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Old 11-16-2017, 11:21 AM   #6376
fliz
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Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Sooo wrong thread or no one wants to talk HSA? Or is the poor people thread somewhere else?
I have some more questions that might help make the decision.

What are you current medical expenses?

Which plan are you using (single, family, etc)?

How much money do you have to contribute to the HSA? Just the premium difference? Max it out?

What investment options are available in the HSA?


Does the company provide any automatic deposits into the HSA (for health screening or other lifestyle improvement type activities)?


If you choose the HMO HSA (family plan), you have $960 in deductible difference to use for any medical expenses. That still exposes you to 2K risk in Deductible, then another potential for 3K in co-pays before you reach max out of pocket (which is unlikely unless you have a lot of visits).

But if you have the ability to pay for those out of after-tax money, then you can keep your pre-tax contributions in the HSA, and they grow just like your 401K.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:27 AM   #6377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Sooo wrong thread or no one wants to talk HSA? Or is the poor people thread somewhere else?


Generic advice time. Max out your HSA if you can before any other retirement plans aside from company match programs. You will very likely need the money at some point for medical expenses in your life and this way it’s tax free, and on the off chance you don’t you can still use it like you would a 401K when it’s time to retire.

That is my understanding of the general rule of thumb regarding HSAs.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:35 AM   #6378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fliz View Post
I have some more questions that might help make the decision.

What are you current medical expenses?

Which plan are you using (single, family, etc)?

How much money do you have to contribute to the HSA? Just the premium difference? Max it out?

What investment options are available in the HSA?


Does the company provide any automatic deposits into the HSA (for health screening or other lifestyle improvement type activities)?


If you choose the HMO HSA (family plan), you have $960 in deductible difference to use for any medical expenses. That still exposes you to 2K risk in Deductible, then another potential for 3K in co-pays before you reach max out of pocket (which is unlikely unless you have a lot of visits).

But if you have the ability to pay for those out of after-tax money, then you can keep your pre-tax contributions in the HSA, and they grow just like your 401K.
As of right now, I don't have many if any regularly occurring medical expenses. I am kind of skating on a thin line though because I should always have some emergency medication on hand and I don't right now, nor have I found a monthly maintenance medication helpful so I don't use any. If/when I get a respiratory infection of any kind I typically require a doctor's visit followed by the emergency medication, the maintenance medication, and steroids.

Single.

I don't have to contribute any - my current spreadsheet math assumes maximum contribution for single at $3450.

The HSA is through BenefitWallet and a cursory glance included some standard investment options, though oddly the Vanguard options are NOT Admiral shares for some stupid reason: https://mybenefitwallet.com/CMS/docs...tment_Link.pdf. My employer provides NO additional benefits.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:49 AM   #6379
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Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Insurance enrollment time. ****ty plans all around, but this year we can get high-deductible with HSA. HSA seems nice, but I'm not sure the benefit is there for me right now. What kind of information do you need from me to help me make an informed decision? Plans below; current plan on left and new plans on the right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Sooo wrong thread or no one wants to talk HSA? Or is the poor people thread somewhere else?
More questions:

1) What's your marginal rate?
2) Do you ever use out of network care?
3) Would you be able to max out the HSA and still manage your other retirement savings ok?
4) IIRC you're recently divorced? Would you be covering your kids on this plan or just you?
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:52 AM   #6380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
More questions:

1) What's your marginal rate?
2) Do you ever use out of network care?
3) Would you be able to max out the HSA and still manage your other retirement savings ok?
4) IIRC you're recently divorced? Would you be covering your kids on this plan or just you?
  1. 25%, po' people club.
  2. No, I don't have a doctor I "like" and want to use. I just look for whomever is close by and in-network, but I have a growing list of out-of-network specialists for all sorts of conditions I don't have yet.
  3. I am working under the assumption that I am maxing out the HSA, my Roth, and doing minimum 401K contribution to get maximum match.
  4. No. See above, single.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:58 AM   #6381
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It sounds to me, that if you can afford to max out the HSA and have minimal planned medical expenses, that the HSA plan makes the most sense.

One last point, do you have $1500 in savings to pay for an unexpected hospital visit that might happen before you've funded your HSA?
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:07 PM   #6382
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Originally Posted by fliz View Post
It sounds to me, that if you can afford to max out the HSA and have minimal planned medical expenses, that the HSA plan makes the most sense.

One last point, do you have $1500 in savings to pay for an unexpected hospital visit that might happen before you've funded your HSA?
Yes, I can cover $1500 with my rainy day fund, but as of now it will cover a few months of expenses rather than months 6-8 of expenses PLUS emergency stuff.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:25 PM   #6383
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
New question.

This plan is a 401(a)/403(b)...

Under the contributions section it states:

Employee: 4.5% of base salary up to $127k and +5% over $127k
Employer: 8.5% up to $127k, +13% over $127k.

Edit, I get it now. 401(a) are capped at $55k total contributions. And the max income they'd consider is $270k. So not quite as great as I first thought.
It did sound like a 401(a). Not sure why it'd be paired with a 403(b)--I bet there's also a 403(b)/401(k) option you can do + the mandatory 401(a), a la my situation.

2018 numbers are $128.7k for FICA limit, $275k for IRS annual compensation limit. Using these: Employee contribution is $13,106. Employer contribution is $29,958. So $43,064 total in the 401(a) per year, making the total limit of $55k irrelevant.

The upside of the IRS compensation limit is that compensation beyond this will feel 10% (ex taxes ) richer for the last few (? not few? ) months of the year. Thus the yearly 1-2%er pay cycle: X number of months feeling relatively cash poor due to FICA, then post-FICA, then finally post IRS compensation limit/post 401(a) time, then January and time to rinse and repeat.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:38 PM   #6384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
  1. 25%, po' people club.
  2. No, I don't have a doctor I "like" and want to use. I just look for whomever is close by and in-network, but I have a growing list of out-of-network specialists for all sorts of conditions I don't have yet.
  3. I am working under the assumption that I am maxing out the HSA, my Roth, and doing minimum 401K contribution to get maximum match.
  4. No. See above, single.
Whoops re 4. Thought I saw your name in the OT Divorce Thread.

At 25% and able to max out HSA, plus possible out of network use (not covered at all by the left two plans in your table!) I would 100% go for the rightmost HSA plan.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:38 PM   #6385
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
It did sound like a 401(a). Not sure why it'd be paired with a 403(b)--I bet there's also a 403(b)/401(k) option you can do + the mandatory 401(a), a la my situation.

2018 numbers are $128.7k for FICA limit, $275k for IRS annual compensation limit. Using these: Employee contribution is $13,106. Employer contribution is $29,958. So $43,064 total in the 401(a) per year, making the total limit of $55k irrelevant.

The upside of the IRS compensation limit is that compensation beyond this will feel 10% (ex taxes ) richer for the last few (? not few? ) months of the year. Thus the yearly 1-2%er pay cycle: X number of months feeling relatively cash poor due to FICA, then post-FICA, then finally post IRS compensation limit/post 401(a) time, then January and time to rinse and repeat.
Sorry, should have clarified. The second post was for a different plan/job. The first one is a true 401k, the second a 401(a)/403(b).



"Plan Type 403(b)/401(a): Employee contributions may be pre-tax salary reductions or Roth 403(b) after-tax payroll deductions for Federal Income Tax purposes."

Then it goes on to state under a heading "Voluntary Contributions"..."Allows employees to make contributions on a pre-tax or Roth 403(b) after tax basis).

So it sound like in addition to the mandatory 401, you can contribute 18.5k into the 403(b) (which is not matched).

Last edited by SoapBox; 11-16-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #6386
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Whoops re 4. Thought I saw your name in the OT Divorce Thread.

At 25% and able to max out HSA, plus possible out of network use (not covered at all by the left two plans in your table!) I would 100% go for the rightmost HSA plan.
I did post in the divorce thread, but I am not married or divorced despite the GF's feelings on the matter.

I do not have any plans on acquiring conditions that require out of network treatment and I'm 27 so god help me I shouldn't have anything wrong with me that I haven't caught yet.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #6387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
One of the leaked "pay for billionaire tax cut" proposals was to drastically reduce tax-deferred contribution limits, perhaps to $2,400 annually (as opposed to $18k for those under 50 and $24k for those in the catch-up period).

Some Republican shills wrote a column supporting this, of course: Republicans want to slash tax deductions for your 401(k). That's actually a good idea!

Key quote:



That math seemed very suspect to me so I did my own calculations, which you can play with here if you're bored:



My best guess is that he's comparing $5k pre-tax contributions to a tax-deferred account to $5k post-tax contributions to a Roth. This is not apples to apples, as one must earn $5k * (1 + marginal rate) to get $5k post-tax...

Dishonest pieces of **** is my assessment.



Edit 1: Looking at my Excel chart I realized I counted taxable withdrawals as income, whereas they'd actually be at the (lower) LTCG rate. Makes the math even more lopsided unless I missed something big...

Edit 2: I also didn't account for the standard deduction (or SS). True effective tax rate on withdrawals in retirement would be even lower. Again makes the math even more clear.
I can't see the excel chart at work right now but one of my questions on this proposal:
- Essentially the new plan would move all 401k's to a more Roth 401k type system and your analysis says that is a bad thing for the user. So why do I see a lot of people advocating Roth 401k's instead of a traditional tax deferred 401k?
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:10 PM   #6388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiplemw View Post
I can't see the excel chart at work right now but one of my questions on this proposal:
- Essentially the new plan would move all 401k's to a more Roth 401k type system and your analysis says that is a bad thing for the user. So why do I see a lot of people advocating Roth 401k's instead of a traditional tax deferred 401k?
If it's anything like the example I cited (and hopefully debunked), it's because they're comparing apples to oranges, e.g. the $5k pre-tax money in one hand and $5k post-tax Roth money on the other.

Unless you're in a lower tax bracket now then you'll be in retirement, such as is true for medical residents unless they do a **** job of saving later on, then I don't see the point, really, and certainly not before filling up all tax-deferred spaces.
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:47 PM   #6389
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After nearly 3 weeks, Trans America stopped holding his old 403b hostage.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...betterment.jpg

Finally in shikataganai-Betterment type money.

chris619
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:33 PM   #6390
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Anyone else use Mint and update their Chase account(s) to the new direct access method recently? They apparently have a problem with duplicate accounts showing up.

Right now it's showing I have a current balance on my dozens of Chase cards (! little do they know that I have dozens of unused cards with other vendors in reality...) of nearly $300k.

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Old 11-22-2017, 05:13 PM   #6391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Clip View Post
After nearly 3 weeks, Trans America stopped holding his old 403b hostage.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...betterment.jpg

Finally in shikataganai-Betterment type money.

chris619
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Full_Clip is happy for the lower Betterment fee rate.
according to yahoo, you can retire now, buy a tiny house on a trailer, travel the world and blog about how you were a supersaver and how others should do the same!!!

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Old 11-25-2017, 11:34 AM   #6392
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Since the other thread is about 401k YTD returns, could we discuss projected balances, ages and targets here? You could be as detailed or vague as you want. I found this with a quick Google:

https://www.investopedia.com/article...alance-age.asp

Quote:
By the time you're 30, the company calculates you should have saved half of your annual salary. If you make $50,000 on your 30th birthday, you should have $25,000 banked for retirement. By age 40, you should have twice your annual salary. By age 50, four times your salary; by age 60, six times, and by age 67, eight times. If you reach 67 years old and are making $75,000 per year, you should have $600,000 saved.
Reasonable or nonsense?

Hopefully this doesn't get too "humblebraggy" but I think we could weigh in on if these are reasonable expectations and where we stack up. Personally, I'm 33 and at 2.5x my salary in my 401k. I contribute 12% and have great company matching (which makes up 10% of my account) and a profit sharing plan (which makes up an impressive 24% of my account after 6 years working there). So 66% is due to my own contributions, which I think is quite good.

I'm pretty content that I'm ahead of the game but am still wary of what curveballs life can throw at you. My dad was a scrupulous saver and extraordinarily disciplined and informed investor and was able to retire before 50 and I'm glad he was able to because he died of cancer a few months after hitting 65. That was a bit of a slap in the face of my expectations based on averages/life expectancies and prior family experience of all 4 grandparents living into their 90s. So a tiny part of me went from of "I need to have enough saved for 20+ years of retirement" to "I could die any time and not even have a retirement". I didn't do anything in response to change my 401k or retirement strategies, but it has definitely shifted my long term outlook and approach to life.
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Old 11-25-2017, 11:44 AM   #6393
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I think those rules of thumb are too vague.

Better to project what your savings will amount to in a given year/age, and then see whether that passes muster with the usual Trinity Study 4% safe withdrawal rate. In other words, if you want to retire at age XYZ, make sure you have 25x your desired retirement spending by that age/time.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:02 PM   #6394
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
I think those rules of thumb are too vague.

Better to project what your savings will amount to in a given year/age, and then see whether that passes muster with the usual Trinity Study 4% safe withdrawal rate. In other words, if you want to retire at age XYZ, make sure you have 25x your desired retirement spending by that age/time.
Bingo. The $/age formula isn't helpful for professionals who start earning later or prodigious savers, for example. The tricky part is guessing what future expenses will be. But 25x (? 33x for longer period) annual expenses should cover you regardless of duration of retirement.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:04 PM   #6395
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In other finance related news, I found out that my sister makes somewhere north of 2x of what I make! She also works about 2x the hours, effectively--she was charting from clinic visits nearly 2 weeks beforehand throughout my family's visit to her place on Thanksgiving, has an 1 hr+ each way commute, and works 1 of 4 weekends.

I asked her whether she's ok with her work-life balance, and she said yes. Not sure if she's honest with herself or if she really has priorities way different than what I'd expect. Go figure.

I am ok with my ~52ish hour average weeks (45 hours + 4-5 elective 5 hour shifts per month), q12w call, and short commute even if it means I'll probably never have estate tax issues unlike her...

Last edited by shikataganai; 11-25-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:08 PM   #6396
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That's awful. What does she do?
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:13 PM   #6397
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Partner at a private practice med-onc group. Apparently her only option to cut hours would be go to a job sharing setup, and she doesn't want that for whatever reason (even though it'd still be plenty of money--her husband works, their kids are or will be in public schools, and their house is very reasonable).
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:23 PM   #6398
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Some oncologists make absurd neurosurgery kind of money. Screw that. At some point you're just pissing your life away.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:23 PM   #6399
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Originally Posted by delongedoug View Post
Reasonable or nonsense?
It is a decent starting point for thinking about savings. However, you really have to consider a lot of factors. Marital status, spouse's savings, home ownership, preferred consumption, Social Security expectations, ...

Quote:
I'm pretty content that I'm ahead of the game but am still wary of what curveballs life can throw at you.
Sorry to hear about your dad. My grandfather died in his 40s, so I don't think my dad really expected to live as long as he has. That, in turn, is shaping how I think about saving and retirement.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:31 PM   #6400
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Originally Posted by Integra96 View Post
Some oncologists make absurd neurosurgery kind of money. Screw that. At some point you're just pissing your life away.
I agree. As far as I can tell she has no life outside work, yelling at her kids and sometimes husband at home, and going to a political rally per week.

Ah, life choices. There's variance of opinion about what's optimal between people but objectively her setup sounds quite ****ty save for the money, and what's that good for without time or hobbies?

Edit: Also no vacation. No one to cover her clinic if she's not there, so she works and works.

Last edited by shikataganai; 11-25-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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