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Old 12-07-2008, 10:32 PM   #51
SQ3.0dotJP
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aspen
aspen hybrid
300c
PT cruiser
sebring
sebring convertible
pacifica
crossfire

if you think we can ill afford to lose chrysler you are wrong
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:38 PM   #52
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dodge was trying to roll this little guy out too...



http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ive/index.html

*edit*

also whatever happened to the Demon???


Last edited by cefoskey; 12-07-2008 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SQ3.0dotJP View Post
what competitive CAR does chrysler sell that isnt a viper? what future car have they shown that is/should be competitive?
I'll be honest, nothing really stands out for me from chrysler's current lineup. A car such as the caliber competing in the same segment as the civic or corolla is downright laughable. As I said in my previous post, I do think the government is expecting one of the big 3 (most likely chrysler) to officially file for bankruptcy in the near future. Chrysler has already hired some law firm a few months ago to handle an imminent bankrupt filing. The money given now is more or less buying the government time away from having to really give the necessary funds so that they can address other sectors within the economy.

Bankruptcy and leaving the market entirely can be two very different things. By filing for bankruptcy, they may be able to restructure themselves until the market is more suitable for them to enter again vs. leaving it entirely. Over the course of that time, they could be developing more appealing cars, probably with aid investment from foreign or domestic companies. Returning to a point I made earlier, it is in your best interest if Chrysler succeeds in creating more appealing cars as you the consumer want more options available to you.

EDIT: Case in point: options like the Dodge Demon or EV above ^^^ if those ever came into production.
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:58 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Subawhoo View Post
I'll be honest, nothing really stands out for me from chrysler's current lineup. A car such as the caliber competing in the same segment as the civic or corolla is downright laughable. As I said in my previous post, I do think the government is expecting one of the big 3 (most likely chrysler) to officially file for bankruptcy in the near future. Chrysler has already hired some law firm a few months ago to handle an imminent bankrupt filing. The money given now is more or less buying the government time away from having to really give the necessary funds so that they can address other sectors within the economy.

Bankruptcy and leaving the market entirely can be two very different things. By filing for bankruptcy, they may be able to restructure themselves until the market is more suitable for them to enter again vs. leaving it entirely. Over the course of that time, they could be developing more appealing cars, probably with aid investment from foreign or domestic companies. Returning to a point I made earlier, it is in your best interest if Chrysler succeeds in creating more appealing cars as you the consumer want more options available to you.

EDIT: Case in point: options like the Dodge Demon or EV above ^^^ if those ever came into production.
you know the demon will be FWD if it even comes out? pretty pointless IMO.

if i borrow money, then claim bankruptcy, do i have to pay the money back that i borrowed beforehand? i just think it dangerous to give billions when there really is no guarentee it will come back. ford and GM seem to be better investments, but chrysler? aside from jeep and viper, i really can think of nothing good. though the 300 is a hood favorite
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:02 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Subawhoo View Post
I'll be honest, nothing really stands out for me from chrysler's current lineup. A car such as the caliber competing in the same segment as the civic or corolla is downright laughable. As I said in my previous post, I do think the government is expecting one of the big 3 (most likely chrysler) to officially file for bankruptcy in the near future. Chrysler has already hired some law firm a few months ago to handle an imminent bankrupt filing. The money given now is more or less buying the government time away from having to really give the necessary funds so that they can address other sectors within the economy.

Bankruptcy and leaving the market entirely can be two very different things. By filing for bankruptcy, they may be able to restructure themselves until the market is more suitable for them to enter again vs. leaving it entirely. Over the course of that time, they could be developing more appealing cars, probably with aid investment from foreign or domestic companies. Returning to a point I made earlier, it is in your best interest if Chrysler succeeds in creating more appealing cars as you the consumer want more options available to you.

EDIT: Case in point: options like the Dodge Demon or EV above ^^^ if those ever came into production.
also the impact of 2 roadsters to the bottom line will be next to nothing
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:23 PM   #56
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you know the demon will be FWD if it even comes out? pretty pointless IMO.

if i borrow money, then claim bankruptcy, do i have to pay the money back that i borrowed beforehand? i just think it dangerous to give billions when there really is no guarentee it will come back. ford and GM seem to be better investments, but chrysler? aside from jeep and viper, i really can think of nothing good. though the 300 is a hood favorite
I'm pretty sure many Americans still buy FWD cars. Let's remember that styling sells too and the Demon concept based on that photo looks really good to me. I doubt most people who are concerned with their image is worried about drivetrain layout.

If Chrysler can't pay up, the govt is more likely to liquidate any assets they can until their debt is gone with company owners not receiving compensations at the end, atleast that's the theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SQ3.0dotJP View Post
also the impact of 2 roadsters to the bottom line will be next to nothing
I never said they would have a major or positive impact, but they haven't been introduced yet so we have no idea on how they may sell. Sports car segments are usually smaller compared to the rest due to the fact that they are generally more expensive to purchase and maintain than your run of the mill camary or civic. But shoppers within this segment would still appreciate having more options to choose from.
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:35 AM   #57
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Here is a question that one of you guys might be able to answer:

When the Detroit automakers went back to DC this past week, all the news reports were saying they drove hybrids.

OK, well Wagoner has his Volt test mule (using the Cruze sheetmetal).

I am assuming Mullaly drove either an Escape Hybrid, or possibly the new Fusion hybrid.

So what did the Execs of Chrysler drive to DC in??
This abortion of a vehicle? (which I believe was canceled even before it hit production)


Or did they have to rent a Prius hybrid from their local car rental place?
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:00 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Subawhoo View Post
I'm pretty sure many Americans still buy FWD cars. Let's remember that styling sells too and the Demon concept based on that photo looks really good to me. I doubt most people who are concerned with their image is worried about drivetrain layout.

If Chrysler can't pay up, the govt is more likely to liquidate any assets they can until their debt is gone with company owners not receiving compensations at the end, atleast that's the theory.



I never said they would have a major or positive impact, but they haven't been introduced yet so we have no idea on how they may sell. Sports car segments are usually smaller compared to the rest due to the fact that they are generally more expensive to purchase and maintain than your run of the mill camary or civic. But shoppers within this segment would still appreciate having more options to choose from.


see what you did there? unless this car(demon) brings back the Del Sol spirirt(whom most of us called ghey) it has no chance.
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:57 AM   #59
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Looks like the Republicans are moving to Fillibuster this bailout this morning .
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:39 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Subawhoo View Post
Bankruptcy is tanking in my book, but yes we don't want any of them to leave the US market permanently.
How so? If they go bankrupt, they're protected from creditors and agree paying whatever debt ordered by the court. GM will still exist and operate. If they tank, all sources are depleted and they will not exist anymore...
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Old 12-08-2008, 02:01 PM   #61
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Looks like the Republicans are moving to Fillibuster this bailout this morning .
Any update?
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Old 12-08-2008, 05:10 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
Here is a question that one of you guys might be able to answer:

When the Detroit automakers went back to DC this past week, all the news reports were saying they drove hybrids.

OK, well Wagoner has his Volt test mule (using the Cruze sheetmetal).

I am assuming Mullaly drove either an Escape Hybrid, or possibly the new Fusion hybrid.

So what did the Execs of Chrysler drive to DC in??
This abortion of a vehicle? (which I believe was canceled even before it hit production)


Or did they have to rent a Prius hybrid from their local car rental place?
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Indus...6387062&page=1



1. Wagoner: Volt-Cruze after a Malibu Hybrid


2. Mulally: Escape Hybrid

3. Nardelli: Aspen Hybrid
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:04 PM   #63
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see what you did there? unless this car(demon) brings back the Del Sol spirirt(whom most of us called ghey) it has no chance.
I still see no problem, the sports car segment is smaller than the family car segment, but have you seen how big the market for economical sedans are? Just because enthusiasts like yourself prefer RWD, that doesn't necessarily define an entire market segment.

I suppose since your main gripe is giving tax dollars to Chrysler is bad because you perceive them as a failure. Truth is, they still sell more cars then subaru, just look at this sales report http://www.autoblog.com/category/by-the-numbers/

We all hear how the 3 has suffered major sales lost, but look at the numbers, they still exceed sales compared to many other brands. Their cars being failed abortions is not the entire story as to why they are slumping so much, you need to take into account the "spectacular" management the 3 has and high production costs thanks in part to the UAW. That being said, Chrysler still has a market incentive to keep on going, I just think they need to do alittle downsizing now along with introducing better cars. Only then will Chrysler or the other US automakers be able to compete more appropriately in the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigElm View Post
How so? If they go bankrupt, they're protected from creditors and agree paying whatever debt ordered by the court. GM will still exist and operate. If they tank, all sources are depleted and they will not exist anymore...
I suppose the general consensus for the term tanking means completely going under and to the no point of return? If so, that wasn't my intention for saying tanking, I just wanted to get the idea across that bankruptcy is really bad, but not as bad as leaving the market entirely.

Last edited by Subawhoo; 12-08-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:36 AM   #64
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hmm

If Microsoft/GE/Boeing etc was going bust - would we bail them out?

I'm sure that would affect millions in the US (and world).
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:06 AM   #65
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Sorry but a vastly different movement in this country needs to be made. Throughout the 90's honda and toyota destroyed the Americans in quality and refinement, so the American Big 3 gave up that game and started to undercut them in price to sell cars. Along comes the Koreans. They can build cars that were initially relying on their price alone to sell cars. Then a funny thing happened. They began to improve their products, invested in R&D, did some real market research, and were able to edge their quality up year by year. Hyundia is exponentially better than they were 10 years ago. They now have quality AND price. They are following the footsteps of Toyota in the 70's. In 10 years watch out for the Koreans...

Back to the point. We cannot rely on cheap craptastic econoboxes to sell cars. We are beaten on price by the Koreans, and by quality by the Japanese. My bottom line is that there is no inherent right for there to be 3 large American auto companies. Its not in the constitution. The time has come for the strong to survive. If we keep playing this "no car company left behind" crap, we only make the remaining two weaker.

I know GM says if any one of the big three go under they are all in trouble, but I am not totally buying that. I think that if any of the big three file bankruptcy and are allowed to restructure, sans union control, the other two will feel they have an unfair advantage.

Tell you what. I propose this, if I were the new Obama Car CZAR, I would do this...

Give the bail out money to GM,
Give Ford the 'line of credit' that they asked for
Let Chrysler declare bankruptcy but do not dissolve them. Allow them to restructure free from Union bondage. Appoint a new visionary CEO, like Carlos Ghosn from Nissan with fresh ideas. Use Chrysler as a control group and see what they are capable of with no union involvement.

You have one company that gave up and got a bailout
One company that is trying to make it on their own
One company that has been radically changed internally with a fresh slate

See which one returns to profitability first.
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