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Old 01-13-2020, 11:26 AM   #51
Pre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
I'm not saying it's a bad system. We just haven't seen it put to use in one of their performance vehicles yet. I'm sure Honda can do great things with it, but it's still front biased. Active torque vectoring is great.

From what I've read:
  • Up to 90% of power is initially & primarily directed to the front wheels.
  • Under hard acceleration, up to 45% of power can be directed to the rear wheels to reduce wheelspin and improve traction.
  • During hard cornering, up to 70% can be sent to the rear. Of that, 100% can be directed to the rear outside wheel.
Hopefully the Acura Type S concept comes to life and is a test bed for it. But that's Honda very far from their roots. But it sells cars.
Your numbers are off here. The stuff you are quoting is the base AWD system on the CRV. Not SH-AWD or IVTM4.

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Old 01-14-2020, 05:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
The R styling is a little too much for me, but I am late 40's so probably not their target demographic.

Having said that I don't mind Honda taking some styling chances and trying to do something different. I have driven one once and I was very impressed with the overall package, it's a great little daily driver. And in person I liked it more than in the pictures.

My wife would never drive it though, way too boy racer.
Toyota is Going after CTR customers. Spy shots lol







She’s got side pipes too

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Old 01-14-2020, 11:46 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Your numbers are off here. The stuff you are quoting is the base AWD system on the CRV. Not SH-AWD or IVTM4.
I sourced my numbers from Acura's website for SH-AWD.

https://www.acura.com/tlx/modals/sup...ll-wheel-drive

https://www.motortrend.com/news/what...toring-system/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acura
Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD)

Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) is the ultimate sport handling choice for the TLX. This available sophisticated system boosts high-performance dry-road handling while providing the same all-weather advantages of conventional all-wheel drive. By continuously directing engine power to match weight distribution, available traction, driver input and other conditions, SH-AWD provides seamless power transitions and liberating agility. The sensation delivered by such high-performance cornering simply cannot be matched by front, rear or conventional all-wheel drive systems.
  • The system continuously determines the optimal level of power distribution between the front and rear wheelsand between the rear wheels individually based on a continuous analysis of wheel speed, steering angle, lateral G-force and yaw rate.
  • To greatly improve fuel efficiency, up to 90% of the power is sent to the front wheels when cruising in a straight line.
  • As weight shifts to the rear during hard acceleration, the SH-AWD system transfers up to 45% of engine power to the rear wheels and takes full advantage of additional, available traction.
  • On a curve under hard acceleration, the TLX feels firmly planted, because 70% of effective torque can be directed to the rear wheels. And all of that torque can be applied exclusively to the outside wheel, which improves cornering ability by allocating power where the weight has shifted.
  • SH-AWD on the TLX even further reduces understeer and increases stability by revolving the outside rear wheel up to 2.7% faster than the other wheels, helping rotate the vehicle through the turn.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:32 PM   #54
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The rear wing looks like it came from a different car and doesn't fit the design language well. Kinda like back when it was popular for people to stick GD STI whale tales, on integras, civics, neons, etc.

I think it would be much better looking as a true hatchback, with integrated spoiler over the hatch instead of a liftback (that they for some reason call a hatchback)with a tacked on spoiler. Would be much more useful as well.
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:43 PM   #55
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If Honda made an Accord Type R would it look as stupid? Arguably the majority of same demographic of people would be buying either car. The Civic Si doesn't look as dumb as the CTR and the demos on that car are likely younger age and income group.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:30 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by AVANTI R5 View Post
Toyota is Going after CTR customers. Spy shots lol







Shes got side pipes too

Hahhhhaaaaa, I was just going to post some stupid pics like these. I'm laughing thinking about what these poor pipe loving buggers are going to do when ICE cars are gone

All it need snow is the stance. Gotta put 30 degrees of camber in those wheels!
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:44 PM   #57
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Hahhhhaaaaa, I was just going to post some stupid pics like these. I'm laughing thinking about what these poor pipe loving buggers are going to do when ICE cars are gone

All it need snow is the stance. Gotta put 30 degrees of camber in those wheels!
ICE cars will still be around 50 years from now.
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:28 PM   #58
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I'm glad I got a 2019, Honda Sensing is a PITA to deal with if you crack a windshield - asking about a "calibration fee" ($600). Yeah, no thanks.

New changes are cool, overall, I like the two piece rotors!
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:13 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by SatinWhitePearl View Post
I'm glad I got a 2019, Honda Sensing is a PITA to deal with if you crack a windshield - asking about a "calibration fee" ($600). Yeah, no thanks.

New changes are cool, overall, I like the two piece rotors!
Yeah I guess I will get those when the time comes to replace the rotors and there are no cheaper 2 piece alternatives.
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by SatinWhitePearl View Post
I'm glad I got a 2019, Honda Sensing is a PITA to deal with if you crack a windshield - asking about a "calibration fee" ($600). Yeah, no thanks.

New changes are cool, overall, I like the two piece rotors!
There's this thing that auto insurance companies offer called glass coverage. Cost me a $300 deductible to have VW change the glass on my old Golf R which would have cost over $800 otherwise.
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:00 PM   #61
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There's this thing that auto insurance companies offer called glass coverage. Cost me a $300 deductible to have VW change the glass on my old Golf R which would have cost over $800 otherwise.
I'm a broker, so I know exactly what coverage you're talking about, but filing a claim and having to deal with it for 3 years (and pay for it) isn't any fun.

Yeah man, OEM glass is money. I wouldn't put anything but OEM glass on any car these days!

Edit: How do you like the X3M man?
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:49 AM   #62
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Im bored of my 2015 wrx (stage 2 the last 3 years) and was hoping to see a new STi at the auto show. I really dont want to own my car another year, as it has quite a few thing that need to be maintenanced/replaced. I dont want to spend the money just to get rid of it shortly after. The CTR is on my short list of cars. Will it be another year before the gen STi comes out you think? I hate the thought of going back to fwd but there just aren't many options to pick from in this price range. Never liked the Golfs.

Last edited by h3llsp4wn; 01-16-2020 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by h3llsp4wn View Post
Im bored of my 2015 wrx (stage 2 the last 3 years) and was hoping to see a new STi at the auto show. I really dont want to own my car another year, as it has quite a few thing that need to be maintenanced/replaced. I dont want to spend the money just to get rid of it shortly after. The CTR is on my short list of cars. Will it be another year before the gen STi comes out you think? I hate the thought of going back to fwd but there just aren't many options to pick from in this price range. Never liked the Golfs.
Series.White WRX? It's a nice upgrade with the Recaros, Brembos, Bilsteins, LED steering responsive headlights, LED fogs, Push button start, Apple CarPlay/Android Auto, and all of the other changes that came with the '18 refresh.

Of course you would still need the standard upgrades to improve the driving experience.. flex fuel tune, shifter bushing, shift stop, group n trans mount, steering dampener/sti steering joint, some better tires like PS4S, etc.

Otherwise, my guess is we won't see the next gen STI until MY22. It's still an unknown as to what we'll receive and I like to avoid purchasing the first MY of a new generation.

Edit: There's also the Veloster N, but it's also FWD and more of a "budget" option. I'm not a fan of the interior or 3 door setup. But it sounds great and seems to have raving reviews in terms of fun factor. Or even a Civic Si if you don't want to spent CTR money on FWD.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 01-16-2020 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 01-16-2020, 01:45 PM   #64
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The Type R is an amazing car, its exceptionally agile and will absolutely crush a WRX or STi in the straights, they're considerably lighter and making closer to 300whp stock with a better powerband.

With all that said, I chose my STi a week ago over one, because the Honda just can't get the power down, wheelspin is a constant thing in that car, all of 1st, 2nd, i've heard on cold pavement wheelspin can crop up in 3rd gear as well. I had a Mazdaspeed 3 years ago and it was also a great car but again the wheelspin get's really old, especially pulling out into traffic from a stop, and forget having any traction in the rain, ever.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:29 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SatinWhitePearl View Post
I'm a broker, so I know exactly what coverage you're talking about, but filing a claim and having to deal with it for 3 years (and pay for it) isn't any fun.

Yeah man, OEM glass is money. I wouldn't put anything but OEM glass on any car these days!

Edit: How do you like the X3M man?
I'm liking it so far but I'm in the break-in period and we are having near record cold temps in the NW so not much opportunity for spirited driving. I've always been a car guy never owning a pickup truck or SUV (wife gets those) so it's a bit of a change sitting up high and being in a bigger vehicle. As fast and sporty as this is I don't know if it's a replacement for driving a well sorted car but it's a decent compromise. I think anyone interested in one of these should spend a little time in one prior to purchasing as even in comfort mode the ride is very firm and may not be for everyone.
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:14 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by sluflyer06 View Post
[...]With all that said, I chose my STi a week ago over one, because the Honda just can't get the power down, wheelspin is a constant thing in that car, all of 1st, 2nd, i've heard on cold pavement wheelspin can crop up in 3rd gear as well. I had a Mazdaspeed 3 years ago and it was also a great car but again the wheelspin get's really old, especially pulling out into traffic from a stop, and forget having any traction in the rain, ever.
I hear you; but everything you said also applies to a RWD vehicle with a torquey engine in the front.
So, are we all condemned to AWD for life?
My personal experience is that we have to adjust expectations and behaviors: going WOT or nearly WOT from a traffic stop in 1st gear will result in wheel spin in most decently powered RWD/FWD vehicles (except BRZ/FRS/GT86 maybe ).
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I hear you; but everything you said also applies to a RWD vehicle with a torquey engine in the front.
So, are we all condemned to AWD for life?
My personal experience is that we have to adjust expectations and behaviors: going WOT or nearly WOT from a traffic stop in 1st gear will result in wheel spin in most decently powered RWD/FWD vehicles (except BRZ/FRS/GT86 maybe ).
AWD guys get used to being able to mash the gas pedal at any time under any weather conditions - and get confused when they actually have to moderate a throttle.

I loved that aspect in my RWD cars, but it's a lot less fun in a FWD car.
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Old 01-16-2020, 04:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I hear you; but everything you said also applies to a RWD vehicle with a torquey engine in the front.
So, are we all condemned to AWD for life?
My personal experience is that we have to adjust expectations and behaviors: going WOT or nearly WOT from a traffic stop in 1st gear will result in wheel spin in most decently powered RWD/FWD vehicles (except BRZ/FRS/GT86 maybe ).
The problem with modern cars is that when you give it 20% throttle you're giving it 100% throttle most of the time; most modern cars do not have a linear throttle map, they have a "make it feel sporty" throttle map.

There is a huge difference between FWD and RWD in less than optimal conditions - yes, both are more likely to spin tire than an AWD system, but under acceleration weight transfer affects them very differently.

I drove high horsepower (for the time) RWD cars with no nannies year round, as well as fwd economy cars and moderately powered fwd cars with no nannies or the nannies disabled.

What I'm getting at here, is that under acceleration in less than optimal conditions, a RWD car is going to get going quicker than a FWD car (assuming similar power levels and similar tire widths).

1.) fox mustang with 300rwhp vs. a mazdaspeed3 with a tune - the mustang was easier to drive in the snow/rain, easier to get going and easier to control; the mazda had a better chassis, but it plowed and spun regardless of the LSD.

2.) NA miata vs. FWD 1.8l impreza - the miata was easier to drive in the snow/rain, easier to get going, and easier to control, granted, much better chassis than the impreza, and less weight, but I was looking at low horsepower stuff to compare that I have actual experience in.

3.) modified 2006 wrx wagon vs. everything I've owned previously - yeah way easier to handle in the snow, way easier to get going, more options for control as well (through handbrake, throttle & steering), probably the most fun car in the snow I've owned, also the most dangerous because of the speeds required to hang the tail out through a corner.

AWD>RWD>FWD in bad weather, RWD>AWD>FWD in good weather (unless we're talking higher power and a rear biased AWD system); my next car is hopefully RWD, AWD if I have to settle (because RWD four-door options in my area are limited). I don't want FWD, there isn't a single FWD car out there that I've driven that I've enjoyed on anything but pristine pavement; admittedly I haven't driven a CTR, but have driven some other moderately powered FWD stuff (mazdspeed 3 & GTI). Honestly the lower powered FWD tin-cans are the most fun, but that's light weight at play; 2,300lbs with a winder feels way better than 3,200lbs with a slow revving turbo motor.

Something I've also noticed, as FF stuff gets heavier, it gets way worse in the snow; they are nose heavy to begin with, and making the tires handle acceleration, steering & braking, coupled with the "safety net" manufacturers tune into the suspension (aka. PLOWING) just turns them into understeer machines; beyond that the current engine designs with all the torque down low makes them spin happy. Then there are open diffs to contend with on most FF stuff; it's just a recipe for a bad time. Another nail in the coffin for FWD cars is the electronic parking brake. I don't know about you guys, but when I drive FWD in crap weather I use the handbrake to control the rear end; taking that away via. an electronic parking brake is a stupid move, but I guess most people trust/use the nannies.

If the CTR were AWD with a more aggressive AWD system (instead of SH-AWD call it SB-AWD, for slidey-boy AWD) where it had a significant rear bias option/mode, it would be a hoot, and I could overlook the styling.

Last edited by Sid03SVT; 01-16-2020 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 01-16-2020, 06:06 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
The problem with modern cars is that when you give it 20% throttle you're giving it 100% throttle most of the time; most modern cars do not have a linear throttle map, they have a "make it feel sporty" throttle map.

There is a huge difference between FWD and RWD in less than optimal conditions - yes, both are more likely to spin tire than an AWD system, but under acceleration weight transfer affects them very differently.

I drove high horsepower (for the time) RWD cars with no nannies year round, as well as fwd economy cars and moderately powered fwd cars with no nannies or the nannies disabled.

What I'm getting at here, is that under acceleration in less than optimal conditions, a RWD car is going to get going quicker than a FWD car (assuming similar power levels and similar tire widths).

1.) fox mustang with 300rwhp vs. a mazdaspeed3 with a tune - the mustang was easier to drive in the snow/rain, easier to get going and easier to control; the mazda had a better chassis, but it plowed and spun regardless of the LSD.

2.) NA miata vs. FWD 1.8l impreza - the miata was easier to drive in the snow/rain, easier to get going, and easier to control, granted, much better chassis than the impreza, and less weight, but I was looking at low horsepower stuff to compare that I have actual experience in.

3.) modified 2006 wrx wagon vs. everything I've owned previously - yeah way easier to handle in the snow, way easier to get going, more options for control as well (through handbrake, throttle & steering), probably the most fun car in the snow I've owned, also the most dangerous because of the speeds required to hang the tail out through a corner.

AWD>RWD>FWD in bad weather, RWD>AWD>FWD in good weather (unless we're talking higher power and a rear biased AWD system); my next car is hopefully RWD, AWD if I have to settle (because RWD four-door options in my area are limited). I don't want FWD, there isn't a single FWD car out there that I've driven that I've enjoyed on anything but pristine pavement; admittedly I haven't driven a CTR, but have driven some other moderately powered FWD stuff (mazdspeed 3 & GTI). Honestly the lower powered FWD tin-cans are the most fun, but that's light weight at play; 2,300lbs with a winder feels way better than 3,200lbs with a slow revving turbo motor.

Something I've also noticed, as FF stuff gets heavier, it gets way worse in the snow; they are nose heavy to begin with, and making the tires handle acceleration, steering & braking, coupled with the "safety net" manufacturers tune into the suspension (aka. PLOWING) just turns them into understeer machines; beyond that the current engine designs with all the torque down low makes them spin happy. Then there are open diffs to contend with on most FF stuff; it's just a recipe for a bad time. Another nail in the coffin for FWD cars is the electronic parking brake. I don't know about you guys, but when I drive FWD in crap weather I use the handbrake to control the rear end; taking that away via. an electronic parking brake is a stupid move, but I guess most people trust/use the nannies.

If the CTR were AWD with a more aggressive AWD system (instead of SH-AWD call it SB-AWD, for slidey-boy AWD) where it had a significant rear bias option/mode, it would be a hoot, and I could overlook the styling.
Yeah, I agree, most of my FWD experience in foul weather has been with lightish weight and lower powered hatchbacks (a bunch of Peugeots, a few Renaults and my beloved 3-door 1994 Civic EG).
I have driven both Focus ST and Fiesta ST quite a bit, but only in dry weather.
The only thing I see is that CTR is lighter than most of the other 5-door turbo hatchbacks we've had in the USDM so far: slightly lighter than Gen1 MS3, definitely lighter than MS3 Gen2 and Focus ST.
It's only heavier than Mk7 GTI (depending on trim).
But, among all of these hatchbacks, CTR is the only one with double-axis struts/knuckles/hubs; that's where the extra grip/traction comes from (Renault has been using double-axis hubs on the Megane RS from the start).
So, again, maybe a CTR is less of a pain to deal with in foul weather with less torque steer, less steering corruption and more grip (granted CTR packs a little bit more of a punch than the others).
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:11 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
The problem with modern cars is that when you give it 20% throttle you're giving it 100% throttle most of the time; most modern cars do not have a linear throttle map, they have a "make it feel sporty" throttle map.

There is a huge difference between FWD and RWD in less than optimal conditions - yes, both are more likely to spin tire than an AWD system, but under acceleration weight transfer affects them very differently.

I drove high horsepower (for the time) RWD cars with no nannies year round, as well as fwd economy cars and moderately powered fwd cars with no nannies or the nannies disabled.

What I'm getting at here, is that under acceleration in less than optimal conditions, a RWD car is going to get going quicker than a FWD car (assuming similar power levels and similar tire widths).

1.) fox mustang with 300rwhp vs. a mazdaspeed3 with a tune - the mustang was easier to drive in the snow/rain, easier to get going and easier to control; the mazda had a better chassis, but it plowed and spun regardless of the LSD.

2.) NA miata vs. FWD 1.8l impreza - the miata was easier to drive in the snow/rain, easier to get going, and easier to control, granted, much better chassis than the impreza, and less weight, but I was looking at low horsepower stuff to compare that I have actual experience in.

3.) modified 2006 wrx wagon vs. everything I've owned previously - yeah way easier to handle in the snow, way easier to get going, more options for control as well (through handbrake, throttle & steering), probably the most fun car in the snow I've owned, also the most dangerous because of the speeds required to hang the tail out through a corner.

AWD>RWD>FWD in bad weather, RWD>AWD>FWD in good weather (unless we're talking higher power and a rear biased AWD system); my next car is hopefully RWD, AWD if I have to settle (because RWD four-door options in my area are limited). I don't want FWD, there isn't a single FWD car out there that I've driven that I've enjoyed on anything but pristine pavement; admittedly I haven't driven a CTR, but have driven some other moderately powered FWD stuff (mazdspeed 3 & GTI). Honestly the lower powered FWD tin-cans are the most fun, but that's light weight at play; 2,300lbs with a winder feels way better than 3,200lbs with a slow revving turbo motor.

Something I've also noticed, as FF stuff gets heavier, it gets way worse in the snow; they are nose heavy to begin with, and making the tires handle acceleration, steering & braking, coupled with the "safety net" manufacturers tune into the suspension (aka. PLOWING) just turns them into understeer machines; beyond that the current engine designs with all the torque down low makes them spin happy. Then there are open diffs to contend with on most FF stuff; it's just a recipe for a bad time. Another nail in the coffin for FWD cars is the electronic parking brake. I don't know about you guys, but when I drive FWD in crap weather I use the handbrake to control the rear end; taking that away via. an electronic parking brake is a stupid move, but I guess most people trust/use the nannies.

If the CTR were AWD with a more aggressive AWD system (instead of SH-AWD call it SB-AWD, for slidey-boy AWD) where it had a significant rear bias option/mode, it would be a hoot, and I could overlook the styling.
I agree with a lot of what you said but don't find that true in snow. Maybe cause in snow there's not much weight transfer to the rear, since you're going slow and are easing onto the throttle. I find my FWD Civic has more traction than my RWD 330 had - it's quite capable in the snow. It doesn't really rotate but not an understeering pig either. The BMW was great fun in the snow but I wouldn't let RWD noobs drive it in snow.
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:04 PM   #71
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RIP - 06' WRX w/ 6spd

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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
I hear you; but everything you said also applies to a RWD vehicle with a torquey engine in the front.
So, are we all condemned to AWD for life?
My personal experience is that we have to adjust expectations and behaviors: going WOT or nearly WOT from a traffic stop in 1st gear will result in wheel spin in most decently powered RWD/FWD vehicles (except BRZ/FRS/GT86 maybe ).
I don't find that at all true, I had a 400whp 135i (the twin turbo motor), that car did not have constant wheelspin issues and it didn't even have a LSD. No problems punching it in 2nd gear, even launching it fairly aggressively did not result in a smokeshow although of course you didn't just floor it and dump the clutch. It wasn't horrible in the rain either, my dads had a few M5's, I have a friend with a 350R, another with a 96' mustang (3200lbs) with a Coyote swap that is not stock about 440whp and it has traction, so really I just don't agree that torquey front engine rear drive cars have anything remotely similar to FWD traction issues.

Do you have a point about throttle modulation? Yes of course, its not that you can't, but consider what's the point of the Type R's 300whp if you can't actually put it to the pavement until you're well over the speed limit, its not that it's not fun or doable, but it can get really tiresome over a couple years dealing with it, and of course it also chews through tires like it's the sole purpose in life. I have quite abit of wheel time on the TypeR on hot pavement and driving it "sporty" that TC light just is blinking basically all the time, still, a great car.
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:11 PM   #72
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Series.White WRX? It's a nice upgrade with the Recaros, Brembos, Bilsteins, LED steering responsive headlights, LED fogs, Push button start, Apple CarPlay/Android Auto, and all of the other changes that came with the '18 refresh.

Of course you would still need the standard upgrades to improve the driving experience.. flex fuel tune, shifter bushing, shift stop, group n trans mount, steering dampener/sti steering joint, some better tires like PS4S, etc.

Otherwise, my guess is we won't see the next gen STI until MY22. It's still an unknown as to what we'll receive and I like to avoid purchasing the first MY of a new generation.

Edit: There's also the Veloster N, but it's also FWD and more of a "budget" option. I'm not a fan of the interior or 3 door setup. But it sounds great and seems to have raving reviews in terms of fun factor. Or even a Civic Si if you don't want to spent CTR money on FWD.
I appreciate the input! If i got a fwd the only car i would consider is an Si/CTR. I did consider getting a new wrx to tie me over. The issue i have with buying the new gen right away, is waiting for parts! If i don't plan on keeping the car the Si would be the much smarter option. Been seeing close to $12k off of 2019 RS3s, but that still leaves it a little out of the price range im comfortable with spending on a car. Did see some S3s full loaded for about $42ish. Thats definitely doable. Doing some research though it seems people aren't big on the non torsion Audia. Thanks agian!
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:39 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by sluflyer06 View Post
I don't find that at all true, I had a 400whp 135i (the twin turbo motor), that car did not have constant wheelspin issues and it didn't even have a LSD. No problems punching it in 2nd gear, even launching it fairly aggressively did not result in a smokeshow although of course you didn't just floor it and dump the clutch. It wasn't horrible in the rain either, my dads had a few M5's, I have a friend with a 350R, another with a 96' mustang (3200lbs) with a Coyote swap that is not stock about 440whp and it has traction, so really I just don't agree that torquey front engine rear drive cars have anything remotely similar to FWD traction issues.

Do you have a point about throttle modulation? Yes of course, its not that you can't, but consider what's the point of the Type R's 300whp if you can't actually put it to the pavement until you're well over the speed limit, its not that it's not fun or doable, but it can get really tiresome over a couple years dealing with it, and of course it also chews through tires like it's the sole purpose in life. I have quite abit of wheel time on the TypeR on hot pavement and driving it "sporty" that TC light just is blinking basically all the time, still, a great car.
Fair enough; points well taken.
Now, consider this, in my 4250 lbs 370-hp Charger, on stock all-season Goodyear Eagle RSA 245/45R20 tires, in 1st gear (4.70:1 from a ZF 8-speed multiplied by a 3.07:1 OPEN rear end), I could stand at any red light or stop sign and spin basically FOREVER in the DRY with TC in "Sport" mode (one step removed from TC being fully off).
On stickier Michelin PSS/PS4S and with a 3.09 LSD (replacing the open 3.07), it's much better, but going WOT in the wet from a dead stop in 1st is still an ill-advised endeavor
As for destroying front tires, my 06 WRX Wagon can do it too since the max amount of negative camber than can be dialed in with the stock hardware is limited and it's easy to over-drive past what the outside front tire can take (I had to go to camber plates to increase both caster and camber to get the front bite I wanted).
I certainly don't want to minimize or discount the traction issues you're experiencing with the CTR; I don't own one and I haven't driven one, so I have no leg to stand on.
But, if I were to buy one, I'd take it to track days to really let loose and not worry about LEOs and speed limits; I think that's really where these type of cars truly shine.
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Old 01-17-2020, 07:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Fair enough; points well taken.
Now, consider this, in my 4250 lbs 370-hp Charger, on stock all-season Goodyear Eagle RSA 245/45R20 tires, in 1st gear (4.70:1 from a ZF 8-speed multiplied by a 3.07:1 OPEN rear end), I could stand at any red light or stop sign and spin basically FOREVER in the DRY with TC in "Sport" mode (one step removed from TC being fully off).
On stickier Michelin PSS/PS4S and with a 3.09 LSD (replacing the open 3.07), it's much better, but going WOT in the wet from a dead stop in 1st is still an ill-advised endeavor
As for destroying front tires, my 06 WRX Wagon can do it too since the max amount of negative camber than can be dialed in with the stock hardware is limited and it's easy to over-drive past what the outside front tire can take (I had to go to camber plates to increase both caster and camber to get the front bite I wanted).
I certainly don't want to minimize or discount the traction issues you're experiencing with the CTR; I don't own one and I haven't driven one, so I have no leg to stand on.
But, if I were to buy one, I'd take it to track days to really let loose and not worry about LEOs and speed limits; I think that's really where these type of cars truly shine.
My 06 wrx wagon ate fronts too - I had whiteline com-c tophats to get more negative camber up front and camber bolts out back to get less negative camber, not to mention the other hard parts under it to make it as neutral as possible (honestly it would oversteer when pushed beyond the limit, but could be fixed with the right foot thanks to AWD).

As for the charger, long wheelbase and 55F/45R weight distribution (or something like that) 245 is not enough tire, especially not with an open diff. Also I'm pretty sure one of the main design intents for the Charger was tire smoke.
But a good example where throttle control is required.

Since we're talking V8 RWD, I'll say something for modular mustangs; They build power later, and are much friendlier off the line (notable exception being the 03-04 cobras). Launching the newer stuff is easier than what I owned/modified, although tire technology has gotten significantly better as well, and that plays a major role, as well as driving in adverse conditions.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:26 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
AWD guys get used to being able to mash the gas pedal at any time under any weather conditions - and get confused when they actually have to moderate a throttle.
I don't know about that. Perhaps you are referring to the layman, the mouf breather, or both, dunno. But most of us here, that is not true. AWD does give you much more traction in inclement weather, and for many you can carry more speed because you have more traction but it's not a fool proof drivetrain. You still have to moderate the throttle, just not as much as FWD or RWD in inclement weather. I've done sh *t in my RS and STi that I could never do in any of my RWD vehicles I have owned, but moderating the throttle still has to be performed. You've just got a larger window or larger margins and larger margins of error. I have RWD vehicles now where moderation is absolutely key or you'll die, literally, or best case end up in the ER. They aren't as forgiving as an automobile 2 wheels, 170 RWHP, and 400 some odd pounds is a recipe for disaster if you don't know what you are doing, unable to be judicious with the throttle, and moderate yourself. I think that philosophy applies to most any vehicle in any weather condition. You just have limits in each.
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