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Old 08-08-2022, 12:49 PM   #7476
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Moving to EV will be good/bad for Subaru. The good will be that they aren't good at designing engines so that problem (and reliance on CVT's) will be put in the past. The bad is that no matter how much they keep putting it in the Solterra advertisements, symmetrical AWD will also be part of the past as well and Subaru's individuality will be gone. There will be nothing mechanically differentiating a Subaru from any garden variety AWD EV outside of styling.
Doesn't have to be, it's just lines of code. Yes, collaboration with another manu can impact their "symmetrical AWD" marketing chip, but if they ever develop a platform solo, they can have sole control over how power is delivered.

Note: Subaru's symmetrical AWD is "Full time AWD with same-length half shafts" if they dump the "full time" part of their definition, a motor up front and a motor out back would still be symmetrical. Running both motors all the time is inefficient, but they can still do it, again, lines of code, they will just have less range than a part-time system will.

Considering the Solterra is both using the "Symmetrical AWD" marketing term and is a variable system, as apposed to a 50:50 system (though that is the default setting) I think they will be fine. Solterra can go to 70F30R or 40F60R depending on conditions/drive mode.

The only time I foresee them moving from a symmetrical system would be in a performance model with multiple rear motors and one front motor.
Food for thought, the BRZ is not symmetrical AWD and people like it just fine *shrug*
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Old 08-08-2022, 01:26 PM   #7477
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Originally Posted by vapore0n View Post
Opinion incoming.

The WRX was originally sold as a sports car meant to take on cars like the mustang, and probably some exotics like the boxter of that year. A true import car.

Over time, priorities shifted, and so did the market. Cars kept growing in size because families could only afford 1-2 cars. Dads wanted a sports car that could also be a family hauler.

The WRX is what we all (people outside this forum) wanted. A car that could be comfortable for a family of 4 and still be sporty enough for when Dad is by himself or at the track.
The problem is that the WRX has been trying to do too much. This year, on top of sports car and family car, it gets the "wilderness" badge. Now with the death of the STI, Subaru might be pulling the WRX name on more directions.

I always figured the WRX as a poor man's Audi S4 when it first came here. Hence the sedan and wagon variants and standard AWD. Performance was similar for 40% less out of pocket.

Sure people compare everything under the sun when it comes to performance metrics and price point. But to me Subaru was offering a unique package similar to what the upscale Germans were offering.
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Old 08-08-2022, 02:38 PM   #7478
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Yes, I would agree, all Subaru models had better sales than before, but they are all also bigger to meet the needs of the US market.

So even if the all boats were lifted by the same rising tide...the tide was based on meeting the largest market's expectations: Bigger than a GD.
That'd be more easily said if the Lagacy GT didn't exist at the same time as the Impreza WRX.
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Old 08-08-2022, 02:47 PM   #7479
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
I always figured the WRX as a poor man's Audi S4 when it first came here. Hence the sedan and wagon variants and standard AWD. Performance was similar for 40% less out of pocket.

Sure people compare everything under the sun when it comes to performance metrics and price point. But to me Subaru was offering a unique package similar to what the upscale Germans were offering.
That is exactly how Subaru marketed the Bugeye. They had signs at the dealership comparing the S4 to WRX 0-60 in 5.4 seconds.
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Old 08-08-2022, 02:54 PM   #7480
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That'd be more easily said if the Lagacy GT didn't exist at the same time as the Impreza WRX.
I don't get it. Both cars grew in size because their segments required it.

The Legacy GT and WRX were for different buyers, at different price points.
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Old 08-08-2022, 03:27 PM   #7481
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I don't have the numbers in front of me, but maybe you can tell me: Which Subaru models that've been on sale since '02 haven't had more sales for model years 2015-2022 than 2002-2013? I'd imagine the WRX isn't special in that case. Perhaps that model of the WRX isn't special then either, just a victim of the same circumstances as any other Subaru.
Soo, of course sales increased with each model. Some right about doubling.

WRX started out hard with 20K+ sales then tapered off just about as hard with a sink to 8300 in 2010. Then it picked back up to 17K for 2013. VA hits? Jumps one year to 25K up to 33K 2 years later. Then slowly declines....still holding in the 20Ks until the pandemic where it becomes a debate as to exactly why sales slipped back to under 20K. But, in 7 years of sales.....doubling 12 years of sales combined. None of other models did that to their previous gens.

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Yes, I agree. I've owned every generation of USDM WRX. '05 FXT w/ a manual was awesome. The '09 FXT with a CVT was less awesome, but still decent. They will never outsell the NA Forester with a Turbo, unless they go 1.6T, etc.

I'm just saying, the car got bigger due to demand.

For me, if the Legacy Spec.B existed, I wouldn't need a WRX. But it's gone, and the Legacy XT is neutered in comparison. So, for us GD+ WRX buyers we are now older, perhaps have families, and Subaru has to straddle two segments with one car, so the WRX got bigger.
HTCVT didn't hit till 2014MY.

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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Moving to EV will be good/bad for Subaru. The good will be that they aren't good at designing engines so that problem (and reliance on CVT's) will be put in the past. The bad is that no matter how much they keep putting it in the Solterra advertisements, symmetrical AWD will also be part of the past as well and Subaru's individuality will be gone. There will be nothing mechanically differentiating a Subaru from any garden variety AWD EV outside of styling.
Yet they are still the longest lasting in the industry. Seeing plenty of high mile CVTs as well now that they have been out over 10 years. And they've only improved them since then. And you are seemingly forgetting another HUGE factor people come to Subaru. Safety. Have you seen the latest side crash test? With only 7 models tested soo far, the Outback was the only one to receive a good rating? I know it's not a lot of models; but, people see that and react to it. And that's a minor amount of marketing using straight facts.


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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Doesn't have to be, it's just lines of code. Yes, collaboration with another manu can impact their "symmetrical AWD" marketing chip, but if they ever develop a platform solo, they can have sole control over how power is delivered.

Note: Subaru's symmetrical AWD is "Full time AWD with same-length half shafts" if they dump the "full time" part of their definition, a motor up front and a motor out back would still be symmetrical. Running both motors all the time is inefficient, but they can still do it, again, lines of code, they will just have less range than a part-time system will.

Considering the Solterra is both using the "Symmetrical AWD" marketing term and is a variable system, as apposed to a 50:50 system (though that is the default setting) I think they will be fine. Solterra can go to 70F30R or 40F60R depending on conditions/drive mode.

The only time I foresee them moving from a symmetrical system would be in a performance model with multiple rear motors and one front motor.
Food for thought, the BRZ is not symmetrical AWD and people like it just fine *shrug*
A couple of rear motors and one up front could still be symmetrical; but, I think when they actually get away from ICE, they will just slowly drop the "Symmetrical" part of it.

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That'd be more easily said if the Lagacy GT didn't exist at the same time as the Impreza WRX.

Are you talking about modern offerings? There isn't a Legacy GT.
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Old 08-08-2022, 04:04 PM   #7482
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HTCVT didn't hit till 2014MY.
Whoops, 4EAT. Seems like a lifetime ago.
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Old 08-08-2022, 06:08 PM   #7483
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Whoops, 4EAT. Seems like a lifetime ago.
Oh yeah. People asking me questions about older cars I'm trying to get into my archives in my head to remember what cars had what and what features started what year on which model. It's rarely dull here.
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Old 08-08-2022, 06:15 PM   #7484
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That's what Spitz is for. Never swallows.
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Old 08-08-2022, 06:57 PM   #7485
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I don't get it. Both cars grew in size because their segments required it.

The Legacy GT and WRX were for different buyers, at different price points.
How did their segments require it? The brand new FMC WRX is bigger and itís rotting on lots coast to coast with discounts on it just to move it while the entire industry is ADM central, and MSRP at best. Itís main competitor, and there is one, is the GR Corolla. The GR Corolla doesnít even have pricing released yet and itís already a multi year waiting list for most. And itís not bigger, itís a compact car on par with the Bugeye. So itís smaller. Apparently the segment doesnít require it. Itís also a hatch, which Subaru quit making in 2014. First MY of the GRC will be 2023. Last hatch WRX or STI hatch was 2014. So thatís 9 model years Subaru had to get the segment right, and failed. Apparently the segment didnít require it. If it did a larger and lifted WRX would sell like gang busters, and it isnít. Itís looking like the segment didnít require it and few were asking for a larger body cladded sedan.

Weíve seen, in fact, many ďsegmentsĒ where people are tired of how large the vehicles have become. Take the #1 vehicles sold in America, trucks. Over the last 5 years weíve seen a whole different send by mfrís. Many buyers tired of gigantrons as full sized trucks have become too large. Weíve seen the Honda Ridgeline, GMC Twins, Ford Ranger, and now Maverick, a Hyundai compact truck offering and the Frontier continues. So even with trucks, and many of these newer smaller CUVís, the trend is the opposite of what you stated, vehicles getting smaller, not larger.
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Old 08-08-2022, 07:53 PM   #7486
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That's what Spitz is for. Never swallows.
I occasionally refer to him for old color names or specific dimensions. I knew the day would come; but, hate he has stopped.
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Old 08-08-2022, 08:01 PM   #7487
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Being I'm primarily in the used Subaru market, I use his site pretty often.
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Old 08-08-2022, 10:30 PM   #7488
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Being I'm primarily in the used Subaru market, I use his site pretty often.
The good news is pretty much everything on his site was just redundant info from Subaru brochures and service manuals, so the info is still out there. Especially since Subaru has put a lot of that online and easy to access.
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Old 08-08-2022, 10:46 PM   #7489
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The site is still up. When is he taking it down?
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Old 08-09-2022, 12:26 AM   #7490
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The site is still up. When is he taking it down?
I just donít think
Heís updating anymore
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Old 08-09-2022, 10:08 AM   #7491
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
And yet the last gen sold more than ALL of those "better" previous gens COMBINED.



I seriously doubt their 2004 versions would be shaking their heads at anything.
McDonalds sold more Big Macs

does not make it a good hamburger.

appealing to the Camry buyer does not make a good WRX.
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Old 08-09-2022, 12:11 PM   #7492
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dejavu
I swear I read the same argument about the wrx.
Are we coming on the argument loop already?
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Old 08-09-2022, 12:17 PM   #7493
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Oh yeah. People asking me questions about older cars I'm trying to get into my archives in my head to remember what cars had what and what features started what year on which model. It's rarely dull here.
As other said, cars101.com is still my go to for old info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
How did their segments require it? The brand new FMC WRX is bigger and it's rotting on lots coast to coast with discounts on it just to move it while the entire industry is ADM central, and MSRP at best. It's main competitor, and there is one, is the GR Corolla. The GR Corolla doesn't even have pricing released yet and it's already a multi year waiting list for most. And it's not bigger, it's a compact car on par with the Bugeye. So it's smaller. Apparently the segment doesn't require it. It's also a hatch, which Subaru quit making in 2014. First MY of the GRC will be 2023. Last hatch WRX or STI hatch was 2014. So that's 9 model years Subaru had to get the segment right, and failed. Apparently the segment didn't require it. If it did a larger and lifted WRX would sell like gang busters, and it isn't. It's looking like the segment didn't require it and few were asking for a larger body cladded sedan.

We've seen, in fact, many "segments" where people are tired of how large the vehicles have become. Take the #1 vehicles sold in America, trucks. Over the last 5 years we've seen a whole different send by mfr's. Many buyers tired of gigantrons as full sized trucks have become too large. We've seen the Honda Ridgeline, GMC Twins, Ford Ranger, and now Maverick, a Hyundai compact truck offering and the Frontier continues. So even with trucks, and many of these newer smaller CUV's, the trend is the opposite of what you stated, vehicles getting smaller, not larger.
I am not saying the VB's extra 3" over the VA is necessary.

The point was all Subarus have grown based on their segment, especially since the 2000s when they took into consideration US buyer expectations. Since then, new Subarus have outsold their smaller ancestors.

VA was bigger than GD/GE (sedans). VA outsold those previous generations.

2002 GD = 173.4"
2008 GE = 180.3"
2015 VA = 180.9"
2022 VB = 183.8"

GRC is a whole nother topic, with sizing made perfect for you.

OEMs are removing small cars and replacing them with small platform trucks. Yes, some new people want to move up to a truck, at not a gigantic size. That is not reducing full size truck sales.

Ford F150 had been selling 70k trucks per month before the pandemic.
Ford Ranger sells 7k/month.
Ford Maverick sells about 6k per month

Last edited by Snow Drift; 08-09-2022 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 08-09-2022, 12:58 PM   #7494
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I am not saying the VB's extra 3" over the VA is necessary.

The point was all Subarus have grown based on their segment, especially since the 2000s when they took into consideration US buyer expectations. Since then, new Subarus have outsold their smaller ancestors.

VA was bigger than GD/GE (sedans). VA outsold those previous generations.

2002 GD = 173.4"
2008 GE = 180.3"
2015 VA = 180.9"
2022 VB = 183.8"
Wheelbase is what I look at, rather than overall vehicle length, as a hatch will be shorter overall compared to a sedan, while typically sharing the wheelbase. Also, depending on engine layout, the overall vehicle length will be impacted, so when comparing an impreza to a civic by overall length for instance, the impreza has a ton more nose than the civic because of the engine location and frontal crash safety requirements.

Although comparing wheelbase and vehicle length changes over the years can be an indicator of design change intent. For example, wheelbase only went up 1" between the VA & VB but the overall length went up by 3"; they only gained 0.5cuft of cargo room, so I'd wonder if the majority of it is rear bumper protrusion, and possibly front crash safety requirements.

2002 GD = 99.4"
2008 GE = 103.1"
2015 VA = 104.1"
2018 VB = 105.1"

The problem with the impreza growing is that typically as a car model grows, something smaller slots in under it; it happened with the civic (fit), it happened with the corolla (yaris), happened with the Mazda323/Mazda3 (Mazda2), as for domestics... they throw names around like confetti, and bring them back like a necromancer, but a similar practice has occurred.

Can Subaru make & sell a sub-compact that will be ~4k cheaper than the Impreza, while maintaining some semblance of a profit margin? I'm not sure they can if they stick to the "Everything symmetrical AWD (except the BRZ)" mentality.
Can Subaru achieve the Fuel economy required with the powertrains they currently have? I highly doubt it.
Is there demand for a sub-compact AWD vehicle? Not certain, I'd consider a hot-hatch or wagon version of one, like many enthusiasts would (at least the hatch), but not the vanilla variant, or a hot sedan (some would though), I'm painfully picky when it comes to vehicles, and my tastes are out there (fast wagons for instance).
I've always tried to buy the smallest vehicle that suits my needs while satisfying as many of my wants as possible, and I realize my particular wants do not align with the general public, hence all of the trucks with pristine beds, Jeeps that never go offroad, & single people with CUVs & SUVs.
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Old 08-09-2022, 01:02 PM   #7495
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Wheelbase is what I look at, rather than overall vehicle length, as a hatch will be shorter overall compared to a sedan, while typically sharing the wheelbase. Also, depending on engine layout, the overall vehicle length will be impacted, so when comparing an impreza to a civic by overall length for instance, the impreza has a ton more nose than the civic because of the engine location and frontal crash safety requirements.

Although comparing wheelbase and vehicle length changes over the years can be an indicator of design change intent. For example, wheelbase only went up 1" between the VA & VB but the overall length went up by 3"; they only gained 0.5cuft of cargo room, so I'd wonder if the majority of it is rear bumper protrusion, and possibly front crash safety requirements.

2002 GD = 99.4"
2008 GE = 103.1"
2015 VA = 104.1"
2018 VB = 105.1"

The problem with the impreza growing is that typically as a car model grows, something smaller slots in under it; it happened with the civic (fit), it happened with the corolla (yaris), happened with the Mazda323/Mazda3 (Mazda2), as for domestics... they throw names around like confetti, and bring them back like a necromancer, but a similar practice has occurred.

Can Subaru make & sell a sub-compact that will be ~4k cheaper than the Impreza, while maintaining some semblance of a profit margin? I'm not sure they can if they stick to the "Everything symmetrical AWD (except the BRZ)" mentality.
Can Subaru achieve the Fuel economy required with the powertrains they currently have? I highly doubt it.
Is there demand for a sub-compact AWD vehicle? Not certain, I'd consider a hot-hatch or wagon version of one, like many enthusiasts would (at least the hatch), but not the vanilla variant, or a hot sedan (some would though), I'm painfully picky when it comes to vehicles, and my tastes are out there (fast wagons for instance).
I've always tried to buy the smallest vehicle that suits my needs while satisfying as many of my wants as possible, and I realize my particular wants do not align with the general public, hence all of the trucks with pristine beds, Jeeps that never go offroad, & single people with CUVs & SUVs.
Honda USA doesn't sell the Fit anymore, and Toyota USA killed the Yaris, for a reason. There's barely a market for the Impreza and you want them to offer a Stella.
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Old 08-09-2022, 01:23 PM   #7496
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We've seen, in fact, many "segments" where people are tired of how large the vehicles have become. Take the #1 vehicles sold in America, trucks. Over the last 5 years we've seen a whole different send by mfr's. Many buyers tired of gigantrons as full sized trucks have become too large. We've seen the Honda Ridgeline, GMC Twins, Ford Ranger, and now Maverick, a Hyundai compact truck offering and the Frontier continues. So even with trucks, and many of these newer smaller CUV's, the trend is the opposite of what you stated, vehicles getting smaller, not larger.
Its not the size factor dictating these "smaller trucks", its cost and demographics. As they got bigger, so did the price tag. The smaller versions attempt at minimally lowering that price point back to what made trucks sell to begin with. The gigantrons aren't exactly shrinking in sales, its more the smaller trucks/CUVs are reaching different audiences that the standard pickup truck doesn't really cater to. ie. city/burbs with weekend warrior "active" lifestyles.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:07 PM   #7497
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I'd argue the crossover craze is what's killing subcompact cars, not midsize sedans. It's not necessarily the size of the cars that bother consumers, it's their distance from the ground.

If Subaru really wanted to benefit from their partnership they'd rebadge the Yaris cross and import that. It would fit nicely under the Crosstrek. Make it look like that forestery looking viziv future concept from years ago. Bring it over as a hybrid and doubly benefit from the fuel economy.

But on the note of crossovers and the WRX, it's hilarious to me that Subaru put cladding on it instead of putting its engine in the Crosstrek. Talk about following market trends and appealing to hatchback buyers who want a shorter vehicle. 176 inches isn't quite as small as the original WRX but it's a lot closer than 183.

I'm not sure I'd buy it, but I'd sooner consider lowering a turbo Crosstrek than buying a Crosstrek sedan.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:43 PM   #7498
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Hyundai offered the Kona N and afaik it sells ok for well over MSRP. An AWD Subaru version could only do better. But Subaru already considered and passed on it.
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:44 PM   #7499
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yeah, a compact car has the smallest margins and also is the least desirable type on lots.

consider as well that it is FAR cheaper for a manufacturer to meet the regulations that classify a vehicle as a truck (so as to have less stringent CAFE regulations) than it is to sell a car that complies with higher CAFE expectations.

CAFE distinction between cars and trucks is being made a mockery by manufacturers. if the government would grow a pair and get rid of the distinction between cars/trucks for fuel economy ratings, magically, small cars would be pushed by manufacturers again, even considering they are low margin, and low volume, they'd have no choice but to do it so as to meet regulations.
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Old 08-09-2022, 03:01 PM   #7500
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Small cars also have taken a big hit due to the pandemic. Manufacturers only have so many chips/supplies and allocated those towards the higher profit vehicles.

Can't blame them, it's a business and they have to maximize profits or lose their jobs.

And yes, CAFE is way to easy to skirt around.
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