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Old 01-15-2018, 12:07 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwrx86 View Post
Actually you do. Every heard of italian tune-up?
High heat, high pressure, and high rpm is the only way.
simply driving on the highway at 75 will run the engine hot enough to keep it clean.

people that get sludgy engines get them because they drive 1.5 miles at a time at 20% throttle or less and never get the engine hot

like the ads you see selling grandma's 2003 camry with 'only' 13,000 miles on it, and then they state how it was only used once a week to go 1/2 mile to and from the store.

For some reason people think that's a good selling point. I wouldn't touch a car like that with a 10' pole.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
simply driving on the highway at 75 will run the engine hot enough to keep it clean.

people that get sludgy engines get them because they drive 1.5 miles at a time at 20% throttle or less and never get the engine hot

like the ads you see selling grandma's 2003 camry with 'only' 13,000 miles on it, and then they state how it was only used once a week to go 1/2 mile to and from the store.

For some reason people think that's a good selling point. I wouldn't touch a car like that with a 10' pole.
Unless you're a grandma that only goes to church or the store...



Yes, I sorta agree with you on this one......

High revs on an older engine typically means you crash the rings into the wear ring at the top of the cylinders, thus killing combustion pressure.
Sorta forget the water in the oil or other bits that want some heat now and then.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:45 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Subluv View Post
I was wondering how much is a typical oil consumption rate I recently bought a new 2017 2.5l and im burning a lot of oil. My dealer says its normal
How often are you boosting? These cars get a lot of blowby, increases as boost goes up. Even with AOS, SOME people still see blow by. I add a bit of oil on my engine every other fuel up, but I have forged internals now.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
simply driving on the highway at 75 will run the engine hot enough to keep it clean.

people that get sludgy engines get them because they drive 1.5 miles at a time at 20% throttle or less and never get the engine hot

like the ads you see selling grandma's 2003 camry with 'only' 13,000 miles on it, and then they state how it was only used once a week to go 1/2 mile to and from the store.

For some reason people think that's a good selling point. I wouldn't touch a car like that with a 10' pole.
Nope 75mph is not enough hot.
You need to at least redline full throttle through 2 - 3 gears. or if automatic. full throttle a couple times from 35 - 80mph. It's a combination of heat and pressure. Just heat is not enough, you need pressure to expand the rings and blow the carbon out of the exhausts. This is why sometimes you see a cloud of black smoke when a car accelerate. New engines once out of breaking in millage should exercise full throttle before 2000 miles and redline before 3000 miles then change the oil.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Unless you're a grandma that only goes to church or the store...



Yes, I sorta agree with you on this one......

High revs on an older engine typically means you crash the rings into the wear ring at the top of the cylinders, thus killing combustion pressure.
Sorta forget the water in the oil or other bits that want some heat now and then.
Unless it's never been taken care of. I drive the nuts of cars with more than 130k miles never had issues.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwrx86 View Post
Nope 75mph is not enough hot.
You need to at least redline full throttle through 2 - 3 gears. or if automatic. full throttle a couple times from 35 - 80mph. It's a combination of heat and pressure. Just heat is not enough, you need pressure to expand the rings and blow the carbon out of the exhausts. This is why sometimes you see a cloud of black smoke when a car accelerate. New engines once out of breaking in millage should exercise full throttle before 2000 miles and redline before 3000 miles then change the oil.
If you're going to completely go against conventional wisdom and common sense you're going to need at least some sort of empirical basis here.

Care to show your sources?
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:16 PM   #32
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The black smoke from the exhaust under heavy load is excess fuel from an "accelerator pump" feature common to most EFI management systems. It is not carbon from the combustion chamber or rings. Carbon is an element and cannot be broken down. Only it's bond can be broken with what it's adhering to. And that's nowhere near as simple as an "Italian tune up." Getting carbon that hot will cause hot spots leading to runaway pre-ignition.
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Old 01-16-2018, 06:12 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by jasonwrx86 View Post
Nope 75mph is not enough hot.
You need to at least redline full throttle through 2 - 3 gears. or if automatic. full throttle a couple times from 35 - 80mph. It's a combination of heat and pressure. Just heat is not enough, you need pressure to expand the rings and blow the carbon out of the exhausts. This is why sometimes you see a cloud of black smoke when a car accelerate. New engines once out of breaking in millage should exercise full throttle before 2000 miles and redline before 3000 miles then change the oil.
uhhhh, NO, wrong. Suggesting you need to redline a motor regularly to keep it in good condition is downright ludicrous
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:39 AM   #34
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Actually it's quite commonplace. I get that as an explanation on work orders all the time. In addition to hearing bikes bouncing offa the rev limiter when they leave after I fix it once. On a cold engine. Keep it up guys I need the money.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:08 AM   #35
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uhhhh, NO, wrong. Suggesting you need to redline a motor regularly to keep it in good condition is downright ludicrous
It's a very good way to kill a motor in short order
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:20 AM   #36
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These are not garbage engines with the tolerances of a 55 year old ak47. Things have changed. Thinking you need to redline anything to "seat" stuff is utter garbage.

Some engines have even tighter tolerances than this one (some of the bmw's come to mind).

I mean you are more than welcome to do whatever it is you want to your engine, but I dont see a single manufacturer recommending a redline break in. "But mister Abismo doesnt that mean they are just trying to cover their ass during the warranty?". Lol ok yeah maybe. What is the simpler answer?

There is some grand conspiracy that every manufacturer of a high performance car wants you to do a not insane breakin to just cover their own asses.

Or.

This is what the engineers have figured out works best for 99% of use cases for these engines.

Are there other breakin methodologies that work, im sure there is, however most of them will never apply to the vast majority of cars out there.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:02 AM   #37
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I'm waiting for the thread where somebody takes the position that you have to do at least six 5500 rpm launches before hitting 1000 miles or you will glaze your cylinder walls and ruin the rod bearings by 'babying' them.
Afterwards you dump the oil, then add an oil/sand mixture to finish the ring seating.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:26 PM   #38
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See what consumption is after five or six oil changes, if it's not leaking on the ground or smoking out the back, you're not going to lose enough oil to damage the engine between scheduled changes. If the amount being burned is still higher than the oil consumption test claims is "excessive", you will still be in warranty at that time. This is assuming you don't let the car sit most of the time. You can do an oil consumption test on your own. Just take a fresh quart and add some to bring it back up to full right before an oil change. You can see how much has been lost over the mileage driven.

The one detail being left out here is how the vehicle was pdi'ed, the person doing the initial test drive could have beat the piss out of it and the owner nor the company will never know if that contributed to its issues.
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:40 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
If you're going to completely go against conventional wisdom and common sense you're going to need at least some sort of empirical basis here.

Care to show your sources?
If the engine is not designed to be used at high rpm, why even put the redline here. Just cap the redline to 4000 if that's all you ever gonna use.
It's pretty common for vehicles that burns oil to reduce or even stop burning oil after doing "italian tune up".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tramp View Post
The black smoke from the exhaust under heavy load is excess fuel from an "accelerator pump" feature common to most EFI management systems. It is not carbon from the combustion chamber or rings. Carbon is an element and cannot be broken down. Only it's bond can be broken with what it's adhering to. And that's nowhere near as simple as an "Italian tune up." Getting carbon that hot will cause hot spots leading to runaway pre-ignition.
None of my vehicles have black smoke when I floor it. Most black smoke you see is the carbon build up collecting on the inside of the exhaust piping and sometimes on the valves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
uhhhh, NO, wrong. Suggesting you need to redline a motor regularly to keep it in good condition is downright ludicrous
Not really. Most high performance engines are encouraged to run to the redline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
It's a very good way to kill a motor in short order
If it will break it will break, if it won't it won't. Most engine damages are caused by either bad design of faulty assembly.
If redlining once a day or once a week is gonna kill the engine, man we are gonna have tons of broken engines at the track days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
I'm waiting for the thread where somebody takes the position that you have to do at least six 5500 rpm launches before hitting 1000 miles or you will glaze your cylinder walls and ruin the rod bearings by 'babying' them.
Afterwards you dump the oil, then add an oil/sand mixture to finish the ring seating.
Never heard of break in oil? There is a fine line for breaking in. Babying and lugging an engine is worse than using all the rpms.

Last edited by jasonwrx86; 01-17-2018 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:20 AM   #40
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Never heard of break in oil? There is a fine line for breaking in. Babying and lugging an engine is worse than using all the rpms.
That's almost the 1st smart thing you have said.
Lugging an engine is bad.

Define "babying" in your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwrx86
If it will break it will break, if it won't it won't. Most engine damages are caused by either bad design of faulty assembly.
This is a totally unqualified statement and shows a complete lack of knowledge.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:46 AM   #41
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Never heard of break in oil? There is a fine line for breaking in. Babying and lugging an engine is worse than using all the rpms.
this is how insane theories like the 'hard break in/non break in' get started.

like samari said, define 'babying' for us.

Because you are right, however it depends on the context.
Getting a new engine and idling it for it's first 4 hours is bad.

Next thing you know, people try and make the case that if you don't go WOT up to redline within the first 15 minutes of operation you have junked the motor.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:55 AM   #42
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That's almost the 1st smart thing you have said.
Lugging an engine is bad.

Define "babying" in your opinion.


This is a totally unqualified statement and shows a complete lack of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
this is how insane theories like the 'hard break in/non break in' get started.

like samari said, define 'babying' for us.

Because you are right, however it depends on the context.
Getting a new engine and idling it for it's first 4 hours is bad.

Next thing you know, people try and make the case that if you don't go WOT up to redline within the first 15 minutes of operation you have junked the motor.
Babying an engine? Never go pass 3000rpm. A lot of low rpm high load conditions.
Any engine should be worked up to it's full output once a while. Use it or lose it.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:55 PM   #43
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Given the type of forum this is, why are you automatically presuming almost, if not everyone here, never drives their cars above 3000 RPM?

That premise is absolutely ridiculous.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:10 PM   #44
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If the engine is not designed to be used at high rpm, why even put the redline here. Just cap the redline to 4000 if that's all you ever gonna use.
It's pretty common for vehicles that burns oil to reduce or even stop burning oil after doing "italian tune up".
Sorry. Maybe you misunderstood what I asked for. Because nowhere in my post did I mention anything about what you responded too.

I'm asking what factual, scientific, empirical evidence you are basing this assumption off.

These specific claims. Do you have ANY sort of empirical evidence to back any of this up? Anything at all?

"Nope 75mph is not enough hot.
You need to at least redline full throttle through 2 - 3 gears. or if automatic. full throttle a couple times from 35 - 80mph. It's a combination of heat and pressure. Just heat is not enough, you need pressure to expand the rings and blow the carbon out of the exhausts. This is why sometimes you see a cloud of black smoke when a car accelerate. New engines once out of breaking in millage should exercise full throttle before 2000 miles and redline before 3000 miles then change the oil."

"Most engine damages are caused by either bad design of faulty assembly."

"Babying and lugging an engine is worse than using all the rpms."

"Most black smoke you see is the carbon build up collecting on the inside of the exhaust piping and sometimes on the valves."

"Babying an engine really is not a good thing. You think you are preserving the engine but what you are doing is allowing carbon to build up and gets wedged in between the piston rings and now allowing the rings to seal properly. Also piston rings never had the chance to expand and contract letting these carbon deposits out. Over time you have a stuck ring, now it starts letting oil pass though which just makes things ever worse. Also carbon can build up in the cats causing excessive back pressure and that can cause even more issues like excessive cylinder temperature. My WRX does not burn noticeable amount because I pretty much red line her once a day once it's fully warmed up."

Last edited by GlarryHoodDIT; 01-17-2018 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:26 PM   #45
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These specific claims. Do you have ANY sort of empirical evidence to back any of this up? Anything at all?
^that would be a no
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:42 PM   #46
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jasonwrx86 You will gain credibility should you choose to address GlarryHoodDIT's question. Emprical.......look it up. Claims are a used car salesman's tool.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:15 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Sorry. Maybe you misunderstood what I asked for. Because nowhere in my post did I mention anything about what you responded too.

I'm asking what factual, scientific, empirical evidence you are basing this assumption off.

These specific claims. Do you have ANY sort of empirical evidence to back any of this up? Anything at all?
Just google italian tune-up and see people's experience on how to make an oil burning engine to reduce even stop burning oil by doing some highway pulls.
A warmed up engine when in working order will not damage from full throttle pulls to the redline.
And yes, most engine failures are happened from design faults within it's design specification. Of course if you modify an engine, it will wear out much quicker. We are talking about stock engine failures.
Especially with WRX's given how rich these engines run because of turbo, engine is making a lot of carbon.
I used to own a rotary engine and those who babied the car all had premature failure when carbon is building up on the apex seals which became stuck and fail to seal the cambers. On a rotary you need to redline a day to keep carbon away.
Most high power performance engines have under sized rings to allow some oil to be burned because those engines are design to be run at high heat conditions. When using under normal conditions they burn oil and if you don't run these engines hard once a while, you will get build up inside the engine.
Like I said if Subaru thinks the engine will damage by running at high rpm, they wouldn't have put the redline there.

As for lugging an engine yes, when you lug an engine your rods experience much longer forces where the oil flow is very slow which means the film strength is not enough to handle the force.

Babying an engine causes the engine to never run hot enough and not enough pressure to blow out the carbon build up in the turbos and cats. When they become so carboned up, you start to have excessive wear.

Last edited by jasonwrx86; 01-17-2018 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:54 AM   #48
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On a rotary you need to redline a day to keep carbon away.
ok, so on a rotary you need a redline a day to keep the carbon away.
So I'm assuming you think a piston engine needs a redline on a weekly basis right?
So for a factory engine 6500 ish?
But if it's a built engine that can handle 8500 then you need 8500 to keep carbon away?
If you then take that same built engine and lighten the reciprocating assembly and now it can handle 9800 then you need to hit 9800 weekly for the carbon removal process?

Fun fact: My STI now has 52,000 miles on it and burns not a drop of oil in 5000 miles and I've never revved it past 5700 to date, so I'm a solid 1000 rpm's below redline.

According to your theory, at what mileage am I going to experience oil consumption do to my driving habits?
Must I wait for 6 figure mileage before I need to redline it weekly to keep it from burning oil?
Just curious as I would like to plan ahead.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:26 AM   #49
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ok, so on a rotary you need a redline a day to keep the carbon away.
So I'm assuming you think a piston engine needs a redline on a weekly basis right?
So for a factory engine 6500 ish?
But if it's a built engine that can handle 8500 then you need 8500 to keep carbon away?
If you then take that same built engine and lighten the reciprocating assembly and now it can handle 9800 then you need to hit 9800 weekly for the carbon removal process?

Fun fact: My STI now has 52,000 miles on it and burns not a drop of oil in 5000 miles and I've never revved it past 5700 to date, so I'm a solid 1000 rpm's below redline.

According to your theory, at what mileage am I going to experience oil consumption do to my driving habits?
Must I wait for 6 figure mileage before I need to redline it weekly to keep it from burning oil?
Just curious as I would like to plan ahead.
Redline a day keeps carbon away is just an expression. It means one should take the engine to it's full horsepower rating once awhile.
While a piston engine is less likely to experience as much carbon build up as possible compare to a rotary engine, it's still a good idea to open her up once a while because the carbon might not be in the cylinders but it can be on other items like cats and o2 sensors.
If you have done full throttle in gear acceleration close to its maximum output then you are fine.
After all why buy a high performance car and never drive at it's designed power output?
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:45 AM   #50
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Empirical and anecdotal are very different things. And you supply the latter. Youtube,Google???? Try beginning a reply with "SAE paper #---- states......" or "my experience tuning."

To it's full horsepower rating?????? What does that even mean?

BTW soot and carbon are not the same. One can contain the other and as stated earlier the other is an element.

Prove the italian tune up doesn't work...........hmmmmm........would an EFI motorcycle with about 10K miles suit you? I'll be tuning a 2016 Harley early next week and can perform a loaded dyno "Italian Tune Up" w/before and after hp/torque readings same vehicle same day same dyno.
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