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Old 04-22-2014, 08:23 AM   #26
KillerBMotorsport
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This is a GTX30R based kit and we'll be checking 35R fitment soon. EFR turbochargers are very long in comparison and there is no Tial product available for them yet.
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:23 AM   #27
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My wish is that you would make a 321 two bolt ewg rotated up pipe with mounting bracket for the tial housing. That with a down pipe as a "tuner tuner kit" would be sweet.

Last edited by slowgenius; 04-22-2014 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:47 PM   #28
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Wow, how is this making full boost at 2900rpm?
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:58 PM   #29
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If you want to test this kit on a ej207 let me know it definetly looks like a kit iam interested in.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:01 PM   #30
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I would be happy if you made a rotated vband up pipe w/ EWG that was compatible w/ the existing header and the tial housing. Would have saved me a lot of grief.
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:13 PM   #31
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seriously. when will these be ready, and how much of a deposit do you need.
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:40 PM   #32
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You mention heat soak, and that you're planning to change from an OEM to ETS TMIC due to soaking... why not just throw a blanket on the hot side of the turbo?
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:15 PM   #33
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So I know that you tuned for 21 lbs of boost, but if you had a built block what sort of boost pressure is the turbo at its' best on?

Is there any boost drop off at higher rpms with a given higher boost target?

How would you compare this turbo and setup comparatively to a gtx3071/ 2.5xtr and a gtx3076?

Thanks Chris for the fantastic work.
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Nice design How does it do with the 82?
Well see very soon. I'll be testing this adapter on my Dom 3.5xtr with the .82 ar housing. I don't really think the 3067 warrants the need for the .82 but I could be wrong here.
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:02 PM   #35
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This adapter and down pipe kit will be optimized when used with a Killer B Holy header. It can be used with any SL up pipe/ EWG set up. This is not really a small niche part of the Subaru market. If you are already running an EWG SL turbo build and looking to ditch the stock location turbine housing for your Garrett CHRA turbo and want to make more power with better spool then this will be a great option. Even if you have a non Garrett based SL turbo EWG build this is also a good option if you also upgrade to a Garrett based turbo!
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
This adapter and down pipe kit will be optimized when used with a Killer B Holy header. It can be used with any SL up pipe/ EWG set up. This is not really a small niche part of the Subaru market. If you are already running an EWG SL turbo build and looking to ditch the stock location turbine housing for your Garrett CHRA turbo and want to make more power with better spool then this will be a great option. Even if you have a non Garrett based SL turbo EWG build this is also a good option if you also upgrade to a Garrett based turbo!
To use this "kit" you would need the following (correct me if I'm wrong):

Garrett 30R Turbo
Tial V-Band Hotside
Machined Compressor Housing
KillerB Adapter Flange and Associated Hardware
KillerB V-Band Downpipe

That seems like the basic list for most people. I'd imagine that quite a few of the people wanting to do this would be wanting to just buy the whole turbo with this kit. If you are buying the whole turbo you also may be buying some random oil and coolant fittings/lines.

There are some people that would be running a stock location 30R and want to do this as an upgrade to their current turbo. But that still requires the KillerB flange and KillerB downpipe, plus a Tial hotside, and custom machining on the compressor housing.

That seems like an awful lot of money to spend to be able to go from an stock location housing to a Tial housing. I'd have to guess that it would be a similar cost to go to a true rotated, fully v-band turbo and get an easier setup to work on an a more simple intake path.

To me it just seems like a bit of a compromise vs. a rotated setup or even a "stock location" v-band uppipe. I'm surprised KillerB chose to go down this path. They've never been one to compromise. It always seems like performance is #1 (and I like that). For example:

If they'd have offered their header with a 2 bolt flange so that it could be used with other uppipes (especially before they had the EWG option) it would have sold more I'm sure. But they didn't, and I understand why. Their more expensive option (header+uppipe) was better.

I think you're probably right that there are some people who will have lots of upgraded stock location parts and be convinced that this is easier (a few less parts to buy/replace), but I think a lot of it will have to do with how much (if any) cheaper this is than a rotated uppipe and downpipe.

Looking forward to seeing pricing and more results. Unfortunately I don't have a Garrett-based stock location turbo at the moment or maybe I could be convinced to give this a shot. I'd certainly be more interested in a KillerB v-band uppipe (but I suppose you already offer that, sort of, with the DIY kit).
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Old 04-23-2014, 01:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Well see very soon. I'll be testing this adapter on my Dom 3.5xtr with the .82 ar housing. I don't really think the 3067 warrants the need for the .82 but I could be wrong here.
There's a definite loss in top end with the gtx3071 with the 63. But the reverse feels true for me. The loss in spool from the 82 feels negligible, whereas it's noticeable on the old 3067. I have both housings. It does seem logical to expect the smaller housing top end impact to be lessened on the 67 with the lower flowing wheel, but it's cheaper to ask than to buy one and test it. I feel like if the 67 with the 82 performs even partially better than the 71 with 63 but spools faster Id consider getting one.
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:26 AM   #38
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What your thoughts of a GTX2867r? Could the 28 turbine wheel help improve spool? Or would the added pre turbo back pressure possibly actually slow spool do to the engine not being able to expel exhaust fast enough?
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
To use this "kit" you would need the following (correct me if I'm wrong):

Garrett 30R Turbo
Tial V-Band Hotside
Machined Compressor Housing
KillerB Adapter Flange and Associated Hardware
KillerB V-Band Downpipe

That seems like the basic list for most people. I'd imagine that quite a few of the people wanting to do this would be wanting to just buy the whole turbo with this kit. If you are buying the whole turbo you also may be buying some random oil and coolant fittings/lines.

There are some people that would be running a stock location 30R and want to do this as an upgrade to their current turbo. But that still requires the KillerB flange and KillerB downpipe, plus a Tial hotside, and custom machining on the compressor housing.

That seems like an awful lot of money to spend to be able to go from an stock location housing to a Tial housing. I'd have to guess that it would be a similar cost to go to a true rotated, fully v-band turbo and get an easier setup to work on an a more simple intake path.

To me it just seems like a bit of a compromise vs. a rotated setup or even a "stock location" v-band uppipe. I'm surprised KillerB chose to go down this path. They've never been one to compromise. It always seems like performance is #1 (and I like that). For example:

If they'd have offered their header with a 2 bolt flange so that it could be used with other uppipes (especially before they had the EWG option) it would have sold more I'm sure. But they didn't, and I understand why. Their more expensive option (header+uppipe) was better.

I think you're probably right that there are some people who will have lots of upgraded stock location parts and be convinced that this is easier (a few less parts to buy/replace), but I think a lot of it will have to do with how much (if any) cheaper this is than a rotated uppipe and downpipe.

Looking forward to seeing pricing and more results. Unfortunately I don't have a Garrett-based stock location turbo at the moment or maybe I could be convinced to give this a shot. I'd certainly be more interested in a KillerB v-band uppipe (but I suppose you already offer that, sort of, with the DIY kit).
Ben, See my notes (bold) next to your suggested list of requirements.

Garrett 30R Turbo- It could be any Garrett turbo variants that Tial makes housings for; 28R, 30R, Blouch Dom 3.5/ 4 (with some machining to the 30R housing to open it up for there Garrett 64 mm turbine wheel) and probably the 35R's (this needs some testing to be sure it fits)
Tial V-Band Hotside- Yep
Machined Compressor Housing- Were not completely sure on this yet, I think my Dom 3.5 comp housing will not need machining but this need further testing and fitment.
KillerB Adapter Flange and Associated Hardware- Yep
KillerB V-Band Downpipe- Yep


I was the one that instigated this project with Chris. When i first told him that I thought we could fit the Tial houising in the stock loication, I was thinking that we would just cut off the SL flange and weld on the v-band flange, then modify the down pipe to fit the Tial housing. After Chris and I spoke and exchanged email's Chris and I thought that an adapter flange would work and if it would it would also open this idea up to any stock location up pipe regardles of the header used.

Chris then did the engineering on this adapter/ DP and got it to the beta test point it is at now. I think we all agree a modded KBHH SL up pipe with just a v-band flange would be cleaner but this adapter actually opens up the user market to more than just Killer B Holy Header users and does not compromise the performance one bit.

Here's a little bit more history on this that I posted in the KB header testing thread. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=454
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:29 PM   #40
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Yes, I did see that you took credit for this in the other thread.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
There's a definite loss in top end with the gtx3071 with the 63. But the reverse feels true for me. The loss in spool from the 82 feels negligible, whereas it's noticeable on the old 3067. I have both housings. It does seem logical to expect the smaller housing top end impact to be lessened on the 67 with the lower flowing wheel, but it's cheaper to ask than to buy one and test it. I feel like if the 67 with the 82 performs even partially better than the 71 with 63 but spools faster Id consider getting one.
reid, I'm with ya on this. I really don't think there is going to be much of a change in spool with my Dom 3.5/ 58-60 lb./ minute turbo. Chris said that in testing the GTX3071 on his low mount they saw 300 slower spool with the .82 but it heal power 500 rpm's higher that the 63. According the Garrett the the new GTX3067 will make about the same power as the GTX3071 because of the more efficient comp wheel. As NA STI mentioned earlier the 67 mm wheel is a 10 blade design vs an 11 blade on the 71 mm wheel, lighter and more efficient aero. So probably similar AR spool characteristics would apply to the 67 mm wheel. I would bet the GTX67 has a broader compressor map and may not be slower to spool with the 82.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:46 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
My wish is that you would make a 321 two bolt ewg rotated up pipe with mounting bracket for the tial housing. That with a down pipe as a "tuner tuner kit" would be sweet.
We do sell a DIY header setup. There are LOTS of up/down pipe 'rotated' kits out there and with our 2-bolt on the horizon you could use it on anything currently out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pet3r View Post
Wow, how is this making full boost at 2900rpm?
It's actually a wee bit less than that, bus who's counting

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandern05 View Post
If you want to test this kit on a ej207 let me know it definetly looks like a kit iam interested in.
Thanks for the offer. We've already got beta testers selected to try and break this stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPest View Post
I would be happy if you made a rotated vband up pipe w/ EWG that was compatible w/ the existing header and the tial housing. Would have saved me a lot of grief.
There are a couple guys that make a rotated adapter. This would do exactly what you're looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmenet View Post

seriously. when will these be ready, and how much of a deposit do you need.
After beta testers get a good opportunity to try and break them We'll keep the thread updated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatentWagen View Post
You mention heat soak, and that you're planning to change from an OEM to ETS TMIC due to soaking... why not just throw a blanket on the hot side of the turbo?
The housing is already Swain Tech Coated. It wasn't something I planned on, the small Tial housing I had here just happened to already be coated from previous fun. A blanket would kill the coating and I don't think that's the cause of the heat soak. More so because the OEM intercooler is beyond capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSparky View Post
So I know that you tuned for 21 lbs of boost, but if you had a built block what sort of boost pressure is the turbo at its' best on?

Is there any boost drop off at higher rpms with a given higher boost target?

How would you compare this turbo and setup comparatively to a gtx3071/ 2.5xtr and a gtx3076?

Thanks Chris for the fantastic work.
It drives/feels very similar to the 3071, but even more responsive. Which is tough to believe. What harder to believe is that I haven't got a ticket yet! It is fun!

As far as pushing beyond these levels I would refer you to the compressor map to see where things fall at higher boost levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Well see very soon. I'll be testing this adapter on my Dom 3.5xtr with the .82 ar housing. I don't really think the 3067 warrants the need for the .82 but I could be wrong here.
From what I was told by Garrett the 0.82 A/R housing would be less responsive and produce marginally more power. The 0.63 A/R is working really well so I have no room to complain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
This adapter and down pipe kit will be optimized when used with a Killer B Holy header. It can be used with any SL up pipe/ EWG set up. This is not really a small niche part of the Subaru market. If you are already running an EWG SL turbo build and looking to ditch the stock location turbine housing for your Garrett CHRA turbo and want to make more power with better spool then this will be a great option. Even if you have a non Garrett based SL turbo EWG build this is also a good option if you also upgrade to a Garrett based turbo!
^ Correct!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
To use this "kit" you would need the following (correct me if I'm wrong):

Garrett 30R Turbo
Tial V-Band Hotside
Machined Compressor Housing
KillerB Adapter Flange and Associated Hardware
KillerB V-Band Downpipe

That seems like the basic list for most people. I'd imagine that quite a few of the people wanting to do this would be wanting to just buy the whole turbo with this kit. If you are buying the whole turbo you also may be buying some random oil and coolant fittings/lines.

There are some people that would be running a stock location 30R and want to do this as an upgrade to their current turbo. But that still requires the KillerB flange and KillerB downpipe, plus a Tial hotside, and custom machining on the compressor housing.

That seems like an awful lot of money to spend to be able to go from an stock location housing to a Tial housing. I'd have to guess that it would be a similar cost to go to a true rotated, fully v-band turbo and get an easier setup to work on an a more simple intake path.

To me it just seems like a bit of a compromise vs. a rotated setup or even a "stock location" v-band uppipe. I'm surprised KillerB chose to go down this path. They've never been one to compromise. It always seems like performance is #1 (and I like that). For example:

If they'd have offered their header with a 2 bolt flange so that it could be used with other uppipes (especially before they had the EWG option) it would have sold more I'm sure. But they didn't, and I understand why. Their more expensive option (header+uppipe) was better.

I think you're probably right that there are some people who will have lots of upgraded stock location parts and be convinced that this is easier (a few less parts to buy/replace), but I think a lot of it will have to do with how much (if any) cheaper this is than a rotated uppipe and downpipe.

Looking forward to seeing pricing and more results. Unfortunately I don't have a Garrett-based stock location turbo at the moment or maybe I could be convinced to give this a shot. I'd certainly be more interested in a KillerB v-band uppipe (but I suppose you already offer that, sort of, with the DIY kit).
Also see Manitou's reply.

So far we've got MSRP at $1,728. This includes adapter with hold down clamps, downpipe and all hardware necessary to install a GT/GTX/Tial turbocharger (gaskets, drain, coolant fittings, etc.). We can look at other options that may include turbocharger and the Perrin inlet we used also. This is all up for debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
There's a definite loss in top end with the gtx3071 with the 63. But the reverse feels true for me. The loss in spool from the 82 feels negligible, whereas it's noticeable on the old 3067. I have both housings. It does seem logical to expect the smaller housing top end impact to be lessened on the 67 with the lower flowing wheel, but it's cheaper to ask than to buy one and test it. I feel like if the 67 with the 82 performs even partially better than the 71 with 63 but spools faster Id consider getting one.
All good points and about sums up the 3067. I honestly didn't expect this much power out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
What your thoughts of a GTX2867r? Could the 28 turbine wheel help improve spool? Or would the added pre turbo back pressure possibly actually slow spool do to the engine not being able to expel exhaust fast enough?
I've never run one. Smaller wheels generally spin quicker because of the lower mass. Pre-turbo pressure should improve spool since this is what puts the turbine into motion The smaller housing will theoretically become the limitation as the revs climb high though.
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Old 04-23-2014, 01:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Also see Manitou's reply.

So far we've got MSRP at $1,728. This includes adapter with hold down clamps, downpipe and all hardware necessary to install a GT/GTX/Tial turbocharger (gaskets, drain, coolant fittings, etc.). We can look at other options that may include turbocharger and the Perrin inlet we used also. This is all up for debate.
It may or may not make sense to offer a turbo inlet with this unless you make it a menu based choice and offer both the Perrin 3" and 2.25" inlet tubes. If you figure all of the potential with just the Blouch XTR users with the 1.5, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4 and 5 there are plenty of SL turbos with both 2.25" and 3" inlets. Then add in the FP and ATP turbos. FP makes their own 84 mm inlet for their Garrett based Black HTA and Red HTA.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:02 PM   #44
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^ Might not be a bad idea.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:42 PM   #45
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The .63 tial housing will most likely be the better choice for most people that want a snappy turbo setup like this especially with a gtx3067 turbo choice.

I think the Tial .63 housings flow better and cleaner at higher rpms compared to most .63 housings as well... these Tial castings are immaculate inside and out. On top of that with an external wastegate setup your bypassing a decent amount of exhaust pressure before it even hits the inlet of the exhaust housing which should create alot less turbulence right there at the turbine vs an IWG setup.

But it really all depends on how you want your car. Me personally id rather take a 15whp loss at high rpms to gain a decent amount of throttle response, couple hundred rpms less lag, and have stronger low end tq.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:49 PM   #46
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Do the Tial housings have different internal dimensions and/or flow characteristics compared to Garrett's traditional flanged turbos? In other words, is there any difference in performance between a GT35 .82 A/R T04 open volute and its Tial counterpart?
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
^ Might not be a bad idea.

Regarding the blanket on top of swain coating, im sure you already know this and have tried it but I run a blanket on my swain hot side and it has no effect on the coating. At least on my car it hasnt, none has come off and no rub spots. And having the blanket on of course does help some more.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:10 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
What your thoughts of a GTX2867r? Could the 28 turbine wheel help improve spool? Or would the added pre turbo back pressure possibly actually slow spool do to the engine not being able to expel exhaust fast enough?
I know everyone loves comparisons and its impossible to find anyone running a gtx2867 with tial housing... Well except me lol. I just took a look at my logs from when I was etuning with Phatron and I hit 18psi at 3100rpms on a simple, conservative 93 tune. I told Ron to not spend alot of time on it and just make a stable, safe tune for my 93 map since im only going to be running it to occasionally clean the injectors or if im out of town (which is pretty much never). Got to show love to the local E85 station 5mins my house for 2.89$ a gal

Keep in mind this is a 06 STi with the very short 4th gear (97mph at redline, 245/40/17 tire) and I only have single AVCS vs the killer Bs dual avcs gtx3067 test car. As most of you know both of these factors have a huge affect of building boost and comparing results at very low rpms. Other then that our car setups are somewhat similar as I have a EL header, TMIC, .64 tial vband housing.

The size of the turbine wheel in the gt28 vs gt30 is a big difference. The gt28 uses a more efficient "ns111" 9 blade wheel thats only 53.8mm. The standard 30r turbine wheel was actually designed for diesels from my understanding, and is 60mm 10blade. There are "NS111" 60mm 30r turbine wheels produced by Garrett that are a more efficient design and much lighter but they are rare and not available to the public.

Just trying to shed a little light to people interested as I read up on all turbos options and all the different choices for months before I buy parts to put together my setup for what I want. I really wish Garrett would step up and make a newer,lighter, and better designed turbine as I have a feeling they are going to lose ALOT of customers once Borg Warner figures out how to produce more then 5 turbos per year and when the Tial ewg vband housings are finally released for them (efr series)

Im curious to see how much peak power KillerB can hit on this gtx3067 setup with e85 so I can also compare the peak numbers with my gtx2867 e85 setup.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:27 PM   #49
KillerBMotorsport
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I have a feeling they are going to lose ALOT of customers once Borg Warner figures out how to produce more then 5 turbos per year and when the Tial ewg vband housings are finally released for them (efr series)

Im curious to see how much peak power KillerB can hit on this gtx3067 setup with e85 so I can also compare the peak numbers with my gtx2867 e85 setup.
Agreed!

That comparison won't come from us, we have no E85 anywhere nearby

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Originally Posted by lemming View Post
Do the Tial housings have different internal dimensions and/or flow characteristics compared to Garrett's traditional flanged turbos? In other words, is there any difference in performance between a GT35 .82 A/R T04 open volute and its Tial counterpart?
Someone may have more insight into this than I, but I believe Garretts newest turbine housings are more performance oriented vs the older ones that were diesel/truck oriented. The newer Garrett V-Band housing is supposed to work as well as the Tial. We were already designing around the Tial when they came out so we have no data on them.

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Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
Regarding the blanket on top of swain coating, im sure you already know this and have tried it but I run a blanket on my swain hot side and it has no effect on the coating. At least on my car it hasnt, none has come off and no rub spots. And having the blanket on of course does help some more.
I ran one on a coated housing once and it cause the coating to completely delaminate destroying both coating and blanket. So I am skeptical to try that again.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:54 PM   #50
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Agreed!

That comparison won't come from us, we have no E85 anywhere nearby
Dang you guys are missing out on all the fun on that side of Virginia... dont make me drive over there and drop off a few barrels of this magic stuff.
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