Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday March 1, 2021
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-22-2021, 08:42 PM   #1
SubaDuba420
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 102793
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Ugly Sedan

Default Porsche Synthetic Fuel, ICE Clean as EVs

Porsche Says Its Synthetic Fuel Could Make Gas-Powered Engines as Clean as EVs
The marque believes its eFuel would allow combustion engines to be as clean as electric drivetrains

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/p...ve-1234597977/

Quote:
The Porsche Taycan may be one of the most exciting EVs on the market right now, but that doesn’t mean the German automaker is ready to give up on the combustion engine just yet.

The marque’s vice president Motorsport and GT cars, Dr. Frank Walliser, told British car magazine Evo that the company is hard at work on a synthetic fuel technology that could save traditional, gas-powered mills. The fuel won’t just reduce emissions, either; it has the potential to make combustion engines just as clean as their battery-powered counterparts, the executive said.

Walliser claims the company’s synthetic fuel, which will be called eFuel, can be used in any combustion engine and is scheduled to start undergoing testing next year. The fuel is less complex than traditional gas—eight to 10 components compared to 30 to 40—allowing it to burn cleaner, with fewer particulates and NOx. Because of this, the total carbon footprint of the vehicle will be equal to that of an EV.

“Synthetic fuel is cleaner and there is no bi-product, and when we start full production we expect a CO2 reduction of 85 percent,” Walliser told the publication. “From a ‘well to wheel’ perspective—and you have to consider the well to wheel impact of all vehicles—this will be the same level of CO2 produced in the manufacture and use of an electric vehicle.”

Porsche isn’t the only premium automaker exploring the potential of synthetic fuel. Last spring, McLaren Automotive COO Jens Ludmann said the British marque viewed the nascent technology as a valid alternative to electric drivetrains. The executive also said the marque intended to eventually build a prototype that would run on synthetic fuel.

Although it will take a lot of time and money to make synthetic fuel a reality, it’s easy to see why automakers like Porsche and McLaren are intrigued by its potential. Despite a shift towards EV production, and pledges from automakers to stop producing vehicles with combustion engines entirely, only 3.2 million of the 64 million vehicles sold last year were EVs. If development of the technology continues, it has the potential to offer yet another way of lowering dangerous emissions worldwide.
I'm not holding my breath, but we can always hope...
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
SubaDuba420 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 02-22-2021, 08:52 PM   #2
oichan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 492327
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: A car lounge in the midwest
Vehicle:
19 WRX 16 STI
17Mk7R 20Supra 20Forester

Default

Fast forward 5 yrs after production release.. EPA fines VW Group for billions of $$$ for doctored test data.. I don't trust these folks after the diesel scandal.
oichan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 09:36 PM   #3
hi5.0
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 340456
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2013 Impreza

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oichan View Post
Fast forward 5 yrs after production release.. EPA fines VW Group for billions of $$$ for doctored test data.. I don't trust these folks after the diesel scandal.

Exactly.



Highly doubt it will live up to (all) the claims, but would be pretty good if the concept could also be applied to aviation.
hi5.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 10:19 AM   #4
Masterauto
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 198376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Delaware
Vehicle:
21 Pickuptrucknext
ACURA MDX

Default

CNG or natural gas is cleaner than EVs on well to well basis. Most the cabs and many trucks Asia use it because its so cheap. Any vehicle can be easily adapted to use it for few hundred $ and even Diesels run well on CNG. Only disadvantage you need larger fuel tanks.
Masterauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 10:32 AM   #5
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

This is one of those things where somebody trots out a new technology, tries to get the government to buy in, fails to get sufficient support, and fizzles.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 12:11 PM   #6
mhoward1
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 9481
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FFR Challenge #43
Vehicle:
1832 Steam Buggy
Wood

Default

Yeah,
I have some doubts in the claims made.
mhoward1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 01:29 PM   #7
wrxsubaru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65133
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Default

[quote=SubaDuba420;46521329

I'm not holding my breath, but we can always hope...[/QUOTE]

This already exist as renewable diesel and there are some renewable gasoline products too.

This article is missing the caveat of not enough low carbon feedstock to really replace fuel consumed. There are more performance issues with these fuels but nothing that cannot be overcome.

If your interested the below has good general information on the different common alt fuels.

afdc.energy.gov
wrxsubaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 03:09 PM   #8
BeepBoop
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 496462
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: MN
Default

We really need to definitively step past the idea of things going boom as a method of energy conversion. Get with the program and help figure out the battery problem instead of trying to find every way possible to maybe hold onto ICE.
BeepBoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 03:48 PM   #9
NighthawkSTI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 495630
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default

$20 per gallon. Sounds like a great solution. NOT. Look at companies like NIO.....no type of "combustible fuel" engines are going to be able to compete with them. They have battery swap technology that is outselling their standard battery equipped models, as the battery can be swapped out in 3 minutes. BAAS look at it.

Also the BAAS allows them to exponentially increase the available supply of battery metals through recycling, and over time reduced the need for mining. NIO is a no brainer. Robo Taxi's, The best self driving tech, and growing exponentially. Will be #1 in the largest automotive market on the planet by the end of this year.

Auto manufacturers that are dicking around with combistible fuels are just wasting time.

The factory they are building is going to output 600,000 cars a year by 2023. Expanding to Europe this year and then the U.S

All these sugar coated alternative fuels, that wont be viable and will cost a weeks pay to fill the tank every time are just the last gasps of Fuel producing ventures to put some kind of a spark into the industry that is being drained with every EV that rolls out of an assembly line.
NighthawkSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 04:17 PM   #10
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
18 Highlander
Yami XSR

Default

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. For every bit of energy they get out of this fuel, they have to input the same, or more energy. They plan on powering their plants with wind power, thereby keeping the carbon footprint low. But is this fuel really the best method of storing energy? Or are batteries?

On top of that, this project has (ambitious) plans to produce up to about 145 million gallons of synthetic fuel in 2026. The US alone consumes close to 400 million gallons of gasoline PER DAY.

More technical information here: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...els-23021.html
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 05:26 PM   #11
Dex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 163775
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Getting schwifty
Vehicle:
2014 Ford Fiester ST
Murica Red

Default

Not everyone is interested in electric vehicles. I get that most people don't care and will drive whatever, but there is a large demographic that is not on board with electric. Speaking on behalf of enthusiasts, not those who have range fears, political woes, etc, we spend a lot of money on ICE because it's fun. I don't see a lot of us suddenly stopping our interest in ICE because of electric. Sure, I'd love an electric commuter, but I'll still have a passion for motors that burn stuff. It's a nerdy, mechanical thing. I know a lot of you guys are done with ICE, but some of us are down with both.

I think ICE's long term future will most likely be enthusiast/hobby based and companies know this. Thus, creating a cleaner burning fuel is probably a good idea if the tech exists.
Dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 05:31 PM   #12
subyski
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 202642
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Centennial, Colorado
Vehicle:
08 Impreza,80Vette
68 Impala, 15 SantaFe

Default

If this fuel is flexible and can be used in older vehicles, then I can see appeal in the classic/vintage car market. People are going to have older ICE vehicles for a while and there will be people who will keep ICE collectables.
subyski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 06:28 PM   #13
NighthawkSTI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 495630
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
If this fuel is flexible and can be used in older vehicles, then I can see appeal in the classic/vintage car market. People are going to have older ICE vehicles for a while and there will be people who will keep ICE collectables.
No way will this fuel porsche is experimenting with be able to just dump into a late 60's muscle car without mods to the fuel system and carburation, which means $$$ expenditure. Why bother. Regular gas will still be avaialble for Muscle cars for a long long time.

Also the bigger point to this is that Oil is still going to be needed in these Co2hydrogen powered engines. Not so eco friendly, and not a solution to 100% green output. Blowby is toxic relative to the output of an fully electric car like NIO or Tsla. No comparison.

Last edited by NighthawkSTI; 02-23-2021 at 06:34 PM.
NighthawkSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 06:39 PM   #14
Stanley
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7374
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay, SFCA
Vehicle:
2007 Grandpamobile
BlingBlingBlue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterauto View Post
CNG or natural gas is cleaner than EVs on well to well basis. Most the cabs and many trucks Asia use it because its so cheap. Any vehicle can be easily adapted to use it for few hundred $ and even Diesels run well on CNG. Only disadvantage you need larger fuel tanks.

Other disadvantages:


Requires pressurized tanks/filling stations (the C in CNG)

Less power than gas or diesel from the same engine
Less range


That being said, CNG/RNG has a very good use in trucks taking goods from port to storefront.
Stanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 07:15 PM   #15
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
18 Highlander
Yami XSR

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dex View Post
I think ICE's long term future will most likely be enthusiast/hobby based and companies know this. Thus, creating a cleaner burning fuel is probably a good idea if the tech exists.
This is a really good point.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 07:58 PM   #16
subyski
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 202642
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Centennial, Colorado
Vehicle:
08 Impreza,80Vette
68 Impala, 15 SantaFe

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
No way will this fuel porsche is experimenting with be able to just dump into a late 60's muscle car without mods to the fuel system and carburation, which means $$$ expenditure. Why bother. Regular gas will still be avaialble for Muscle cars for a long long time.
Why not? Porsche has vintage cars that utilize carbs and old fuel injection. Currently, the modern gas available at the pump is the same you put into an old 4 cylinder boxer and a big block V8. Fuel formulations have changed since these cars came out new and inevitable mods/upgrades were needed because of ethenol and no lead.

There was a time when old synthetic oil was not recommended in old engines but things have changed too. Porsche is one of the few brands that supports their classic cars as they even have their own line of classic Porsche oils. There's a whole aftermarket of classic car oils so a whole line of classic car fuel (that burns cleaner) could be a potential market if availability and costs are in check.
subyski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 08:00 PM   #17
NighthawkSTI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 495630
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
If this fuel is flexible and can be used in older vehicles, then I can see appeal in the classic/vintage car market. People are going to have older ICE vehicles for a while and there will be people who will keep ICE collectables.
I agree, but that market will be so small compared to the global population market for EV's, vintage/classic muscle cars will probably just keep using gasoline, ethenol free race gas...etc etc.
NighthawkSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 09:24 PM   #18
White out
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 46277
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
** LP640
575M DMC-12

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
No way will this fuel porsche is experimenting with be able to just dump into a late 60's muscle car without mods to the fuel system and carburation, which means $$$ expenditure. Why bother. Regular gas will still be avaialble for Muscle cars for a long long time.
They said this decades ago when fuel no longer had lead and it would destroy engines. I stopped adding lead substitute to my '60 Corvette 20 years ago as it would be a great excuse to LS swap . . . engine is still kickin'
White out is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 12:01 PM   #19
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: www.testdrivemylife.com
Vehicle:
2020 JEEP / Ascent
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

while I want to believe it, I will remain skeptical. Just like the miracle batteries, this does not raise any eyebrows until its vetted. Try harder Porsche.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 05:19 PM   #20
NighthawkSTI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 495630
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
They said this decades ago when fuel no longer had lead and it would destroy engines. I stopped adding lead substitute to my '60 Corvette 20 years ago as it would be a great excuse to LS swap . . . engine is still kickin'
Thats because back then they didnt have the hindsight to reveal just how well the engines in the 60's were built, and specifically the nickel content in the blocks and heads compared to todays soft metal engine parts. I havent used lead fuel or additive in my Muscle car since the ownership in the late 80's to now. And only in the last few years switched to sunoco race gas over the ethenol laced pump gas.
NighthawkSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 04:05 AM   #21
h3llsp4wn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373546
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NorCal 707 to 916
Vehicle:
2015 wrx limited
crystal black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
I agree, but that market will be so small compared to the global population market for EV's, vintage/classic muscle cars will probably just keep using gasoline, ethenol free race gas...etc etc.
Would hate to see the registration fees on ICE cars after 2035
h3llsp4wn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2021 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.