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Old 01-19-2020, 12:03 PM   #1
JoeRice
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Default Not hitting fuel targets with Access Tuner Map

Issues with AFR jumping up at beginning of pull and decreasing too slowly to hit targets. I increased the Primary Open Loop Fueling Ramping Adder from .2 to .5 for all RPMs and it made no difference. AFR is still staying too high below 6k rpm. Appears to be plenty of injector time left, just not sure how to tell the software to hurry the heck up with dumping fuel.

https://datazap.me/u/joerice/log-157...&data=3-5-7-27

Looking for help from others with more Access Tuner experience than my weekend tuner self


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Old 01-19-2020, 12:27 PM   #2
adam99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRice View Post
Issues with AFR jumping up at beginning of pull and decreasing too slowly to hit targets. I increased the Primary Open Loop Fueling Ramping Adder from .2 to .5 for all RPMs and it made no difference. AFR is still staying too high below 6k rpm. Appears to be plenty of injector time left, just not sure how to tell the software to hurry the heck up with dumping fuel.

https://datazap.me/u/joerice/log-157...&data=3-5-7-27

Looking for help from others with more Access Tuner experience than my weekend tuner self


Joe
Your afr corrections shoot up to about 35% before it switches to open loop. Check for a pre turbo leak. I had a MASSIVE leak at my turbo inlet and even being in FTCL the corrections(35ish%) were still were not enough to hit target afrs. Also keep in mind, if you still have the stock cat in, I believe the afr sensor reads slightly rich. Check for leaks, remove some fuel and try again
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:43 PM   #3
tegxsi
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What's going on here? lol
What are your mods?
You're really out of injector...40% is when things get weird.

Is this E30, non-flexfuel?
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Old 01-19-2020, 02:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRice View Post
I increased the Primary Open Loop Fueling Ramping Adder from .2 to .5 for all RPMs and it made no difference.
Before you start browsing for a table in the tune that you think will help the slow targeting, you should probably first address why your engine is adding 30% correction while in closed loop. Did you pick up on the part in the log that at WOT and with 22psi of boost, your AFR is 13.54? You are not far from melting engine parts. Questions that immediately come to mind are:

- What mods to you have?
- What intake do you have?
- If intake isn't stock, did you calibrate the MAF voltage table?
- Have you ever had a self-tune that didn't have huge AFR corrections?
- What base tune did you start with?
- Do you have a spare engine laying around while you teach yourself how to tune a direct-injected, turbocharged engine?
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Old 01-19-2020, 06:23 PM   #5
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No Cats
E30 fuel without kit is why it shows a large correction, I just let the CL handle it, yes I know I will get some negative opinions on that, but that is what the fuel corrections are for
Stock Intake
Map based on a Cobb Stage 2 HWG, no timing adjustments just boost
Agree on the too high AFR, started when I increased boost above stage 2
No spare engines but looking at hard at a short block

Surprised 40% is considered high for injectors. Was not expecting that comment. Do most people upgrade the DIT injectors to get of 300whp?

Thank you for the replies, I do appreciate the advice, even the snarky replies
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Old 01-19-2020, 06:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRice View Post
No Cats
E30 fuel without kit is why it shows a large correction, I just let the CL handle it, yes I know I will get some negative opinions on that, but that is what the fuel corrections are for
Stock Intake
Map based on a Cobb Stage 2 HWG, no timing adjustments just boost
Agree on the too high AFR, started when I increased boost above stage 2
No spare engines but looking at hard at a short block

Surprised 40% is considered high for injectors. Was not expecting that comment. Do most people upgrade the DIT injectors to get of 300whp?

Thank you for the replies, I do appreciate the advice, even the snarky replies
You did adjust the injector fuel trims for the ethanol right?? If not that explains the not hitting target afr. As far as the duty cycle, you're limited to the intake stroke and part of compression stroke. If your eoi is to close to spark timing you get poor combustion(misfires) and if you spray to early you waste fuel out of the exhaust. It is a balancing act but you can lean that afr out alot in the top end.

(if you didn't globally change fuel trims for ethanol read this)
https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wik...ide+Supplement

Fuel multipliers by ethanol content
https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wik...l+Tuning+Guide

Last edited by adam99; 01-19-2020 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:48 PM   #7
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Well, OP, your tolerance of the snarky replies is appreciated. They (the replies) really could be a lot worse. Please read the links that adam99 supplied. You are misunderstanding the 35-40% comments. The corrections you are seeing are not injector size related, they are pressure related. The correction will go back to "normal" when you set the Global Fueling adjustment correctly. DFI injectors are no where close to being undersized when they operate at the proper pressure for the fuel/flexfuel being used since they operate at such high pressures compared to port injectors. That is what the Global Fueling adjustment is for. Also, I think most E30 tunes are full-time closed loop. Your tune switches to open loop at 3300 rpm. Cobb OTS tunes are NOT full-time closed loop. I think the overly rich Cobb OTS open-loop fueling saved your engine. That is in all seriousness, no snarkiness intended.
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:11 AM   #8
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Adam99, thanks for the links, very helpful for injector adjustments...which I had not made.

yellowblur, thanks again. I followed the steps for full time closed loop and knocked the boost down a couple of pounds at peak to ask a bit less of the injectors.

Will stare at the the afr gauge closely on the way to work tomorrow
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:09 AM   #9
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Also please please please remove some fuel. With the fueling adjustments and FTCL you will be hitting target afr. e30 tune targeting in the 9s and you will 100% get injection misfires.\
And if you have any questions at all just pm me, would be happy to help
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:34 AM   #10
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Thanks adam99, appreciate that offer, I'll keep it in mind if I come across any issues with the CL tune. Would be nice to have someone to converse with as I learn this rather than annoying the whole forum.

I set the AFRs to 10.5 while I was setting up the full time CL last night which I believe is right ratio for turbo engines. The very low target AFRs I had in open loop were due to my misunderstanding of how to force the system to add more fuel to meet my desired 10.5, I didn't actually want 9s. Learning process... I wish Access Tuner / Cobb had a better workflow description.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:34 AM   #11
tegxsi
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Direct injection engines do not need to be so rich. Direct injection has a very strong cooling effect. Some factory tuned cars run low 14AFR at WOT then taper down to a richer target dictated by engine load and/or EGT modeling. Of course, I'm not telling to tune a Subaru this way...lol

This a personal preference...
What I like to do on 91 octane is target 11.4AFR and have it taper down to 10.8AFR by 5200RPM.
With E30 you can run leaner target because of the cooling effect ethanol has. I aim for 11.4AFR. You should still have enough fueling headroom at higher revs.

Of course you should tune your ignition timing and boost curve accordingly. Every car is different so do what you have to do to make it safe. I'm no stranger to doing E30 mixes but I highly suggest going flexfuel if you can.

The less ghetto way to tune for E30 mix is to re-scale your MAF curve.

Last edited by tegxsi; 01-20-2020 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:57 PM   #12
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What he said^ I believe it is a few DI Volkswagens that run stoich under wot and use egts to add in fuel. Ahhhh it must be nice to have such an advanced ecu. But yeah id command a 11.2 as a starting point until boost and timing are where you want.
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:58 PM   #13
tegxsi
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Originally Posted by adam99 View Post
What he said^ I believe it is a few DI Volkswagens that run stoich under wot and use egts to add in fuel. Ahhhh it must be nice to have such an advanced ecu. But yeah id command a 11.2 as a starting point until boost and timing are where you want.
Yeah, I've datalogged an Audi A5. WOT AFR is low 14 with ignition timing at 0. Depending on gear, it will richen up at around 4500RPM then start to advance ignition timing. It was knock free no matter how I beat on the car lol. The knock detection is more advanced in these cars (Bosch ECU) and can pull timing from individual cylinders.

I know BMWs do the same. I've also seen this in the 2.0L turbo engines in Lexus.
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Old 01-20-2020, 06:40 PM   #14
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Thanks guys, I'll back the fueling down a bit more. I'll also back the turbo down a bit to lower the temps and try adjusting the ignition timing to make up for it once I get the fuel and boost stable with no knock. Will take a couple of weeks, I only do data runs on weekends in a safe local.

Tegxsi, I haven't bought a flex fuel kit yet because I'm not sure if that is the final solution I want as these engines don't like anything greater than E30. I think I would prefer an AEM Meth system which isn't much more expensive. I can get straight meth locally, but I'm not sure how I would even go about tuning that in closed loop, afr to 8 or 9?....future adventure, perhaps I'll ask the wife for that for my bday.

Side note, no pulls, but car drives great on new CL tune, I don't have the annoying OL transition anymore that I used to think was a cam turnover point and afrs respond as expected under throttle. I'll post a pull to this thread when I have it.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by JoeRice View Post
Thanks guys, I'll back the fueling down a bit more. I'll also back the turbo down a bit to lower the temps and try adjusting the ignition timing to make up for it once I get the fuel and boost stable with no knock. Will take a couple of weeks, I only do data runs on weekends in a safe local.

Tegxsi, I haven't bought a flex fuel kit yet because I'm not sure if that is the final solution I want as these engines don't like anything greater than E30. I think I would prefer an AEM Meth system which isn't much more expensive. I can get straight meth locally, but I'm not sure how I would even go about tuning that in closed loop, afr to 8 or 9?....future adventure, perhaps I'll ask the wife for that for my bday.

Side note, no pulls, but car drives great on new CL tune, I don't have the annoying OL transition anymore that I used to think was a cam turnover point and afrs respond as expected under throttle. I'll post a pull to this thread when I have it.
Glad to hear. Flex Fuel>meth everytime, only main reason id ever go with meth is if I didn't have ethanol near me. Get a dw300 or aem lpfp to handle the ethanol. What year is your car? If 2017 or newer you have a gen3 hpfp which can handle higher ethanol concentrations so you wont have to worry about that. If you have an 2015 or early 2016 just keep the blend around e50ish.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:22 AM   #16
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Adam99, the car is a 2019. I was not aware of the hpfp change, if a new lpfp and ethanol kit is truly all that I need for e50+ then I might be willing to give up the meth dreams.

I know ethanol has better cooling properties than gas, but it seems like spraying meth into the TB to AFRs lower than what is normally run with e85 would provide more cooling and therefore be safer. Seems most of the DIT failures are heat related ring land deaths.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam99 View Post
If 2017 or newer you have a gen3 hpfp which can handle higher ethanol concentrations so you wont have to worry about that. If you have an 2015 or early 2016 just keep the blend around e50ish.
Interesting. I was not aware of this.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:52 PM   #18
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Interesting. I was not aware of this.
Clark Turner said it. I always wondered how him and bren had cars on straight e85 exclusively for long periods of time with no problems.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:55 PM   #19
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Adam99, the car is a 2019. I was not aware of the hpfp change, if a new lpfp and ethanol kit is truly all that I need for e50+ then I might be willing to give up the meth dreams.

I know ethanol has better cooling properties than gas, but it seems like spraying meth into the TB to AFRs lower than what is normally run with e85 would provide more cooling and therefore be safer. Seems most of the DIT failures are heat related ring land deaths.
Yeah just get an upgraded lpfp, flex fuel and you should be good.
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Old 01-21-2020, 02:16 PM   #20
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you should also be able to use an innovate 3904 ethanol gauge to tune for E30. It has a 0-5V output for ethanol from 0%-100%. Haven't tried tuning with it, but I do run the gauge on an E30 tune to check my mix. Would just have to tie it in to the AP.
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