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Old 03-20-2021, 10:28 AM   #26
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
In the example of the tire which has a life of 10/32" to 4/32", to achieve a delta of 2/32" prior to the tires being at 50% of their life, the fronts would have to wear at least twice the rate of the rears. And as someone eloquently pointed out earlier in this thread, if the fronts and rears are wearing at that much of a different rate, it is a sign of an altogether separate problem.
You're assuming too much. Subaru's maximum-difference spec isn't a target to try to get close to. It's more like a "wear limit" that you'd really prefer to avoid getting close to.

Understand that as you drive, wheel camber varies from what the alignment shop sets it to (and toe varies slightly as a consequence of that). Front and rear suspensions don't vary camber with ride height at the same rates (called 'camber gain' if you're into vehicle dynamics). This affects wear rates across the tread, which depends on both your alignment shop's settings and your individual driving. Subaru only has loose control over your car's alignment (the acceptable range of camber settings is fairly loose), and neither Subaru nor I have any control over your driving. Is there much hard cornering in your driving? Much hard braking? None of either and mostly highway driving? The wear patterns are different for all three. Optimize tread wear for one of those at some risk of hurting the other two.


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No matter how you twist it, tire rotation costs time and sometimes money. This is why I limit the number of rotations to enough so each tire sits on the front for 50% and on the rear for 50% of the life of the tires (or if using reversible tires each tire sits on each wheel for 25% of the life of the tires)
Except that you have no guarantee that tire rotations at 7500 miles are going to be more likely to end up with each tire seeing 25% of its life at each corner of the car than you'd have by doing the rotations at 5000 mile intervals. If anything, and you get either more or less life out of your tires than initially expected (where you'd either be into a 4th or 5th rotation @ 7500 miles, or not make it to the third rotation respectively), a 5000 mile scheme would be more likely to come out closer to 'even'.

That aside, you're always going to be better off heading off the development of adverse wear patterns by rotating earlier before any uneven wear has as good of a chance of getting started.


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Very good point and worthy of a separate discussion. The bigger tire shops offer free rotations, balance and flat repairs over the life of the tires, but to avoid having to pay that cost, they can make it cost you too much of your time such that it makes more sense to have a mom & pop shop do the rotation for a small fee.
Guess I'll have to take your word for it . . . I've always done my own tire rotations (sometimes at less than 500 mile intervals on the car that I drive pretty hard on real road courses (HPDE) as well as on the street). It's getting close to time to put the summer rubber back on the WRX, possibly this coming week. I'm 73, if that matters.


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Old 03-20-2021, 01:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
You're assuming too much. Subaru's maximum-difference spec isn't a target to try to get close to. It's more like a "wear limit" that you'd really prefer to avoid getting close to.
Thanks for chiming in. Still, even in a case where there is only one front/rear rotation of the tires in the lifetime of the tires (assuming the tires have a lifetime of 10/32" to 4/32"), the fronts would have to wear close to twice the rate of the rears to achieve a delta of 2/32" at the 50% life of the tires. I haven't done the math yet, but if you rotate partial x pattern three times in the life of the tires, the fronts would have to wear at least four times the rate of the rears to achieve a delta of 2/32". This is something I am 0% worried about. I have done the math. What I wonder is have you, the others in this thread and Subaru done the math?

Quote:
Understand that as you drive, wheel camber varies from what the alignment shop sets it to (and toe varies slightly as a consequence of that). Front and rear suspensions don't vary camber with ride height at the same rates (called 'camber gain' if you're into vehicle dynamics). This affects wear rates across the tread, which depends on both your alignment shop's settings and your individual driving. Subaru only has loose control over your car's alignment (the acceptable range of camber settings is fairly loose), and neither Subaru nor I have any control over your driving. Is there much hard cornering in your driving? Much hard braking? None of either and mostly highway driving? The wear patterns are different for all three. Optimize tread wear for one of those at some risk of hurting the other two.
Good points. This is why one should check their tread regularly to see if there is something funky going on which may warrant something other than each tire being on each corner for 1/4 of the life.

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Except that you have no guarantee that tire rotations at 7500 miles are going to be more likely to end up with each tire seeing 25% of its life at each corner of the car than you'd have by doing the rotations at 5000 mile intervals. If anything, and you get either more or less life out of your tires than initially expected (where you'd either be into a 4th or 5th rotation @ 7500 miles, or not make it to the third rotation respectively), a 5000 mile scheme would be more likely to come out closer to 'even'.
As mentioned to someone else in this forum, (assuming 30k tire life) if I rotate my tires just three times in the life of the tires such that each tire is in each location 1/4 of the life of the tires, I will get more life than those who rotate theirs every 5,000 miles - unless the tires last for precisely an amount of miles which is divisible by 20,000. Here is why. Let's say the tires will last 30,000. To get each tire on each location 1/4 of the life, I rotate every 7,500 miles. You rotate every 5,000 miles. After 20k, each of your tires will have been in each location 1/4 of the time, but you have 10k to go. During that last 10k, you continue your rotations every 5k miles. What you end up with is each tire being in two spots for 10k and the other two spots for 5k, while I get each tire in each spot for 7.5k. Be honest with yourself and ask which of those two is better for the tires?

Quote:
That aside, you're always going to be better off heading off the development of adverse wear patterns by rotating earlier before any uneven wear has as good of a chance of getting started.
By that rationale, we shouldn't wait until 5,000 and should rotate them every 500 or 1,000 miles.
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Old 03-20-2021, 04:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
Thanks for chiming in. Still, even in a case where there is only one front/rear rotation of the tires in the lifetime of the tires (assuming the tires have a lifetime of 10/32" to 4/32"), the fronts would have to wear close to twice the rate of the rears to achieve a delta of 2/32" at the 50% life of the tires. I haven't done the math yet, but if you rotate partial x pattern three times in the life of the tires, the fronts would have to wear at least four times the rate of the rears to achieve a delta of 2/32". This is something I am 0% worried about. I have done the math. What I wonder is have you, the others in this thread and Subaru done the math?
Why such a fixation on 2/32" delta?


Quote:
As mentioned to someone else in this forum, (assuming 30k tire life) if I rotate my tires just three times in the life of the tires such that each tire is in each location 1/4 of the life of the tires, I will get more life than those who rotate theirs every 5,000 miles - unless the tires last for precisely an amount of miles which is divisible by 20,000. Here is why. Let's say the tires will last 30,000. To get each tire on each location 1/4 of the life, I rotate every 7,500 miles. You rotate every 5,000 miles. After 20k, each of your tires will have been in each location 1/4 of the time, but you have 10k to go. During that last 10k, you continue your rotations every 5k miles. What you end up with is each tire being in two spots for 10k and the other two spots for 5k, while I get each tire in each spot for 7.5k. Be honest with yourself and ask which of those two is better for the tires?
I think you're assuming too much. How do you know that you're going to get 30,000 rather than 40,000 or 24,000?

For street duty only, I can count on getting 10,000 miles per hundred treadwear, various cars, various tires. But sometimes I get 12,500 miles per hundred, and I once got over 20,000/100 (though a lot of those miles were my wife's). IOW, there's a lot of variation. You should probably understand that I don't take corners "gently" unless forced to do so by other traffic . . . not exactly consistent with the idea of getting long tire tread life. Unless there's something abusive in your driving (such as lots of hard braking from moderate or higher speed, or you have an early-morning newspaper delivery route) you should expect to do better.


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By that rationale, we shouldn't wait until 5,000 and should rotate them every 500 or 1,000 miles.
Once you catch an uneven wear pattern starting to develop you probably shouldn't wait the full 5000 miles. Same goes if you engage in the sort of driving that is expected to cause uneven wear (which is my basis for rotating the track tires between events even if I don't put the "street set" on the car).


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 03-20-2021 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 03-23-2021, 11:46 AM   #29
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Why such a fixation on 2/32" delta?
A reference to a URL was made somewhere earlier in this discussion and at that site, it says for Subaru, the maximum delta should be 2/32". Safety margins are always built in, so I would imagine if 2/32" is what they publish, it is OK to go up to 3/32".


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I think you're assuming too much. How do you know that you're going to get 30,000 rather than 40,000 or 24,000?
It is meant for illustrative purposes only. If it were 24,000, then one rotation each 6k would make more sense than 5k. If 40,000, then one rotation each 5k or 10k would suffice. If 18,000, then one rotation every 4500 miles would be best.

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For street duty only, I can count on getting 10,000 miles per hundred treadwear, various cars, various tires. But sometimes I get 12,500 miles per hundred, and I once got over 20,000/100 (though a lot of those miles were my wife's). IOW, there's a lot of variation. You should probably understand that I don't take corners "gently" unless forced to do so by other traffic . . . not exactly consistent with the idea of getting long tire tread life. Unless there's something abusive in your driving (such as lots of hard braking from moderate or higher speed, or you have an early-morning newspaper delivery route) you should expect to do better.
Good points. If one's driving style during the first half of the tire life is different from their driving style during the second half, then it may warrant uneven frequencies of rotating the tires.


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Once you catch an uneven wear pattern starting to develop you probably shouldn't wait the full 5000 miles. Same goes if you engage in the sort of driving that is expected to cause uneven wear (which is my basis for rotating the track tires between events even if I don't put the "street set" on the car).
In an example of reversible tires which you know will last right around 24,000 miles - and assuming the same type of driving over the life of the tires - why would you rotate at 5,000 (which doesn't divide into 24k by a multiple of 4) rather than 6,000 (which does divide into 24k by a multiple of 4).

And in a 40,000 scenario, how does it help if each tire is on each corner for two separate 5,000 intervals rather than one single 10,000 interval? Same question for a 20k scenario and two separate 2.5k intervals vs. a single 5k interval?
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Old 03-23-2021, 04:17 PM   #30
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Golconda - add to your assumptions that tires wear differently at each end of the car, not only at different rate.
Fronts are steering in most of the cars, rears are not. That puts different stresses on tires and different wear.
Tire rotations try to even out the wear rate and wear pattern.
Rotating tires each 50 miles will get you very even wear at the cost of time and money.
5000 is not bad numbers.
I rotate tires when I do seasonal switchover.

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Old 03-23-2021, 06:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
A reference to a URL was made somewhere earlier in this discussion and at that site, it says for Subaru, the maximum delta should be 2/32". Safety margins are always built in, so I would imagine if 2/32" is what they publish, it is OK to go up to 3/32".
Not gonna get into a discussion on 'safety margins' here.

What I don't understand is why you'd choose to permit wear that's more uneven rather than less so.


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It is meant for illustrative purposes only. If it were 24,000, then one rotation each 6k would make more sense than 5k. If 40,000, then one rotation each 5k or 10k would suffice. If 18,000, then one rotation every 4500 miles would be best.
Micromanaging those numbers sounds like a recipe for driving oneself batty. Especially when your carefully "calculated" rotation intervals don't work out as assumed.


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Good points. If one's driving style during the first half of the tire life is different from their driving style during the second half, then it may warrant uneven frequencies of rotating the tires.
That would be like the case for my Mustang's track tires. They end up being rotated side to side at 300 miles or less when the event is at my home track. Maybe at 400-something if it's a 2-day event. But they've been known to go 1000 miles or so for a distant event. At least that car isn't AWD, but front to rear tire rotation does involve moving the front tires to the rear wheels and vice versa, so that doesn't happen very often.


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In an example of reversible tires which you know will last right around 24,000 miles - and assuming the same type of driving over the life of the tires - why would you rotate at 5,000 (which doesn't divide into 24k by a multiple of 4) rather than 6,000 (which does divide into 24k by a multiple of 4).
I don't try to kid myself that I can estimate tire life that closely. One of the things that I do know is that there's at least a 25% variance at play based on the only tread life information available to me. So do I plan for the minimum (24,000 miles) or a probable 30,000? There's no realistic scheme that's capable of hitting both (every 1500 would do it, but for a car that's street driven only let's be serious)


Quote:
And in a 40,000 scenario, how does it help if each tire is on each corner for two separate 5,000 intervals rather than one single 10,000 interval? Same question for a 20k scenario and two separate 2.5k intervals vs. a single 5k interval?
krzyss has that covered with the part about front tires wearing differently than rear tires.

Like him, I include tire rotation with my WRX's seasonal tire swapping. That would take 8 seasonal swaps (4 years) to allow every tire to have taken its place on every corner of the car. No guarantee they'd be worn out, or even close to it.

You seem to like playing with rotation schedule numbers, so my WRX is sitting at about 18,000 miles and the weather is starting to tell me that it's time for the summer/3-season tires to go back on. It'll be the 4th time tires have been pulled off and others put on. That works out to an average rotation interval of ~4500 miles, so I guess I haven't been all that far off of Subaru's schedule after all.


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 03-23-2021 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:21 PM   #32
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Golconda - add to your assumptions that tires wear differently at each end of the car, not only at different rate.
Fronts are steering in most of the cars, rears are not. That puts different stresses on tires and different wear.
Tire rotations try to even out the wear rate and wear pattern.
Rotating tires each 50 miles will get you very even wear at the cost of time and money.
5000 is not bad numbers.
I rotate tires when I do seasonal switchover.

Krzy***347;
5000 works if the amount of life you will get out of the tires is a multiple of 20,000 such that each tire is on each corner 1/4 of the life. But let's say you get 25,000 miles out of these tires. You rotate every 5000, meaning each tire will spend 2/5 of the life on one corner and 1/5 of the life on each of the other corners. Meanwhile I also get 25000 miles out of the tires but rotate every 6,250 miles such that each tire is on each corner 1/4 of the entire life. Please help me understand in that example why it would make more sense to rotate at 5,000 than at 6,250?
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:38 PM   #33
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Not gonna get into a discussion on 'safety margins' here.

What I don't understand is why you'd choose to permit wear that's more uneven rather than less so.
We all do that - unless our tires wear exactly the same all around.
Without a good answer to this question, I see no point in doing more than 3 rotations in the life of the tires (assuming reversible tires)

40,000 scenario, how does it help if each tire is on each corner for two separate 5,000 intervals rather than one single 10,000 interval? Same question for a 20k scenario and two separate 2.5k intervals vs. a single 5k interval?


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Micromanaging those numbers sounds like a recipe for driving oneself batty. Especially when your carefully "calculated" rotation intervals don't work out as assumed.
One should know from previous experience with the tires on the car how long the tires will last. 30K = 7.5K on each corner. 40K = 10k on each corner.


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I don't try to kid myself that I can estimate tire life that closely. One of the things that I do know is that there's at least a 25% variance at play based on the only tread life information available to me. So do I plan for the minimum (24,000 miles) or a probable 30,000? There's no realistic scheme that's capable of hitting both (every 1500 would do it, but for a car that's street driven only let's be serious)
See my question about the 40k tires. Is there an advantage of having 2x 5k intervals for each tire on each corner vs. having 1x 10k interval for each tire on each corner? If the delta does not become greater than 2/32" (or what is recommended by the manufacturer), then I am puzzled as to what would be advantageous of 2x 5k over 1x 10k.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:07 PM   #34
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you asked a question, then have proceeded to tell us every imaginable reason under the sun why you dont think any of the answers given are applicable to you. i would suggest it is your car, your tires do whatever floats your boat with them.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:34 PM   #35
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^That.

The time wasted in this thread could've been spent just rotating the damn tires, therefore I will not be wasting further time on this thread as I will be rotating my own tires.
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Old 03-25-2021, 03:34 PM   #36
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you asked a question, then have proceeded to tell us every imaginable reason under the sun why you dont think any of the answers given are applicable to you. i would suggest it is your car, your tires do whatever floats your boat with them.
I have yet to see any good reasons in here as to why one should rotate their tires every 5,000 miles instead of at the 1/4 point in the life of the tires. The 1/4 point in the life of the tires will allow for even wear over the life, while every 5,000 only works if the tires last for 20k or 40k.
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Old 03-25-2021, 05:48 PM   #37
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I have yet to see any good reasons in here as to why one should rotate their tires every 5,000 miles instead of at the 1/4 point in the life of the tires. The 1/4 point in the life of the tires will allow for even wear over the life, while every 5,000 only works if the tires last for 20k or 40k.
you do you, but why ask the question if you already think you know the answer?
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Old 03-25-2021, 06:05 PM   #38
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Because your 1/4 estimate may be wrong so why not do this at 5000 miles?

It sounds like that you should start thinking about rotating tires at 5000 miles and you will get to it at a little later time, which is OK because the idea is to rotate the tires.

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Old 03-25-2021, 06:29 PM   #39
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We all do that - unless our tires wear exactly the same all around.
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. In made-up numbers, you seem to think that allowing greater differences in tire wear is somehow better than holding tire wear differences down to smaller amounts. I'm afraid that you're looking at what Subaru considers to be a type of wear limit as being an acceptable target for estimating tire rotation intervals. That's really not what a 'wear limit' is, even if it there is some conservatism built in to it.

Keep in mind that differences in tire revs/mile make the center diff work harder . . . all of the time. Compared to a center diff repair job, a few "extra" tire rotations is cheap money spent. Less down time, too. Not to mention that tire rotations can (to some extent) be done at your convenience. Too bad center diff work isn't as considerate. I'm not trying to say that center diff repair is a guaranteed consequence of allowing greater amounts of tread depth wear, but it is at least a consideration that you should keep in mind.


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Old 03-26-2021, 01:32 AM   #40
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My grasp of the english language isn't so great so forgive me but doesn't this boil down to the quagmire of avoiding having lower tread depth in the rear for hydroplaning safety purposes? The longer you extend the tire rotation interval, the more the fronts will be worn, which will then be rotated to the rear, and have an oversteering situation if the car hydroplanes? So if you rotate more frequently, it essentially eliminates that split-second false sense of security when your front tires maintain control but then your rear tires give up right after that.

The above was my #1 reason for rotating more frequently. #2 was to avoid wearing out the center diff.

And I hate the fact that tire shaving shops are few and far in between. You blow 1 tire going into 15K miles and now you're out of luck and may need a new full set.
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:12 AM   #41
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My grasp of the english language isn't so great so forgive me but doesn't this boil down to the quagmire of avoiding having lower tread depth in the rear for hydroplaning safety purposes? The longer you extend the tire rotation interval, the more the fronts will be worn, which will then be rotated to the rear, and have an oversteering situation if the car hydroplanes? So if you rotate more frequently, it essentially eliminates that split-second false sense of security when your front tires maintain control but then your rear tires give up right after that.
Also a consideration.

What I've been getting at is more about not letting any uneven wear patterns progress as far as extending the recommended tire rotation interval would allow them to.


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Old 03-26-2021, 09:24 AM   #42
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Just to be upfront, I set my reminders at 5K miles but I probably don't change them until closer 5500 to 6K.

Don't want to digress from the topic here but checking for uneven wear should be done every so often inbetween rotations. In the last 2 decades, I've had to get 2 new sets of tires prematurely because of a bad alignment
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Old 03-26-2021, 10:17 AM   #43
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Been following this a little and I really don't get why this has become a rather heated topic. Even if you don't do your own oil changes, many places do free rotations when you get an oil change. Given the recommended oil change interval, why not just do the rotation with every oil change? Takes me an extra 30 min tops to rotate my tires in my driveway when I change my oil. Takes 10 min at a shop with a lift. The whole topic seems a bit moot. if you care about extending the life of your tires you just simply keep up with the alignment and rotate regularly.
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Old 03-27-2021, 10:52 AM   #44
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Do I really need to change my oil that often ? The book says 7500 but I figured they are just cya And Iím too busy and I use good oil from Wally World

Do I really need to get gas when the light comes on ? I mean I should be able to go another ten or fifteen miles before I run out . If I think about how much that adds up to I could probably save five minutes every 4K Miles . Besides that sometimes when I pull into the gas station I have to wait for someone else to finish filling up

Do I really need to brush my teeth twice a day ? I donít have the time and I figured if George Washington was able to get wooden teeth I wouldnít really have to worry if mine fell out

Do I really need to wipe my butt after I poop , I go to a nice store and buy top of the line nut huggers so they should help clean up the mess and I can always just buy more , besides I can save a tree with the tp I donít use and on top of it all think of time that could be saved , 2 dumps a day across a lifetime at 30 seconds a wipe , and sometimes when I sit on the can I have to wait a couple minutes anyways. Then again sometimes I have to wait it line at the cashier to buy said nut huggers

Iím looking for feedback so I can argue every point please , and please try to keep replies to anything that has no common sense because I donít have the time to post here and read pages of text when I could be doing something more productive like maybe getting the tires rotated on my car

Tia

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Old 03-31-2021, 11:07 AM   #45
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you do you, but why ask the question if you already think you know the answer?
Good question.
If I am wrong, I would want to know it.
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Old 03-31-2021, 11:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by krzyss View Post
Because your 1/4 estimate may be wrong so why not do this at 5000 miles?

It sounds like that you should start thinking about rotating tires at 5000 miles and you will get to it at a little later time, which is OK because the idea is to rotate the tires.

Krzy***347;
The illustration I provided assumed you know approximately how many miles you'll get with the tires. If you and I each get ~25,000 miles out of our reversible tires, I will come out ahead of you if I rotate at 6,250 than if you rotate at 5,000. I will end up with each tire on each corner for 1/4 of the life while you will not.
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Old 03-31-2021, 11:12 AM   #47
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I think you missed the point I was trying to make. In made-up numbers, you seem to think that allowing greater differences in tire wear is somehow better than holding tire wear differences down to smaller amounts. I'm afraid that you're looking at what Subaru considers to be a type of wear limit as being an acceptable target for estimating tire rotation intervals. That's really not what a 'wear limit' is, even if it there is some conservatism built in to it.

Keep in mind that differences in tire revs/mile make the center diff work harder . . . all of the time. Compared to a center diff repair job, a few "extra" tire rotations is cheap money spent. Less down time, too. Not to mention that tire rotations can (to some extent) be done at your convenience. Too bad center diff work isn't as considerate. I'm not trying to say that center diff repair is a guaranteed consequence of allowing greater amounts of tread depth wear, but it is at least a consideration that you should keep in mind.


Norm
By this logic, you should rotate the tires every day. Or after every mile driven. Where do we draw the line? Thus we look at what the manufacturer's maximum recommended delta and from experience know that there is a safety margin built in.
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Old 03-31-2021, 11:14 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by kenliu84 View Post
Just to be upfront, I set my reminders at 5K miles but I probably don't change them until closer 5500 to 6K.

Don't want to digress from the topic here but checking for uneven wear should be done every so often inbetween rotations. In the last 2 decades, I've had to get 2 new sets of tires prematurely because of a bad alignment
Do you typically get somewhere between 22,000 to 24,000 miles out of your tires?
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Old 03-31-2021, 01:24 PM   #49
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by Golconda View Post
By this logic, you should rotate the tires every day. Or after every mile driven. Where do we draw the line?
Now you're just being silly . . .


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Thus we look at what the manufacturer's maximum recommended delta and from experience know that there is a safety margin built in.
And what makes that any better than that same mfr's recommended tire rotation schedule? Or even as good as?

You're way too focused on trying to balance a single aspect of tire wear when there are several different effects at play. Most of which have been mentioned or at least hinted at more than once. But it's been about as fruitful as talking to the proverbial post.

I'm out of here . . .




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Old 03-31-2021, 03:42 PM   #50
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Good question.
If I am wrong, I would want to know it.
it sure doesnt seem that way.
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