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Old 05-27-2006, 07:20 PM   #26
jays05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STimo
Has anybody else heard of the problem that 2LTL2L8 was referring to about the maf sensor being made from metal and heat soaking horribly causing timing to be pulled? This has got me worried a bit.
I'm running the Perrin 35R kit and see the same thing, but I'm not sure if it is because of the metal maf housing heat-soaking, or if it's because the air under the hood is just freakin hot. The other night at the dragstrip my air inlet temps were 153f at the starting line. I had a whopping 6 degrees of timing in 1st gear and the low timing made my egt's jump. I had made another pass about 20 minutes earlier so the car was still warm, but I didn't drop the hood till there were 2 cars in line in front of me in the staging lanes, and I've already wrapped my uppipe, downpipe, turbo, ic coldside tube, coolant tank, and the coolant lines that snake around the intake. I'll try wrapping my MAF housing with thermo-tec thermal blanket and report back.
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Last edited by jays05; 05-27-2006 at 07:23 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-27-2006, 07:24 PM   #27
STimo
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I'm suprised i have never found anybody talking about this before. So i'm wondering how much wrapping everything woud help? The only thing is i hate the way the wrapping looks, but if it helps out that much i might consider it. Please write back Jays05 after you have tried this and please let me know if you noticed any difference.
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Old 05-27-2006, 07:45 PM   #28
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This makes sense if you think about it. The Perrin intake and MAF is 100% under the hood so initial heatsoaking doesn't surprise me at all. In my case, it isn't a factor since I don't drag.

I assume this would be a problem for any system (including bone stock) where the MAF and intake are totally underhood. I'll ask PDXTuning about this and see what they have to say.
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Old 05-27-2006, 07:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster
This makes sense if you think about it. The Perrin intake and MAF is 100% under the hood so initial heatsoaking doesn't surprise me at all. In my case, it isn't a factor since I don't drag.

I assume this would be a problem for any system (including bone stock) where the MAF and intake are totally underhood. I'll ask PDXTuning about this and see what they have to say.
Thats why i decided to go with the UR rotated.....cant beat the fit & finish for the money
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Old 05-27-2006, 09:58 PM   #30
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Yeah it totally makes sense it's just that i have NEVER heard about this until now. I'm hoping that it's not as drastic as he is making it out to be but i guess we will see.

The reason i didn't go with the UR kit is because i think 500-700 is better spent elsewhere. Both kit's put down basically the same power and i didn't want to pay extra for the dump tube running off the external wastegate to be rerouted back into the exhaust. Plus i think the Perrin kit looks better, minus the intake, but hopefully Dan can make me an aluminum intake that won't effect the performance.
Do any of you guys have problems with your idle or is it pretty rock solid? I heard that if you raise the idle a couple hundred rpm it should stay rock solid, but i would rather hear it from first hand experience.

Last edited by STimo; 05-28-2006 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 05-28-2006, 01:43 AM   #31
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STimo.....I think you are taking my statement and making more out of it than there truly is there to be searching for.

I didn't mean to make you think that this is some huge unavoidable problem. It is a problem without a doubt, but the fix is rather easy. Just take the perrin Intake and cut it just before the Recirc tube. Then have a 3 inch diameter pipe cut and bent to direct the intake into the fender well where the stock airbox hole is already cut out. It shouldn't be much of a problem at all, and cost is very low. and then just have Harman lengthen the wires of your MAF and stick it all in the fender well.....Here is what I am talking about. This is what Gruppe-S does on their Customer's Cars, it solves the problem 100% And the reason the stock setup isn't affected by the under hood temps is because the stock MAF housing isn't made of metal. I hope this helps you buddy, and since Harman Motive is subscribed to this thread they ought to be able to confirm to you, that this is a fairly easy solution, and something that they are more than capable of fabbing up for you in an afternoon or a day, if they need someone else to bend the piping.




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Old 05-28-2006, 01:45 AM   #32
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My idle is stock normal and steady. I think this issue may be more a function of injectors and tune.
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Old 05-28-2006, 01:59 AM   #33
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My idle is as rock solid as it can be....and my tune was from someone whom is concidered to be one of the premier tuners in the United States, so I hate to differ, but that has nothing to do with the problem. The problem plain and simple is that the Perrin Kit uses a Metal MAF housing. And that isn't a problem unless the car is being tuned on a Dyno that actually loads the wheels. However, flycaster I'd be interested for you to log what your intake temps are after you drive around for about 20 minutes and then come to a stop for a bit. You'll notice that your car will start pulling timing, which will go away once you start to take off again, but it's a problem regardless.
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Old 05-28-2006, 02:15 AM   #34
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Yeah i was definately overreacting to your statement, you had me worried a bit. I was actually already talking to Dan about the different options for an intake since i'm not too fond of the one that comes in the Perrin one. We didn't get into detail, but Dan didn't mention the problem of the maf housing heating up and pulling timing, but i'm sure we will go over everything on Monday.
What i really wanted to do was have a cold air aluminum intake made so it fixes this heatsoak problem, but i had some unexpected bills come in recently so i have a pretty tight budget to work with now. If the cost is more than the Perrin intake i unfortunately won't be able to do this until a later date. Thanks again for all the great info, this has helped me raise a couple more questions that i will be asking Dan on Monday.

BTW-2LTL2L8 I like the way you have your intake/maf housing setup. I was wondering how much did you pay to have this done? The Perrin intake is almost 400 so if it's less i'm hoping Dan can fab something like this up for me. Thanks for the pictures i really appreciate your help.

Last edited by STimo; 05-28-2006 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 05-28-2006, 07:21 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LTL2L8
...have a 3 inch diameter pipe cut and bent to direct the intake into the fender well where the stock airbox hole is already cut out. ...
Thanks for the pics. Looks like it's hard to change filters... or do you?

Last edited by ka mano; 05-28-2006 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 05-28-2006, 12:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LTL2L8
My idle is as rock solid as it can be....and my tune was from someone whom is concidered to be one of the premier tuners in the United States, so I hate to differ, but that has nothing to do with the problem.
I think you went off on a tangent here - he wanted to know if our idle was off. Some people have had problems with this once they've installed the Perrin Big MAF, and that's why I answered the way I did. Moreover, it seems you agree. Capsice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LTL2L8
The problem plain and simple is that the Perrin Kit uses a Metal MAF housing. And that isn't a problem unless the car is being tuned on a Dyno that actually loads the wheels. However, flycaster I'd be interested for you to log what your intake temps are after you drive around for about 20 minutes and then come to a stop for a bit. You'll notice that your car will start pulling timing, which will go away once you start to take off again, but it's a problem regardless.
Uh, please re-read post #28, in which I agreed with you. However, just using a dyno that loads (DD, Mustang, etc.) won't necessarily reveal the problem since a lot of dyno operators pop the hood and, in addition to putting blowers in front of the FMIC, they also put one blowing straight down on the motor. In those instances, there won't be any MAF heat-soak.

IOW, this problem, to the extent it exists, is likely to be far more predictable and repetitive in real-world scenarios (i.e., on the street). Last, I don't have the capacity to log otherwise I'd oblige you - but, again, it is simply unimportant to me since I have trouble putting 100% of the power to the wheels in 1st and 2nd gear even when it is hotter then hell outside and I've been sitting at a stop light. And in the winter, it's suicide.

To someone who drag races, however, I totally understand the problem.
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Old 05-28-2006, 05:41 PM   #37
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I drop my car off tomorrow around noon so i'll find out some more details. I'm not sure how Dan has his dyno setup but i'm almost positive he has a fan or two blowing. He has a dynojet if that tells you anything about the load, but i don't know one thing about dyno's so i'll have to ask him tomorrow if his puts load on or not.
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Old 05-28-2006, 05:50 PM   #38
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You could just buy my Ultimate-Racing Rotated Mount CAI I have for sale.

I am running a Hydra so I have no need for it any longer.

-Matt
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Old 05-28-2006, 10:10 PM   #39
STimo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyGT
You could just buy my Ultimate-Racing Rotated Mount CAI I have for sale.

I am running a Hydra so I have no need for it any longer.

-Matt
Thanks for the offer but i'm kinda a weird person and only like to buy new things.
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Old 05-29-2006, 05:37 PM   #40
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I just dropped my car off at Harman a couple hours ago. I decided to just go with the Perrin intake for now and later i will get either a utec or accessport and do a blow-thru maf setup. I still don't know if i'm going to need a boost controller so i wanted to put aside some money for that because i think that is more important than what intake i go with. Hopefully i can scrape up enough money to go with an electronic boost controller but we'll see.
Dan said the car should be done by Friday so hopefully by the end of the week i will have some numbers. I should know by wednesday or thursday wether or not i will go with a boost controller.
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Old 05-29-2006, 11:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STimo
...I should know by wednesday or thursday wether or not i will go with a boost controller.
You can always do it later if you need to, but I'd take Dan's advice on this and set it up the way he thinks is best.

Good luck - you've done your homework and you're gonna love it.
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Old 05-29-2006, 11:51 PM   #42
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i heard that sz55 is horrible on pump gas....but you wouldn't have run pump anyway, but to mix like that all the time would be a p.i.a and expensive as hell...
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:14 AM   #43
STimo
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^^ I just bought a drum (54gal) of VP ms109 (105 octane). I am only running 93 octane so i only have to mix 2 gallons of race gas for every 8 gallons of regular 91 octane. Honestly it isn't that big of a deal, right before i leave my house and go get gas i just toss 2 gallons of race gas in, go to the gas station and toss in another 8 gallons of regular gas. I think it will be worth it since it is easier to tune this way, is better for the car, and puts out a little bit more hp.
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:19 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster
You can always do it later if you need to, but I'd take Dan's advice on this and set it up the way he thinks is best.

Good luck - you've done your homework and you're gonna love it.
I honestly can't wait! I wish i could have gotten the utec and done a blow-thru and a race gas map, but this will just leave some power on the table for later when i feel like i need more (which always happens )
As for the boost controller, i'm hoping that if i do end up going with one, i can work something out with Dan and pay like 3/4's of it now, and then after i sell my stock turbo and intercooler pay the other 1/4. I dunno we'll see. I will definately keep you guys updated though.
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:59 AM   #45
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Good luck on your tune!

If you do get a UTEC, consider getting a 91 octane map so you can take your STi out of town more than half a tank away from home. Or you could get a pump + Torco map since Torco's concentrated and a lot easier to take with you than race.

Meanwhile... you've got a nice set-up and I hope it delivers the performance you're looking for!
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:35 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka mano
If you do get a UTEC, consider getting a 91 octane map so you can take your STi out of town more than half a tank away from home.
I absolutely concur - ditto if you go with the AP. Don't get stuck with a primary map that requires higher octane than you can readily find at all times - this must be an option.
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:44 AM   #47
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^My plan for now was to just run the 93 map and if i do a long car drive (farthest i go is vegas ) just use torco and not go into boost. I know this isn't the most ideal setup but i don't do long car drives really. Once i have enough money i'll get a Utec and do a 91oct tune and 105oct tune. I just don't really want to run 91oct because it is too crappy IMO.
Thanks for all the support from everyone too. I hope it is everything i expected and then some.
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Old 05-30-2006, 02:21 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka mano
Good luck on your tune!

If you do get a UTEC, consider getting a 91 octane map so you can take your STi out of town more than half a tank away from home. Or you could get a pump + Torco map since Torco's concentrated and a lot easier to take with you than race.

Meanwhile... you've got a nice set-up and I hope it delivers the performance you're looking for!
........or just turn down the boost with the MBC or EBC(whichever you have when the time comes)
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Old 05-30-2006, 02:25 AM   #49
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^also a good idea that i didn't even think of. I'm sure if i turned down the boost and didn't get on it much 91oct should be fine.
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Old 05-30-2006, 02:27 AM   #50
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^
what do you think I do when i can't get to the 101oct station or another 93oct station and I have to use that so called 91oct crap,if it's even 91. I whip out the hex key and turn it down a few psi
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