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Old 12-06-2008, 10:51 PM   #26
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I only heard part of the show 20/20 last night. That John Stossel was reviewing this bailout situation. Don't quote me because I might have heard wrong (and I'm feeling too lazy to look it up) but there is something in the union contracts that, when a plant is closed down, the worker get's to collect their salary for 4 years. They basically sit at work and do nothing -- for four years. They also said that the money to pay for that comes from cheapening the materials and build quality - not from cutting head count. The imports never operate like that. Their CEO's are not compensated the same way either. So - you think that this bailout is going to make any difference? With these types of policies? I'm sure the big 3 never doubted getting the money. It would be a national embarrassment to have them fail - and congress won't/can't let that happen. It just makes me sick because it isn't going to change anytime soon. We'll all just keep paying and paying -- whether we're driving the pieces of crap or just paying to have them built - or paying to have the union workers sit and collect a check. It's just plain disgusting ~~and the true national disgrace.
The UAW has agreed to end the Job Bank. (Assuming the membership votes for it, NOT a sure thing at all).
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Old 12-06-2008, 10:56 PM   #27
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wow.. this is ****ing retarded..
AIG should have tanked.
chrystler needs to tank.

i'm just going to give my entire salary to the detroit three..
they need the money more than i.


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Originally Posted by Chromer View Post
Directly? From the Chinese. (We better hope they keep buying our Treasury Bonds...)

Indirectly? From the taxes your kids will eventually pay.
no, our kids will get more loans so THEIR kids can pay it off..
you see my friend, it's a cycle
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Old 12-06-2008, 11:27 PM   #28
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Giving them barely enough to survive and not enough to actually improve their products is not only reckless but a waste of money. No one wants to give them money, but if it is the matter of another $10B to get them securely on their feet and have them start building world-class products again then the loan is well worth the risk.

Aren't we waste $10B A MONTH in Iraq? Having a competitive US auto industry is well worth the money.

Why didn't the financial institutions have to jump through these same hoops to get a $700B bailout???
I think so too, but I guess congress wants to see if any of the big 3 can display some visible improvement with the money they receive now so that future loans can be considered. Congress is probably counting on atleast one of the 3 to tank so that less money is needed to allocate for the others.
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:08 AM   #29
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Bankruptcy yes, tank, not so...
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:37 AM   #30
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Bankruptcy is tanking in my book, but yes we don't want any of them to leave the US market permanently.
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Old 12-07-2008, 01:21 AM   #31
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Bankruptcy is tanking in my book, but yes we don't want any of them to leave the US market permanently.
exactly.
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:22 AM   #32
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I can haz cash plates + printing press plz?
almost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromer View Post
Directly? From the Chinese. (We better hope they keep buying our Treasury Bonds...)

Indirectly? From the taxes your kids will eventually pay.
also close

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knotsure View Post
I only heard part of the show 20/20 last night. That John Stossel was reviewing this bailout situation. Don't quote me because I might have heard wrong (and I'm feeling too lazy to look it up) but there is something in the union contracts that, when a plant is closed down, the worker get's to collect their salary for 4 years. They basically sit at work and do nothing -- for four years. They also said that the money to pay for that comes from cheapening the materials and build quality - not from cutting head count. The imports never operate like that. Their CEO's are not compensated the same way either. So - you think that this bailout is going to make any difference? With these types of policies? I'm sure the big 3 never doubted getting the money. It would be a national embarrassment to have them fail - and congress won't/can't let that happen. It just makes me sick because it isn't going to change anytime soon. We'll all just keep paying and paying -- whether we're driving the pieces of crap or just paying to have them built - or paying to have the union workers sit and collect a check. It's just plain disgusting ~~and the true national disgrace.
^ cheap still doesn't explain ugly lol
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:56 AM   #33
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So, I guess this means we all are getting taxed on cars that almost none of us own or drive (seeing how this is a Subaru forum).

A free market only works when companies are held responsible for their actions with that freedom. What a moral hazard this has created...
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:45 AM   #34
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So, I guess this means we all are getting taxed on cars that almost none of us own or drive (seeing how this is a Subaru forum).

A free market only works when companies are held responsible for their actions with that freedom. What a moral hazard this has created...
There is no such thing as a "free market" - there never has been, there never will be.
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:10 AM   #35
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Yeah, no.

You can sure as hell bet that the plants that here in the US would be utilized and the tanks would likely last longer, be lighter, have better range and accuracy if built in a Toyota plant by Toyota employees.

Are you FKM ? The M1A3 is the US Armys and Marines main battle tank is the premeir tank in the world and yes the Japanese produce tanks too . Guess who makes it Chrystler Defense Systems .
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:35 AM   #36
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Saw this news article and it puts a lot of things into perspective in my opinion...
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/ht...812040008.html

The Korean government is dropping US$200 billion into a video game development fund because they have the forethought to see that investing in business will eventually pay off in the end in more and better jobs, which will ultimately better the entire country.

Here in the US, there are some people that have the gall to oppose giving our ONLY domestic automakers a "measly" $30B loan (with stipulations) to survive? Are you kidding me? How short-sighted are these people???
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:49 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
Saw this news article and it puts a lot of things into perspective in my opinion...
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/ht...812040008.html

The Korean government is dropping US$200 billion into a video game development fund because they have the forethought to see that investing in business will eventually pay off in the end in more and better jobs, which will ultimately better the entire country.

Here in the US, there are some people that have the gall to oppose giving our ONLY domestic automakers a "measly" $30B loan (with stipulations) to survive? Are you kidding me? How short-sighted are these people???
uhm this isnt the first time uncle sam has given the auto industry cash. this is also in addition to the 25billion for retooling. do you honestly feel the taxpayers awe the auto industry billions more? seriously?

200billion into a development fund vs. XXbillion to catch up with the rest of the world because of your own stupidity.. 2 different things


the whole we really dont have ANY money to be lending should fit into the equation somewhere.
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:29 PM   #38
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uhm this isnt the first time uncle sam has given the auto industry cash. this is also in addition to the 25billion for retooling. do you honestly feel the taxpayers awe the auto industry billions more? seriously?

200billion into a development fund vs. XXbillion to catch up with the rest of the world because of your own stupidity.. 2 different things


the whole we really dont have ANY money to be lending should fit into the equation somewhere.
You are saying it like we have a CHOICE in the matter.
We don't. We really don't.

I fully believe that if the economy didn't crap out on us as badly as it has - with job losses of 500,000 in ONE month, which is the worst in 30 years - I do think the US automakers could have pulled through on their own. But tack on an insanely bad economy, on top of a bizarre situation in which gasoline shot up to nearly $5/gallon and then dropped to under $2 in just a couple of months and we really are in some crazy times now. They are so nuts that a business can't even plan just a couple of months ahead because who knows what will crop up.

This recession officially started a year ago, making it already one of the longest ones since WW2 (they average about 9 months), and many people are saying that we'll be in this mess for most of next year. People don't buy cars in this type of climate. When even the Hondas and Toyotas of the world are seeing sales drop 30% you know something nuts is going down.
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:34 PM   #39
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The US auto industry has never been a free market. It has had government regulations imposed on it for many many decades. Safety, economy, labor, pollution,etc.
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:58 PM   #40
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Are you FKM ? The M1A3 is the US Armys and Marines main battle tank is the premeir tank in the world and yes the Japanese produce tanks too . Guess who makes it Chrystler Defense Systems .
Yawn,

Yeah, I know, I drive past TACOM every day.

People are arguing that if the Big3 disappeared we could not build war machines, when in reality we still have talented engineers and workers building cars at plants here in the US that would be utilized in a heartbeat. Do you really think that a Toyota plant would not be utilized because they are owned by the Japanese?
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Old 12-07-2008, 01:22 PM   #41
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I for one look forward to the:

Hummer H100,000-or also known as the supermarket murderer.

The SRT-10.5- The .5 actually splits the space time continuum

The Shelby cobra gt 500 minivan- Because yore bad ass!
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Old 12-07-2008, 01:29 PM   #42
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The Shelby cobra gt 500 minivan- Because yore bad ass!
I would totally rock that!
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:04 PM   #43
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AIG should have tanked.
chrystler needs to tank.

i'm just going to give my entire salary to the detroit three..
they need the money more than i.
gm needs to tank

Is that last part serious? You care so much that you would give your livelihood to a company that will waste it anyways. GM is irresponsible and bailing them out delays the inevietable along with encouraging bad business practices.
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:06 PM   #44
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The US auto industry has never been a free market. It has had government regulations imposed on it for many many decades. Safety, economy, labor, pollution,etc.
if they would have actually paid attention to regulation they wouldn't be in as big of a problem as they are. can i get a bailout?
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:18 PM   #45
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You are saying it like we have a CHOICE in the matter.
We don't. We really don't.

I fully believe that if the economy didn't crap out on us as badly as it has - with job losses of 500,000 in ONE month, which is the worst in 30 years - I do think the US automakers could have pulled through on their own. But tack on an insanely bad economy, on top of a bizarre situation in which gasoline shot up to nearly $5/gallon and then dropped to under $2 in just a couple of months and we really are in some crazy times now. They are so nuts that a business can't even plan just a couple of months ahead because who knows what will crop up.

This recession officially started a year ago, making it already one of the longest ones since WW2 (they average about 9 months), and many people are saying that we'll be in this mess for most of next year. People don't buy cars in this type of climate. When even the Hondas and Toyotas of the world are seeing sales drop 30% you know something nuts is going down.
they have been shipping jobs to mexico and canada for the longest, and even thier retooling plans were initially for central/south america. the slipping dollar probably will save a few jobs in the long-run. assuming no one gets rid of the union contracts, something that bankrupcy would have allowed.

also fuel and emmisions mandates were out before the gas price jumped, the fact is noone cared. they still would have made more money selling SUV's and paying a fine for fleet average vs. actually getting decent cars to the US market, i wont even start on the EV1 either.

and even though toyota/honda have seen sales decreases the ystill manage to not owe god and country, yes toyota sells a ton of trucks also, but they actually have high volume cars that sell as well as honda. US companies stopped caring about cars(in america) a long time ago. **** em. i wouldnt give them any money until they claimed bankrupcy.

and if you think 5bucks a gallon is shocking just wait till we catch up to the rest of the world, it's not going to stay at 2bucks
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:24 PM   #46
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they got the money
Less AWFUL American cars is what the world needs.
let them
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:29 PM   #47
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they got the money
Less AWFUL American cars is what the world needs.
let them
atleast ford is trying not to use the money, GM needs it, Chrysler is a dead company walking. they have nothing to offer(jeep is ok but can get picked up/sold off pretty easily)
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:40 PM   #48
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they got the money
Less AWFUL American cars is what the world needs.
let them
Are you suggesting the big 3 disappear from the face of the earth? A very unwise suggestion even if you hate them. Why? Because as a consumer within the auto market, your best friend will always be something called competition. Competition will provide incentives for producers to improve their products over the others and if the 3 continue improving their line-up as they have been over recent times, wouldn't you as the consumer appreciate having more options in buying a better car?
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:53 PM   #49
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Are you suggesting the big 3 disappear from the face of the earth? A very unwise suggestion even if you hate them. Why? Because as a consumer within the auto market, your best friend will always be something called competition. Competition will provide incentives for producers to improve their products over the others and if the 3 continue improving their line-up as they have been over recent times, wouldn't you as the consumer appreciate having more options in buying a better car?
what competitive CAR does chrysler sell that isnt a viper? what future car have they shown that is/should be competitive?
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:16 PM   #50
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what competitive CAR does chrysler sell that isnt a viper? what future car have they shown that is/should be competitive?
300C
Their Minivans
For future cars, the Hornet looked damn cool.

The Sebring is an absolute abortion... and the Caliber is pretty craptacular too, but it appears to me that they have been running in "Emergency Mode" for so long, that for the last few years they have just been running around putting out fires and just barely keeping the company going without having the resources to actually getting back into the game.
I think you have to look not at what they have out now, but rather look at what potential products COULD come out of them if they were given the chance.

Remember - the LH cars were absolutely revolutionary in their day... might be tough to believe now, but they were a styling leader in the early 90's. Similar deal with the 300C when it first came out.
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