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02-25-2011, 12:57 PM | #2276 | |
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Quote:
Same goes for an Epic tuned WRX....baselined 5hp more on Topspeed's dyno. So just because one dyno says one thing, it doesn't mean it'll read higher or lower on others. Guess it ultimately depends on how the dyno is set up and calibrated.
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02-25-2011, 01:27 PM | #2277 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:07 FPgreen 7.37@95 WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph |
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02-25-2011, 01:57 PM | #2278 |
Scooby Specialist
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MWSOC
Location: grove city ohio
Vehicle:04 sti 10.41@141 on e85@ 30psi--spinning |
At 26 psi on e85 w/ pte6765,even on a low reading dyno?,only made 471,that doesn't impress me or I bet anyone else.I can believe that at that power level its probably maxed out.I don't believe there is some magically built walbro type fuel pump that supports unbelievable power.sorry
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02-25-2011, 02:45 PM | #2279 | |
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Vehicle:07 FPgreen 7.37@95 WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph |
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02-25-2011, 03:07 PM | #2280 |
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Forged stated that they maxed out the Deatschwerks fuel pump at 471 hp @ 26 psi.
Funny thing is on meth injection with M15 nozzle and 820cc injectors I know of a GT35R at the same boost levels making the same power and the Walbro 255 in that car was nowhere close to maxing. So we'll see how much power it makes when the custom fuel system in that car goes in. They need to get on the 1/4 and get some traps recorded. |
02-25-2011, 03:23 PM | #2281 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:2000 700Whp The RSTI SRP |
that makes no since, if you look at this chart the pump should be no where maxed out at stock base fuel pressure.
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02-25-2011, 03:32 PM | #2282 |
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Vehicle:CEO PhatBottiTuning 2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth |
those are most likely gasoline numbers.....
so...at 43.5 psi we're at roughly 975 crank hp.... take off 30% for e85.....that brings us down to 682 chp now take off 25% for drivetrain loss to get whp....that brings us to 512whp then you can have variances of ~10% depending on if the tuner runs 11:1 AFR or 12:1 AFR..... |
02-25-2011, 03:59 PM | #2283 | |
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don't most tuners run around 12.5:1 AFR on E85? right now on 91oct my car is set to run at 11.5:1-11.6:1 AFR |
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02-25-2011, 04:09 PM | #2284 | |
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Vehicle:CEO PhatBottiTuning 2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth |
Not that im aware of....most e85 cars i will run ~11.5....if people are trying to push it or go for a record, then 11.8-12.0 and even then i give them a rich DD map.
you can make power going leaner, but i wouldnt do so without an EGT gauge.... and 11.5 is way to lean for 91oct IMO......i usually keep 91oct cars to 10.8-11 the 5whp gained from leaning out to 11.5 isnt worth the rise in EGT's.....and it also gets rid of a bunch of your safety factor if you get a turbo inlet leak and start to run lean. On my personal car on 91+meth with 2 1.00mm meth nozzles i still run 10.8-11.2...... there is a discussion of it in this thread.....and this experiment by another member. Just browse through dynocharts with AFR on them....you will see that dynocharts with large variances in AFR show no waviness in the power lines....this should be a huge telling factor that the AFR has little effect on power. In the thread linked below you can see it and follow our discussion on the lean AFR that the tuner chose to run. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2108343 Quote:
Last edited by Phatron; 02-25-2011 at 04:18 PM. |
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02-25-2011, 04:16 PM | #2285 | |
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Ill be curious to see how my E85 tune comes out once its all said and done. the reason I came to 12.5, was I am under the assumption you run a full point leaner than on standard fuel. |
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02-25-2011, 04:25 PM | #2286 |
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Vehicle:CEO PhatBottiTuning 2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth |
The reason i am conservative with fueling is that its the only thing that can change by itself after it leaves my hands.
The boost can overboost, but i build in safety columns for that and the car will run way less timing and a richer AFR during an overboost..... but there is nothing i can do to keep the AFR from leaning out if there is a leak....or if the D Range learning acquires a -5 to -10% value and starts leaning the car out at WOT...... Why not error on the side of caution....if someone wants 5whp more i will bump the boost 0.5 psi or add 0.5* of timing.... |
02-25-2011, 04:47 PM | #2287 | |
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thanks for the explanation. Last edited by jnorth85; 02-25-2011 at 04:53 PM. |
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02-26-2011, 01:53 AM | #2288 |
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I wasn't aware that there was even the tiniest shred of evidence that the DW300 pump either reliable or unreliable. Where is this shred of evidence?
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02-26-2011, 01:37 PM | #2289 | |
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you run a point leaner on race gas, but not e85. e85 is not race gas. It is not gasoline based. e85 is 85%ethanol and 15% gasoline. Tuning e85 on a WBO2 calibrated for Fuel is an ok way to do things. It's better to use Lambda on alternative fuels. 0.78-.8 Lambda on e85 works very well and comes out to about 11.7:1 on a wbo2 calibrated for gasoline. 1 lambda is 14.7 on gasoline 1 lambda is 9:1 on ethanol 1 lambda is about 10:1 on e85. .8 lambda is 20% rich which is common place for most fuels. So on e85, it's actually 8:1 when your gasoline calibrated WBO2 reads 11.7:1. Going leaner than that means you are running a little lean for e85. The thing with e85 is that you can run leaner than needed for max power and still not knock. I have had a couple cars that weren't knocking, but when I enriched the mixture I gained 15whp. |
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02-26-2011, 02:12 PM | #2290 |
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I ordered the Aeromotive pump, going to run it on 93 for now but thinking about e85 in the future. I think my walbro is going out its several years old so I figure I might as well upgrade with the aeromotive drop in.
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02-26-2011, 05:24 PM | #2291 | |
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I do not understand why you guys are making it so complicated. On a regular old wideband 11.75 afr is perfect target for wot on E85, 11.0 Afr perfect target on gasoline . The wideband doesn't start reading all funky on E85, it works just fine no changes. All this 1.0 lambda is this for that fuel and something else for a different fuel is garbage... I cruise at 1.0 lambda on E85, I'm not cruising at 10.0 afr, and my wide band tells me I'm not , it reads 14.7 when I switch it to afr. The wideband is reading the mixture , it doesn't lie! Whoever came up with these "E85 is running at 10.0 afr at 1.0 lambda" must have been way over analyzing Ethanol and E85, were they thinking because we are using 25-30% more fuel that the mixture was that much richer than the gasoline mixtures? I don't think so because, If I take 14.7afr and take and add 30% I come up with 10.25afr, coincidence I think not!! Check it out, If your using a vehicle that is flex fuel and trying to set up the tune this E85 @ 10.0afr = stoich thing makes sense. Your running gasoline and your flex fuel vehicle is targeting 14.7 afr. You stop grab a full tank of E85 Your vehicle can't keep targeting 14.7 or it won't have enough fuel. So the tune (ecu) targets 10.0 afr and it gives the vehicle 30% more fuel for the E85 in the tank. While the tune (ecu) is targeting 10.0 afr , it is really cruising at 14.7 afr . Is anyone following this? So in my opinion the 1.0 lambda = 10.0 afr on E85 thing is only to be used by people tuning flex fuel vehicles. Since our "injector scaling for E85" trick takes care of us subarus, we don't even need to think of those wierd e85 = different afr calculations... What's up boys never thought that deep on the subject huh? Last edited by TDagen; 02-26-2011 at 05:30 PM. |
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02-26-2011, 05:25 PM | #2292 |
Former Vendor
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02-26-2011, 05:27 PM | #2293 | |
Former Vendor
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Wrong about this. It DOES change. WBO2 sensors read lambda. The value that is output (14.7:1 or whatever) is a ratio of lamba based on the fuel you are using. IT DOES change based on which fuel. 14.7:1 on gasoline is actually 10:1 on e85. both equal 1.0 Lambda. |
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02-26-2011, 05:30 PM | #2294 | |
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the sensor reads lambda. |
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02-26-2011, 05:30 PM | #2295 |
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law?^^^sounds good to me.
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02-26-2011, 05:34 PM | #2296 | |
Scooby Specialist
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02-26-2011, 05:35 PM | #2297 | |
Former Vendor
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The ecu doesn't look for 14.7. the ecu looks for Lambda. So regardless of the fuel you use, the ecu is searching for lambda. If you switch to e85, you have to run 25% richer to achieve lambda. The ecu does that automatically. The only MAJOR difference between our ecus and flex fuel is that we get a CEL if we have a correction greater than 15%. Flex fuel vehicles monitor ethanol concentration in the fuel and get a set of variable parameters based on that. If the concentration of ethanol is high and the ecu has to add 25% to hit Lambda 1, then it knows that it's correct in the fuel and there aren't any faults. If the ecu has to add 50% to get lambda 1 and the ethanol concentration matches e85, then it knows there is a problem and that would trigger a "system to lean" CEL. |
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02-26-2011, 05:36 PM | #2298 | |
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It will absolutely say 14.7. but it isn't. It's actually 10:1. |
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02-26-2011, 05:37 PM | #2299 |
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Maxwwellpower the lc1 wideband reads that way to help you tune a flex fuel vehicle on E85.. That's the only reason you can change it over to E85 afrs IMO ...
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02-26-2011, 05:41 PM | #2300 |
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I'm goin to agree to disagree with you. I want to hear some others thoughts on the subject. Btw I know that widebands use lambda to calculate afr I didn't just fall off the wagon
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