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Old 07-03-2016, 06:18 PM   #1
rextech255
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Default P0301, P0303, P0016, At a total loss.

Hello all,

I own a 2007 STi with 99,xxx miles. Said vehicle developed a misfire when I was driving home for lunch from work one day. I didn't notice anything while driving, but as soon as I parked along the sidewalk, it felt like I was getting a ride from shakira's hips. I immediately unplugged both of the coil packs on the passenger side (cyl 1 and 3), and noticed no difference in the way the engine was running. I then read the codes and to none of my surprise was P0301 (cyl 1 miss), P0303 (cyl 3 miss), and P0016 (Crankshaft Position - Camshaft Position Correlation).

I then replaced the crank sensor, no avail. Then the camshaft position sensor on the passenger side, no dice, still missing on both of the cylinders.

I then went to the basics - air, fuel, ignition, timing, and compression. I removed the spark plugs, replaced them, and tested for spark. While rested on the engine, spark jumped clearly across the gap. Air wouldn't be an issue for just one bank (even if the TGV's failed closed, there's still a pathway for air to flow past them). I can smell a buttload of unburnt fuel in the exhaust, so I'm I don't think fuel is the issue either. Then, I reluctantly started removing things to get the timing belt covers off, figuring maybe both cams on that side skipped a few teeth of timing. I got in there, and BAM. Nothing. Perfect timing.

So, basically I can't think of anything else that I could have checked. Maybe the wiring going to/from the crank or cam sensor? I'd assume it'd be more likely to have an issue with the cam sensor on that bank since it's only the passenger bank having the issue.

Is there anyone who can give me some fresh ideas, or someone who's seen something like this before who can shed some light on a likely cause? The ol' girl has never really given me problems like this in the last 40k that I've owned her, and I've taken very good car of her maintenance wise.

Thanks,

A guy who just wants to drive his STi again
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Old 07-04-2016, 10:44 AM   #2
Samurai Jack
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The P030X codes can be a long list of potential issues. As with many codes, they just point you in a general direction of the issue, NEVER to the exact issue

With that said, people always seem to ignore a very simple possibility: fuel

Consider these possibilities:
- Where do you normally get fuel?
- Have you changed gas stations?
- How low was your fuel tank when this issue started?
- Have you tried using a quality fuel cleaner?
- When was the last time you changed your fuel filter?

... and this one:
- Have you checked the connections on the coil packs when you plug them in to be sure they are secure?

More than once I've tracked this issue down to some type of fuel issue, but also to bad connections on the coil packs ( the little finger another coil pack that the connector locks on to was broken )
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:13 AM   #3
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Samurai is right. There are lots of things that can cause a misfire and it can be a frustrating chase. For instance; my 04 wagon wouldn't take a lightweight flywheel. Not even the ACT streetlight. It was because after 150k, the valve lash was out of spec, and the slight change of the flywheel in addition was enough to trigger misfires. Took a lot of figuring out on that one.

But usually you start with the easier stuff of course.. And work the case one step at a time.

Here's one thing you should try so we can mark it off the list. Swap sides on your coils to eliminate the possibility they (or one of them) are the problem.

Clean your MAF (using MAF cleaner only).

Follow pre-turbo and post-turbo airways (inlet). Stock inlets seem to be a problem on aging engines where they clamp to the turbo. They rip right at the clamp and can be very hard to spot.

Reset ECU. Misfires can take between 50-100 miles (varies) for the computer to register because it's a matter of exceeding threshold over a period of time that sets off the code. In case you didn't already know that.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:13 AM   #4
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A couple guy's on the legacyGT forum have found that coil connectors needed to be cleaned or adjusted so they fit tighter. May be check the slide fit on contacts to make sure they are tight.

Kind of what Samurai Jack said.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:15 AM   #5
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Hey.. By the way, post up your mods. If your car is stock or not often times lends itself to being something routine or aging, vs perhaps being related to a modded situation.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
Clean your MAF (using MAF cleaner only).
Make sure you clean your MAF correctly.
- Where is your MAF? It is inside your air box cover
- You have to remove your MAF from the air box cover to clean it ( 2 screws )
- After removal, you will see a long tube with an open circle on the end, and an open box attached to the tube that has a wire with a "blob" on the end. This is NOT the MAF. It is the Air Temp Sensor.

- the MAF itself is two small wires up inside that tube.

There are posts on " How to Clean Your MAF " if you want more specific directions.

Clean the MAF and the Air Temp Sensor.
Make sure you let them dry before re-installing
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Old 07-08-2016, 03:23 AM   #7
rextech255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
The P030X codes can be a long list of potential issues. As with many codes, they just point you in a general direction of the issue, NEVER to the exact issue

With that said, people always seem to ignore a very simple possibility: fuel

Consider these possibilities:
- Where do you normally get fuel?
- Have you changed gas stations?
- How low was your fuel tank when this issue started?
- Have you tried using a quality fuel cleaner?
- When was the last time you changed your fuel filter?

... and this one:
- Have you checked the connections on the coil packs when you plug them in to be sure they are secure?

More than once I've tracked this issue down to some type of fuel issue, but also to bad connections on the coil packs ( the little finger another coil pack that the connector locks on to was broken )
Thank you for your quick input, but i've already verified i'm getting spark at both dead cylinders' plugs, so ignition is not an issue.

I very obviously smell tons of extra fuel in the exhaust, but even if it were a fuel issue, it wouldn't have anything to do with things upstream of the fuel rail considering the two driver's side cylinders are firing just fine. Example: if the fuel filter were clogged, it would affect all four cylinders not just two. Same with gasoline quality. The only fuel related reason I could get behind would be a block in the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the driver's side cylinders (they get fed first, then the fuel runs under the intake manifold toward the passenger side cylinders). If a block were somewhere after the driver's side cylinders (2 and 4), it would starve both passenger side ones. The only reason I haven't looked too much into that is because obvious amounts of unburnt fuel can be smelled in the exhaust while it's running.
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Old 07-08-2016, 03:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
Samurai is right. There are lots of things that can cause a misfire and it can be a frustrating chase. For instance; my 04 wagon wouldn't take a lightweight flywheel. Not even the ACT streetlight. It was because after 150k, the valve lash was out of spec, and the slight change of the flywheel in addition was enough to trigger misfires. Took a lot of figuring out on that one.

But usually you start with the easier stuff of course.. And work the case one step at a time.

Here's one thing you should try so we can mark it off the list. Swap sides on your coils to eliminate the possibility they (or one of them) are the problem.

Clean your MAF (using MAF cleaner only).

Follow pre-turbo and post-turbo airways (inlet). Stock inlets seem to be a problem on aging engines where they clamp to the turbo. They rip right at the clamp and can be very hard to spot.

Reset ECU. Misfires can take between 50-100 miles (varies) for the computer to register because it's a matter of exceeding threshold over a period of time that sets off the code. In case you didn't already know that.
The coils definitely are not the issue, I pulled them and the plugs out, put the plugs back in the coils, cranked the car, and saw spark arcing across both plugs for the dead cylinders. There is definitely good ignition occuring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
A couple guy's on the legacyGT forum have found that coil connectors needed to be cleaned or adjusted so they fit tighter. May be check the slide fit on contacts to make sure they are tight.

Kind of what Samurai Jack said.
Thank you, but ignition is definitely occuring correctly, tested and verified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
Hey.. By the way, post up your mods. If your car is stock or not often times lends itself to being something routine or aging, vs perhaps being related to a modded situation.
My apologies, I should have done that from the start. She's on a 92oct stage 2 map from an accessport, catted maddad downpipe, catless invidia catback, spt intake, large mishimoto radiator/fans, and that's it. All stock otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
Make sure you clean your MAF correctly.
- Where is your MAF? It is inside your air box cover
- You have to remove your MAF from the air box cover to clean it ( 2 screws )
- After removal, you will see a long tube with an open circle on the end, and an open box attached to the tube that has a wire with a "blob" on the end. This is NOT the MAF. It is the Air Temp Sensor.

- the MAF itself is two small wires up inside that tube.

There are posts on " How to Clean Your MAF " if you want more specific directions.

Clean the MAF and the Air Temp Sensor.
Make sure you let them dry before re-installing
Thank you for that suggestion, but if the MAF were causing my issue, it would once again be affecting all cylinders, not just 1 & 3. I've confirmed 2 & 4 are perfectly fine while 1 & 3 are permanently dead. 1 & 3 are not even partially firing, or every once in a while firing. They are entirely dead.


I hope I'm not seeming like I'm just throwing all of your suggestions out the window, but like I said if it were a MAF problem, or a gasoline quality problem, or a fuel filter flow problem, it would be affecting all cylinders not just two. The MAF sensor gives the ECU information for airflow mass coming into all cylinders, bad gas wouldn't magically work in two cylinders but not the others, and if the fuel filter were clogged zero cylinders would get fuel since it's upstream of all the cylinders.
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Old 07-08-2016, 01:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rextech255 View Post
I hope I'm not seeming like I'm just throwing all of your suggestions out the window, but like I said if it were a MAF problem, or a gasoline quality problem, or a fuel filter flow problem, it would be affecting all cylinders not just two. The MAF sensor gives the ECU information for airflow mass coming into all cylinders, bad gas wouldn't magically work in two cylinders but not the others, and if the fuel filter were clogged zero cylinders would get fuel since it's upstream of all the cylinders.
I can tell you from personal experience you are wrong.
It seems logical that what you say would be true, but it is not.

Just a couple of example of possibilities:
- Crud from the fuel could have made it's way to an injector causing a disruption in fuel flow
- Poor readings from the MAF can give varying results
- Deterioration of the fuel filter can cause disruption to the injectors
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Old 07-08-2016, 04:48 PM   #10
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Default P0301, P0303, P0016, At a total loss.

Well then you've got a leak. If you smell tons of fuel, and have great spark, then you've got a leak in the lines. There are rubber hoses connecting the fuel rails to the fuel line. They are known failures with aged cars. The fuel pressure is lost on this side. Makes total sense that it's leaking out. Being that it's on top of the head, it just leaks on to the head, puddles there out of sight, and eventually evaporates from engine heat. Misfire due to very little fuel making it into the cylinders. The rubber lines are hard to get to because they are under the manifold. But it's not that hard to pull the whole manifold. You can tuck some paper towels under there and prime your pump to verify. Betcha that's it.
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:23 PM   #11
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What were you compression readings hot?
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Old 07-08-2016, 08:57 PM   #12
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Before you do the following (below), perform the exact procedures in the FSM for P0016 as this is the cause of the other two DTCs. You will probably resolve the issue.

The misfiring is due to the cam/crank correlation being off. You verified the timing belt hadn't skipped a tooth, you replaced one cam sensor and the crank sensor. Verify the crank wheel has no physical damage to the teeth (I think it might!) - if so, it's time to replace the other cam sensor, in my opinion.

Through some work with aftermarket engine management on these cars, I've found the cam sensors are primarily for AVCS control. The dual-output crank sensor (coupled with accurate timing belt install) take care of all spark-relating timing.
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Old 07-10-2016, 02:02 AM   #13
rextech255
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Default P0301, P0303, P0016, At a total loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
I can tell you from personal experience you are wrong.

It seems logical that what you say would be true, but it is not.



Just a couple of example of possibilities:

- Crud from the fuel could have made it's way to an injector causing a disruption in fuel flow

- Poor readings from the MAF can give varying results

- Deterioration of the fuel filter can cause disruption to the injectors

I believe you, and I'm willing to try those out after I check to make sure the cam/crank wheels aren't damaged first. At least you know where I'm coming from using logic. I guess it's not always the best way of diagnosing sometimes, but it's what I turn to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
Well then you've got a leak. If you smell tons of fuel, and have great spark, then you've got a leak in the lines. There are rubber hoses connecting the fuel rails to the fuel line. They are known failures with aged cars. The fuel pressure is lost on this side. Makes total sense that it's leaking out. Being that it's on top of the head, it just leaks on to the head, puddles there out of sight, and eventually evaporates from engine heat. Misfire due to very little fuel making it into the cylinders. The rubber lines are hard to get to because they are under the manifold. But it's not that hard to pull the whole manifold. You can tuck some paper towels under there and prime your pump to verify. Betcha that's it.

Yeah, I know what you're saying I had to fix that issue on my 03 WRX years ago. However, what I meant by me smelling fuel was, I can smell a lot of unburnt fuel coming out of the exhaust. Not from the engine bay, so that's not the case here. I smell no fuel from the engine bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omgawg View Post
What were you compression readings hot?

I don't know, I'll have to go borrow a compression gauge from an auto store nearby. I replaced the piston rings along with head gaskets, all other gaskets, and clutch at 64k though (with the original owner was a jackass and beat it to death).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
Before you do the following (below), perform the exact procedures in the FSM for P0016 as this is the cause of the other two DTCs. You will probably resolve the issue.

The misfiring is due to the cam/crank correlation being off. You verified the timing belt hadn't skipped a tooth, you replaced one cam sensor and the crank sensor. Verify the crank wheel has no physical damage to the teeth (I think it might!) - if so, it's time to replace the other cam sensor, in my opinion.

Through some work with aftermarket engine management on these cars, I've found the cam sensors are primarily for AVCS control. The dual-output crank sensor (coupled with accurate timing belt install) take care of all spark-relating timing.

Thank you for this. When I read it, it reminded me of something I had totally forgotten about when I originally replaced the crank sensor in the Auto Zone parking lot lol. I remember noticing a small nick/gouge at the bottom end of the cylindrical portion of the sensor. I'm willing to bet that the crank wheel's teeth got damaged somehow. But that's the question.. What could even damage them? Oh well, I'll be out tomorrow starting with the FSM steps for P0016 and then looking at the crank wheel.
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Old 07-10-2016, 04:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rextech255 View Post
I'm willing to bet that the crank wheel's teeth got damaged somehow. But that's the question.. What could even damage them? Oh well, I'll be out tomorrow starting with the FSM steps for P0016 and then looking at the crank wheel.
What could cause the damage is a trickier question with that... but I'm really curious to hear what you find, now!
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:26 AM   #15
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Default Update

Ok, so I've finally put some time in trying to figure out what's going on, here's an update:

- I checked the crank wheel, and all the teeth are there and in great condition.

- I reverified timing once the center timing cover was off, it's perfect.

- I realized the nick I remembered in the cam sensor was just a very small scratch. I pulled the new one (which has been in while the engine was turning), and it does not have the same scratch. This isn't the issue.

- I decided to check out the AVCS solenoid on the passenger side where the cylinders are dead. I took off the oil feed line to find the filter inside broken in half, crooked, and missing a portion of the plastic frame of the filter. I didn't do this removing it, it like that when I took the banjo bolt off. I then removed the inner portion of the solenoid from its housing, and found the piece inside one of the ports. I removed the piece and the filter assembly entirely and reinstalled the AVCS solenoid assembly. Below I've linked pictures of what I found.

http://i.imgur.com/4ulZYzD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dseXzXH.jpg



*when I removed the crank pulley, I noticed I could no longer turn the engine over by hand for the entire cycle.. I don't know why, but it'd turn clockwise for a while and then stop. Then I'd go back counterclockwise , then it'd stop again. This is definitely not just compression building, I know what that feels like. This is a hard stop. I really wanted to see if the AVCS oil inlet filter being cocked sideways/the piece of plastic being in the solenoid was causing the misfire, but I'm too scared to crank it with the hard resistance I'm feeling when hand cranking.


This is now my primary worry. If the timing is perfect (I've done more timing belt jobs than I can count, so I know how it's supposed to be lined up), then what could be causing this resistance? Anyone? I'm at another loss again. I need to figure this out before I can try to crank it and continue diagnosis of the dead cylinders.

Thanks again

G
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:15 AM   #16
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Default P0301, P0303, P0016, At a total loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rextech255 View Post
what could be causing this resistance?
forgetting it's still in gear is the first thing I check, esp if your timing is dead on
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie_ View Post
forgetting it's still in gear is the first thing I check

I wish it were that to be completely honest. I checked, it's in neutral.
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Old 08-04-2016, 12:18 AM   #18
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Update:

I'll be taking the passenger head off this Saturday to find out what's going on.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:19 AM   #19
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Cyl 1 and 3 are on the drivers side. Cyl 1 is closest to the firewall.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ~snowman~ View Post
Cyl 1 and 3 are on the drivers side. Cyl 1 is closest to the firewall.
You have it so very backwards.
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~snowman~ View Post
Cyl 1 and 3 are on the drivers side. Cyl 1 is closest to the firewall.

I can assure you it's set up like this


Drivers side--------------passengers side
-------------front of car------------------

-------#2-----------------------#1-------

-------#4-----------------------#3-------
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Old 08-08-2016, 09:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rextech255 View Post
I can assure you it's set up like this


Drivers side--------------passengers side
-------------front of car------------------

-------#2-----------------------#1-------

-------#4-----------------------#3-------
I can assure you that you are correct.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:20 PM   #23
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Default Old But I have this same problem, update?

Did you get this resolved?

I just moved back from Germany with my 2007 STI and my car started doing this same thing.

50k miles, 10k on the engine. Stage 2+. cat back invidia exhaust. Intercooler. I didnt mod it and the guy the did told a shop to "make it fast." It was tuned in Colorado at 6000 ft altitude in around 2010. I just got back to the States where I can get parts without waiting 2 weeks and I am trying my best to get this taken care of myself, but its a little disheartening to see that this problem kicked some experienced guys asses.

I have changed my plugs (cyl 1 and 3 looked pretty beat up) I have coils coming in the mail tomorrow along with a camshaft positioning sensor. Just changed the oil.

The problem presented in the middle of a tank of gas, not driving it hard. I don't have my tools yet so I am hesitant to dig into the timing because I'll have to buy some things I already have. I want to get it tuned to this altitude but its running so badly that I can't even do that yet.

Honestly, not good at this yet, but I have 2 Subarus now and I'm going to work on them myself. Just wish I had a little easier problem to get started on.

Same EXACT symtoms rextech255 describes in his posts. Heavy fuel smell from the exhaust. Same codes. Runs ok at low RPMs on the road but heavy acceleration or idle are really rough. I'm going to check the AVCS tomorrow along with changing the coils and the camshaft positioning sensor if I can find the bastard.

Last thing, after I replaced the plugs, it started and ran smooth for 30 seconds to a minute and then went back to sounding like Eleanor in Gone in 60 Seconds after Nicholas Cage jumped it...which made me want to cry.

Really appreciate some input.

Zech

Last edited by zech.flaugh; 08-25-2016 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Bad at reading dates on posts
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:30 PM   #24
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OK, I finally got the positioning sensor in the mail today. Had a lot of other stuff going on but I was able to get it put in this evening and after a short test drive, I think I'm good. I have some other issues I'm still dealing with but the rough Idle and total loss of power at any boost level is gone.

rextech255, is it possible that you got a second bad positioning sensor or did you say you switched your sensors from bank 1 to 2 and had the same code?

I'm going to drive it some more tomorrow morning and I will update, but I think I solved that problem for me.

I am still working on some chronic issues which I hope are stemming from the high altitude tune, but I was hitting 20 PSI boost on my little test drive and I couldn't get any before the sensor change.

Hopefully it stays fixed and I'm not feeling a placebo that is going to go away tomorrow.

Good luck with yours and keep us informed.

Zech
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Old 08-27-2016, 03:47 PM   #25
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Black

Angry Sad Update

Nope. Cyl 3, 1 misfire codes still coming up. P0016 is not. I think I am dealing with bigger Issues and I am not sure if I am capable of troubleshooting them all.

I did a quick video of how it's Idling now and what it does after you rev it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK1hXmRgBos
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