSM twins gained the notoriety of the aftermarket performance of their competition.

Aside from the Supra and NSX, reliability was not a strong point for the Japanese sports cars.

NSX was significantly more money than anything with the engine in the front. Performance was on par with Supra, RX7 and LT1 C4. But it was fun to drive, looked fantastic and had Honda's best interior.

911 Turbo was significantly more money than the Japanese sports cars, but it was also on an entirely different level.

Supra leads pop culture with the amount of power on the stock bottom end. But then the Viper can make 100+ whp more than Supra without touching the heads and have a broad powerband (insert 12 second 1000hp Supra joke here). Then F&F came out and skyrocketed the Supra, and its engine, to stardom, but that wasn't until the 2000's.

I like the Supra, NSX and FD and have driven quite a few of them, honestly surprised that I never bought one. But they were not the best cars at the time, aside from marketing, did not have that great of an impact when they were in production, they merely filled in the gaps. Cheap power = Corvette. Luxury power = 911 TT. Exotic = Ferrari/Lambo

GTR, STi & EVO omitted as we didn't get them.
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Old 10-09-2019, 05:45 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Skylab View Post
Can we agree that electric steering is bad?
Naw, my BRZ had perfect steering. I really liked the steering in the mk7 too, but I put it on "normal" instead of "sport" for racing cause the light steering made mode made for faster driving IMO. Liked the Mk7 more than the Hydrolic Type-RA steering too.
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