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Old 11-28-2009, 10:31 PM   #1
chrisc75
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Default the new billet compressor wheel..good/bad?

so ever since blouch came out with a billet compressor wheel i sent my dom 3 over to get it done and also the new 10cm2 hotside..i dont regret it because of there amazing service but this is what i found on another forum by an engineer at Borg Warner turbos regarding the new billet wheel technology..what do u guys think?

Originally Posted by BW AirWerks
In general... yes, we can make anything if you want to pay for it In the performance and/or racing world though, there is really no benefit to using a "billet" CW other than it's shinny. Basically, billet, or FMW (Forged Milled Wheel) compressors came about due to OE applications requiring them. When a turbo is constantly being cycled from high speed to low speed, the wheel becomes fatigued and can eventually lead to a hub burst (CW splits in half). Imagine the compressor acting like a big drag slick like you see on top fuel cars; during the burnout, you can see them get skinny and "grow" in height... On a much smaller scale, the CW sees this same process over and over again, and over time this weakens the wheel, eventually leading to a fracture and possibly a hub burst. Now ask your self how many times you've seen a race car's CW split in half... I have never, and I've seen a LOT of failures. Even the billet aluminum isn't enough in some newer applications and we've turned to titanium which in its FMW form, is nearly indestructible. I've heard all the propaganda surrounding the billet wheel myths: higher boost capability, higher flow, higher efficiency, etc... The higher boost capability is the only one which is true, but not because it's machined and not true for racing use. OE diesel applications using FMW compressors can run higher boost pressures more reliably simply because they are less susceptible to fatigue as they're cycled from higher speeds (required to make more pressure) to low speeds.
So, why would anyone offer a billet wheel to the racing/performance market? Couple/three reasons:
- Some people just want them because they look really nice... and are willing to pay the cost difference.
- Because it already exists in an OE production application and it's easily installed into performance turbos, sometimes they're even interchangeable with existing cast wheels.
- Applications where a cast wheel does not exist (maybe a larger inducer is needed) or production volumes are believed to never be high enough to justify tooling costs.
Are they cheaper than cast wheels? ...NO. Even in high production volumes, a billet wheel will always be more expensive than a cast wheel. However, if a company wants to make a compressor all their own (not using an existing "big" turbo manufacture's wheel ie. BW, Garrett, Holset) it would most likely be cheaper as they would have to tool up to make all the cast versions. If a company makes a mistake in the design of a billet wheel, they can simply keep changing the program until they get something that works... The OE manufacturer does all the development work up front to arrive at the best possible design for what's needed. Once the design is finalized, a "master wheel" is machined and used for the tooling master... that's right, all cast wheels get their start from a very nice billet wheel that when tooling is made, creates the same exact performance characteristics in a much cheaper and faster to produce cast version.
Phew... Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but hopefully this helps explain why billet wheels exist. Short version is billet wheels are no better than cast wheels for any performance or racing application I'm aware of... but they sure do look great!









a link to the original thread on honda tech regarding 67mm turbos and the new outlaw class

http://honda-tech.com/newreply.php?d...ply&p=40746094
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:34 PM   #2
Jaren1
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to bad you have to be a member to view the thread. FAIL

I certainly wont join a honda forum
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:40 PM   #3
CKxx
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Your BOV sounds lame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lezbaru View Post
to bad you have to be a member to view the thread. FAIL

I certainly wont join a honda forum
You don't need to be a member to view the thread...but he linked us to the "post reply" page...
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:13 PM   #4
Web Foot STi
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I agree with the Borg Warner engineer. If you have a fatigue/rpm problem with Al you switch to Ti. If you want something "special" then a machined Al wheel makes sense, or if you have a really low volume application.

Whittling parts in volume is more expensive than investment casting them.

PS: I worked for a company that cast Ti compressor wheels and high alloy turban wheels...
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:33 PM   #5
CKxx
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Your BOV sounds lame
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It should be noted that there are a few other differences (that I know of), but I can't speak for the blouche wheels.

On the FP HTA models, the inducer size is reduced, and the compressor blades are apparently larger down towards the exducer end. Additionally, there are 7 blades on the compressor wheel instead of the 6 from Garrett. It is not, however, a direct, exact, replacement simply made with a difference process. Again, I am speaking about FP's models. The added power may not come from a lighter wheels, rather it is likely a result of a more efficient wheel design (which may just be a BW wheel on a Garrett CHRA).
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:15 PM   #6
CKxx
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Your BOV sounds lame
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Bump for more thoughts...
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Old 10-15-2021, 11:32 PM   #7
MFNcody
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Bumping this one back out of the grave because perhaps there might be some new insights on this matter in the course of the last 12 years?

I'm probably in need of a replacement turbo for my daily driver saabaru. Waiting for a chance to get stuff off and see if I killed my turbo or not. I was just gonna get another TD04 new or maybe just a new CHRA since they're reasonably cheap. Then it occurred to me to check out a billet wheel replacement since that's a thing.

here's a few examples:
http://http://shopping.kinugawaturbo...g63trvr-1.aspx
http://https://www.shop.mambatek.com...0-010-D479.htm
http://https://www.ebay.com/itm/263165838933

None make any claims about performance/durability benefits but there are some physical features specified such as having a narrower nose, a deeper blade, and tapered out blade tips which all make some intuitive sense to me as being better and all have some perceivable reason to have been compromised against in the production cast parts.

Any new thoughts and experiences?
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Old 10-16-2021, 12:05 AM   #8
K3rm1tth3fr0g
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFNcody View Post
Bumping this one back out of the grave because perhaps there might be some new insights on this matter in the course of the last 12 years?

I'm probably in need of a replacement turbo for my daily driver saabaru. Waiting for a chance to get stuff off and see if I killed my turbo or not. I was just gonna get another TD04 new or maybe just a new CHRA since they're reasonably cheap. Then it occurred to me to check out a billet wheel replacement since that's a thing.

here's a few examples:
http://http://shopping.kinugawaturbo...g63trvr-1.aspx
http://https://www.shop.mambatek.com...0-010-D479.htm
http://https://www.ebay.com/itm/263165838933

None make any claims about performance/durability benefits but there are some physical features specified such as having a narrower nose, a deeper blade, and tapered out blade tips which all make some intuitive sense to me as being better and all have some perceivable reason to have been compromised against in the production cast parts.

Any new thoughts and experiences?
Stop looking at crappy ebay tubros and stop bumping dead threads
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Old 10-16-2021, 12:43 AM   #9
D-Rodman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFNcody View Post
Bumping this one back out of the grave because perhaps there might be some new insights on this matter in the course of the last 12 years?



I'm probably in need of a replacement turbo for my daily driver saabaru. Waiting for a chance to get stuff off and see if I killed my turbo or not. I was just gonna get another TD04 new or maybe just a new CHRA since they're reasonably cheap. Then it occurred to me to check out a billet wheel replacement since that's a thing.



here's a few examples:

http://http://shopping.kinugawaturbo...g63trvr-1.aspx

http://https://www.shop.mambatek.com...0-010-D479.htm

http://https://www.ebay.com/itm/263165838933



None make any claims about performance/durability benefits but there are some physical features specified such as having a narrower nose, a deeper blade, and tapered out blade tips which all make some intuitive sense to me as being better and all have some perceivable reason to have been compromised against in the production cast parts.



Any new thoughts and experiences?


Speaking of crappy eBay turbos, I love my Arashi TD04HL 19T, the T should be for tits, its a great little big turbo. For daily duty I enjoy it much more than my VF48.
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Old 11-01-2021, 12:27 AM   #10
ogboot
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Sure, I have experience with Kinugawa.

After a highway on-ramp pull with maybe 15k on the turbo it seized, stopped returning oil to the head and fused the cam to the motor. So now I have a stroker 2.19L & a Blouch turbo.
Do not recommend Kinugawa although of course your mileage may vary, maybe theyve changed in the last few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFNcody View Post
Bumping this one back out of the grave because perhaps there might be some new insights on this matter in the course of the last 12 years?

I'm probably in need of a replacement turbo for my daily driver saabaru. Waiting for a chance to get stuff off and see if I killed my turbo or not. I was just gonna get another TD04 new or maybe just a new CHRA since they're reasonably cheap. Then it occurred to me to check out a billet wheel replacement since that's a thing.

here's a few examples:
http://http://shopping.kinugawaturbo...g63trvr-1.aspx
http://https://www.shop.mambatek.com...0-010-D479.htm
http://https://www.ebay.com/itm/263165838933

None make any claims about performance/durability benefits but there are some physical features specified such as having a narrower nose, a deeper blade, and tapered out blade tips which all make some intuitive sense to me as being better and all have some perceivable reason to have been compromised against in the production cast parts.

Any new thoughts and experiences?
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