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Old 10-16-2019, 04:54 PM   #376
shikataganai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
I've read/ heard that the 5-7 day is a whole-nother group of benefits and reactions.
Yeah, like super loose stools! Extra fun.



As Peter Attia states fairly early on in that mTOR hour and a half interview on High Intensity Health there are a million different permutations of fasting (5 days per year? 1 day per week? etc.) and no one at this point knows the answer of what is optimal. We are extrapolating from data from other organisms at best.
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Old 10-16-2019, 04:57 PM   #377
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Comments / thoughts / questions:

-It's harder to lose weight as you get to the lower percentages.
-Sometimes a dietary "reset" is good. Increase your carbs for a day or two. Drop out of Ketosis and then resume. Some "experts" say that it's better cycle Keto than to stay on it.
-What are your macro ratios? Post them up here.
-Have you tried any prolonged fasting? What is your fasting regimen like? When you say I.F., what does that mean? There's lots of variants which is why I'm asking.

Two important questions:
-How's your sleep pattern?
-How's your stress level recently? Cortisol issues?


Assuming your program is sound: I believe that you may need to mix things up. The body is incredibly adaptable, and also has an amazing ability to become efficient at tasks. You may have a situation where your body has effectively become so efficient with your program, that you're stalled until you make it adapt again.
These were the calcs I've been using as a guide:



This would be an example of what I might eat in a day


For a little while after not dropping weight, I had even dropped my daily calorie count to around 1250-1300/day but that didn't help. I also realized later it was probably counterproductive and likely slowed my metabolism further so I went back up to 1400-1450 calories/day. Moving back up I didn't gain any weight but still sitting in the same spot.
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Old 10-16-2019, 04:59 PM   #378
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adderall!
I mean, everyone is on some kind of stimulant these days, so why not?
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:04 PM   #379
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mks: Not going to affect short term weight loss but dropping that ranch dressing for something not made with vegetable oil (like the canola/rapeseed oil as first ingredient) would probably be good long term.

https://openheart.bmj.com/content/5/2/e000898

Correlation is not causation but there's a plausible mechanism in there, too...
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:56 PM   #380
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Not eating is making me pretty ****ing grumpy.
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Old 10-16-2019, 06:57 PM   #381
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Not eating is making me pretty ****ing grumpy.


Carb/ sugar withdrawal? I can’t recall if your low carb already but grumpyness usually goes with the carb heavy eaters. Not many low carb people report the grouchies.
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:02 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masskillingspree View Post
These were the calcs I've been using as a guide:







This would be an example of what I might eat in a day





For a little while after not dropping weight, I had even dropped my daily calorie count to around 1250-1300/day but that didn't help. I also realized later it was probably counterproductive and likely slowed my metabolism further so I went back up to 1400-1450 calories/day. Moving back up I didn't gain any weight but still sitting in the same spot.


I’d suggest these two things re your intake:

Lower your net carbs to 30. Looks like you’re using fiber as a crutch.

Drop your protein down a bit. I don’t think you need that shake... that’s one thing.



If it were me I might do them independently and see what happens because I’m a nerd. But I can also test glucose and keytones. You want to figure this out faster or more effectively, get the keto mojo meter. Do you have a glucometer?

But to get you back in this thing... just make both adjustments at once.
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:49 PM   #383
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I had one of those InBody machine thingies on Monday, not sure how accurate they are.



Lean body mass 133.2 lbs, Body fat mass 53.8, BMI 27.6, body fat 28.8%, R arm 7.12 (3.7 fat), L arm 6.99 (3.7 fat), R leg 21.34 (7.9 fat), L leg 21.05 (7.9 fat), trunk fat 27.8, visceral fat 9, ECW/TBW 0.377.

The InBody FAQ claims 98% accuracy compared to DEXA, fwiw.

Your results highlight why this kind of testing is important. When I got tested pre-fasting my body fat was 1.7% higher than you, but my BMI was over 10 points higher! (This due to 42 lbs more lean mass for me.)

/me was fat-less fat using the skinny-fat analogy
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:49 PM   #384
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Carb/ sugar withdrawal? I can’t recall if your low carb already but grumpyness usually goes with the carb heavy eaters. Not many low carb people report the grouchies.
Eh, I wouldn't say I'm low carb, but I do make a conscious effort to eat less carbs. That being said, I did eat a bunch of garbage on Monday night and then had bacon, egg and cheese biscuits for breakfast yesterday morning - so my last two feedings were carb heavy.
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:51 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
I'd suggest these two things re your intake:

Lower your net carbs to 30. Looks like you're using fiber as a crutch.

Drop your protein down a bit. I don't think you need that shake... that's one thing.



If it were me I might do them independently and see what happens because I'm a nerd. But I can also test glucose and keytones. You want to figure this out faster or more effectively, get the keto mojo meter. Do you have a glucometer?

But to get you back in this thing... just make both adjustments at once.
My net carbs in that example is 19. The fiber is just because it makes my poops require little wiping, which is nice.
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:26 PM   #386
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Default Intermittent and extended fasting thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by masskillingspree View Post
My net carbs in that example is 19. The fiber is just because it makes my poops require little wiping, which is nice.


I meant total carbs. Your at about 40. Drop it to 30. The weight loss phase of Keto is different for everyone and that line is obscure.

Now if you’re taking that fiber as a supplement, you SHOULD NOT log it. And that identifies your issue clearly. Too many carbs. Supplemental fiber isn’t the same as the fiber in food naturally. Natural fiber is bound to the carbohydrate which is what makes the carb indigestible.

Edit:

I just looked again, and you’re not eating any veggies hardly. You should be getting your fiber from veggies man! Not only that, but you are not getting all the vitamins you need. 4-8 servings of veggies. Slather them in butter and salt and enjoy. The green, above ground cruciferous stuff is what you need. Broccoli and cauliflower are the two super foods you should be eating for sure.

Drop your carbs. Lose the fiber. Eat veggies.

Last edited by bdubblu; 10-16-2019 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:55 AM   #387
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I’m more or less steadily losing weight. Yet I don’t eat much plant based food at all, but when I do eat it I try to make it broccoli, asparagus, Brussels sprouts: dark greens.

I just throw in a longer fast if I get stuck in a rut for more than a few days.

/me likes ribeyes
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:56 AM   #388
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Default Intermittent and extended fasting thread

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4982776/

Looked this up for another forum where the question was whether 12 hours had a benefit.

Weak evidence as via questionnaire thus likely recall bias, but for their question (breast cancer) their cut point for length of fasting to show a benefit was at 13 hours. Benefits increased with longer fasts—nice dose-response there.




Edit: and another overview paper for good measure:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...68163716302513

Last edited by shikataganai; 10-17-2019 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:40 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4982776/

Looked this up for another forum where the question was whether 12 hours had a benefit.

Weak evidence as via questionnaire thus likely recall bias, but for their question (breast cancer) their cut point for length of fasting to show a benefit was at 13 hours. Benefits increased with longer fasts—nice dose-response there.




Edit: and another overview paper for good measure:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...68163716302513

A little vid to expand this topic a little. 12 hours doesn't seem to do much. But 16 seems to be where it all starts revving up.

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Old 10-17-2019, 01:52 PM   #390
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I did a 36 hour fast from Tues morning to Wed night, now I'm going to go 24 hours from Thurs morning to Fri morning.

I'm 5'9" and was 180lbs on Monday afternoon, weighed myself this morning at 176. Four pounds in 4 days. I'm fairly sedentary, I sit in a chair for 8 hours a day. I sometimes go to the gym, sometimes go hiking. I think my body just naturally responds quickly to changes I make.
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Old 10-18-2019, 09:57 AM   #391
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Old 10-18-2019, 02:29 PM   #392
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Just finished a 40.5 hour one!!

It was okay, except between 24-28 I was completely mentally obsessed with food. Slept okay, woke up with a growling stomach. Was able to focus okay at work, though, and broke the fast with a pretty healthy salad that had meat and avocado in it.

Looked in the mirror... I'm still not a BAMF, it isn't working.

It is shocking to me to think that I had never in my life gone that long without food, and so many people on the planet are literally starving. We are so burdened by easy and cheap calories, it's ridiculous.
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Old 10-18-2019, 03:23 PM   #393
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Yeah this is a pretty sound video. Seems current.

That's the thing to be careful about as this relatively new field unfolds. Some of these videos will become outdated. I've already seen older information that's been debunked. So when we look these up... it's always best to look at the dates of the videos, studies, papers.
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Old 10-18-2019, 03:45 PM   #394
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Just finished a 40.5 hour one!!

It was okay, except between 24-28 I was completely mentally obsessed with food. Slept okay, woke up with a growling stomach. Was able to focus okay at work, though, and broke the fast with a pretty healthy salad that had meat and avocado in it.

Looked in the mirror... I'm still not a BAMF, it isn't working.

It is shocking to me to think that I had never in my life gone that long without food, and so many people on the planet are literally starving. We are so burdened by easy and cheap calories, it's ridiculous.
I am currently sitting at 41 hours fasted. Planning on cooking steak and veggies for dinner tonight on the BBQ but tempted to break my fast sometime this afternoon with the salami and cheese snacks I just bought...

In other news I was at 242.8 this morning which puts me down ~27 pounds since beginning of September. Current goal is <220 in however long it takes me to get there.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:01 PM   #395
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I am currently sitting at 41 hours fasted. Planning on cooking steak and veggies for dinner tonight on the BBQ but tempted to break my fast sometime this afternoon with the salami and cheese snacks I just bought...

In other news I was at 242.8 this morning which puts me down ~27 pounds since beginning of September. Current goal is <220 in however long it takes me to get there.
Nice man! You're crushing it.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:24 PM   #396
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Nice man! You're crushing it.
Appreciate the support. Easier to lose more weight when I have a lot to lose!

However, this is the first time in my adult life that I have consistently been losing weight. It was never a rapid increase, but a gradual one of 10 pounds a year or so. Happy to be going the other way and actually have confidence that I can reach my goal.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:29 PM   #397
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That gradual weight gain is typical, and is totally in keeping with insulin resistance.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:02 PM   #398
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Second a series of 2 videos:


They found that coffee + MCT oil actually increases ketone levels! Most other additives including black coffee by itself (video 1) and coffee + coconut oil are basically neutral, and coffee + ghee appeared to inhibit ketosis.

Related to their techniques: I’m still not sold on ketone + glucose monitoring for my own uses, because I’m not sure how it’d cause me to change much. Maybe if I hit an extended plateau.

Based off of these data I think it might be reasonable for me to add a bit of MCT oil to my morning coffee when on routine/normal-length (14-24 hour) fasts. Its addition might kill autophagy but might actually kickstart ketosis.

For longer fasts (36-96? hours) I would avoid coffee + MCT after the first morning so as to not disrupt the autophagy effects that ramp up after 24 hours.
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Old 10-20-2019, 10:34 AM   #399
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Default Intermittent and extended fasting thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Second a series of 2 videos:

https://youtu.be/d87lR4_mmg4

They found that coffee + MCT oil actually increases ketone levels! Most other additives including black coffee by itself (video 1) and coffee + coconut oil are basically neutral, and coffee + ghee appeared to inhibit ketosis.

Related to their techniques: I’m still not sold on ketone + glucose monitoring for my own uses, because I’m not sure how it’d cause me to change much. Maybe if I hit an extended plateau.

Based off of these data I think it might be reasonable for me to add a bit of MCT oil to my morning coffee when on routine/normal-length (14-24 hour) fasts. Its addition might kill autophagy but might actually kickstart ketosis.

For longer fasts (36-96? hours) I would avoid coffee + MCT after the first morning so as to not disrupt the autophagy effects that ramp up after 24 hours.

For clarification: They do supply fats to the gut for digestion, which means your body can start producing keytones faster more readily. MCT (medium chain triglycerides) are faster processing, and the body can introduce them quickly. So that’s why they are popular.

Then add coffee and it’s an adrenal spike that makes things happen faster. That’s kind of an obvious result.

I am surprised about ghee, because mostly is is comprised of a short chain, which means it also processes quickly. There’s some other fats in there and so I’m wondering two things: is it a result of the other fats or makeup of the ghee, OR did they do bad testing?


Two things about this whole ball of wax I want to bring up:

First, the only way this really helps/ works is if you’re already in a low carb state. Low enough that you’d be in ketosis anyway. So adding a high fat count to your system really more or less changes your GKI index. It may be the thing that tips the scale. If you’re not low carb, a bunch of fat isn’t going to make you go into ketosis. Now I’m not saying this is your situation Shika, but I’m writing this for clarification for others.

Second, and this happened to someone I’m helping out: too much exogenous fat, means you STOP fat burning. In ketosis, your body turns to fat stores for energy. If you introduce it by way of ghee or mct, you’re body doesn’t need to turn to fat stores. The person I’m helping out told me they had stopped losing weight despite adding boot camp to their exercise routine. After some digging, I found out she was taking BHB before workouts. That meant her body was getting fuel from the supplement. So there is an element of balancing the fat so you don’t provide too much when it comes to the weight loss phases.

Lastly, I agree Shika: for people who are utilizing fasting as the primary tool, testing isn’t really that necessary. Fasting works no matter what. BUT testing does allow you to do MORE with your diet and body to get better results. The thing I find with keto is that it’s more complicated. Fasting is easy. You just don’t eat. Done. Success. So it’s up to you... you can keep it easy, or dive into it more with testing.

Last edited by bdubblu; 10-20-2019 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:54 AM   #400
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I saw this article recently about a small study done on whether you should exercise before or after breakfast.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/18/healt...ess/index.html

The men who exercised after breakfast burned more fat but didn't lose more weight.

I also just saw this article about what happens when our bodies burn fat. I didn't know much about the whole process so this was interesting to me.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/w...=pocket-newtab
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