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Old 02-25-2011, 12:57 PM   #2276
GT35RHybrid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I found something for John , a 6765 on 100% making 471whp which is over 500whp on a low reading mustang dyno, running a single DW 300lph.

Jake where is my monies ?
FYI don't believe the low reading hype. FYI a car tuned at Forged when to Topspeed's DynoJet and based lined with 5 hp of what Forged's dyno said.

Same goes for an Epic tuned WRX....baselined 5hp more on Topspeed's dyno.

So just because one dyno says one thing, it doesn't mean it'll read higher or lower on others. Guess it ultimately depends on how the dyno is set up and calibrated.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:27 PM   #2277
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Originally Posted by GT35RHybrid View Post
FYI don't believe the low reading hype. FYI a car tuned at Forged when to Topspeed's DynoJet and based lined with 5 hp of what Forged's dyno said.

Same goes for an Epic tuned WRX....baselined 5hp more on Topspeed's dyno.

So just because one dyno says one thing, it doesn't mean it'll read higher or lower on others. Guess it ultimately depends on how the dyno is set up and calibrated.
Maybe topspeed's dynojet is a low reading dynojet
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:57 PM   #2278
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At 26 psi on e85 w/ pte6765,even on a low reading dyno?,only made 471,that doesn't impress me or I bet anyone else.I can believe that at that power level its probably maxed out.I don't believe there is some magically built walbro type fuel pump that supports unbelievable power.sorry
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:45 PM   #2279
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
At 26 psi on e85 w/ pte6765,even on a low reading dyno?,only made 471,that doesn't impress me or I bet anyone else.I can believe that at that power level its probably maxed out.I don't believe there is some magically built walbro type fuel pump that supports unbelievable power.sorry
.......
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:07 PM   #2280
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Forged stated that they maxed out the Deatschwerks fuel pump at 471 hp @ 26 psi.

Funny thing is on meth injection with M15 nozzle and 820cc injectors I know of a GT35R at the same boost levels making the same power and the Walbro 255 in that car was nowhere close to maxing.

So we'll see how much power it makes when the custom fuel system in that car goes in. They need to get on the 1/4 and get some traps recorded.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:23 PM   #2281
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that makes no since, if you look at this chart the pump should be no where maxed out at stock base fuel pressure.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:32 PM   #2282
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those are most likely gasoline numbers.....

so...at 43.5 psi we're at roughly 975 crank hp....

take off 30% for e85.....that brings us down to 682 chp

now take off 25% for drivetrain loss to get whp....that brings us to 512whp

then you can have variances of ~10% depending on if the tuner runs 11:1 AFR or 12:1 AFR.....
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:59 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
those are most likely gasoline numbers.....

so...at 43.5 psi we're at roughly 975 crank hp....

take off 30% for e85.....that brings us down to 682 chp

now take off 25% for drivetrain loss to get whp....that brings us to 512whp

then you can have variances of ~10% depending on if the tuner runs 11:1 AFR or 12:1 AFR.....
forgive me for my lack of tuning knowledge.

don't most tuners run around 12.5:1 AFR on E85?

right now on 91oct my car is set to run at 11.5:1-11.6:1 AFR
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:09 PM   #2284
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Not that im aware of....most e85 cars i will run ~11.5....if people are trying to push it or go for a record, then 11.8-12.0 and even then i give them a rich DD map.

you can make power going leaner, but i wouldnt do so without an EGT gauge....

and 11.5 is way to lean for 91oct IMO......i usually keep 91oct cars to 10.8-11

the 5whp gained from leaning out to 11.5 isnt worth the rise in EGT's.....and it also gets rid of a bunch of your safety factor if you get a turbo inlet leak and start to run lean.

On my personal car on 91+meth with 2 1.00mm meth nozzles i still run 10.8-11.2......

there is a discussion of it in this thread.....and this experiment by another member.

Just browse through dynocharts with AFR on them....you will see that dynocharts with large variances in AFR show no waviness in the power lines....this should be a huge telling factor that the AFR has little effect on power. In the thread linked below you can see it and follow our discussion on the lean AFR that the tuner chose to run.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2108343

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
Ron you are 100% right on the money. I was tuning my personal car today and felt like pushing the afrs for ****s and gigs. 23psi on an 18g with 11.5-11.6afrs showed 1700-1800 degree egts. Scared the piss out of me haha.

I dont care what the set up is 11.8afrs on pump is a melted piston waiting to happen

Last edited by Phatron; 02-25-2011 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:16 PM   #2285
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Not that im aware of....most e85 cars i will run ~11.5....if people are trying to push it or go for a record, then 11.8-12.0 and even then i give them a rich DD map.

you can make power going leaner, but i wouldnt do so without an EGT gauge....

and 11.5 is way to lean for 91oct IMO......i usually keep 91oct cars to 10.8-11

the 5whp gained from leaning out to 11.5 isnt worth the rise in EGT's.....and it also gets rid of a bunch of your safety factor if you get a turbo inlet leak and start to run lean.
hmm maybe my Wide band is out of calibration, ill have to check it next time I drive the car, its stored until the warmer weather comes along.

Ill be curious to see how my E85 tune comes out once its all said and done.
the reason I came to 12.5, was I am under the assumption you run a full point leaner than on standard fuel.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:25 PM   #2286
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The reason i am conservative with fueling is that its the only thing that can change by itself after it leaves my hands.

The boost can overboost, but i build in safety columns for that and the car will run way less timing and a richer AFR during an overboost.....

but there is nothing i can do to keep the AFR from leaning out if there is a leak....or if the D Range learning acquires a -5 to -10% value and starts leaning the car out at WOT......

Why not error on the side of caution....if someone wants 5whp more i will bump the boost 0.5 psi or add 0.5* of timing....
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:47 PM   #2287
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
The reason i am conservative with fueling is that its the only thing that can change by itself after it leaves my hands.

The boost can overboost, but i build in safety columns for that and the car will run way less timing and a richer AFR during an overboost.....

but there is nothing i can do to keep the AFR from leaning out if there is a leak....or if the D Range learning acquires a -5 to -10% value and starts leaning the car out at WOT......

Why not error on the side of caution....if someone wants 5whp more i will bump the boost 0.5 psi or add 0.5* of timing....
it makes perfect sense to me.
thanks for the explanation.

Last edited by jnorth85; 02-25-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:53 AM   #2288
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I wasn't aware that there was even the tiniest shred of evidence that the DW300 pump either reliable or unreliable. Where is this shred of evidence?
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:37 PM   #2289
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hmm maybe my Wide band is out of calibration, ill have to check it next time I drive the car, its stored until the warmer weather comes along.

Ill be curious to see how my E85 tune comes out once its all said and done.
the reason I came to 12.5, was I am under the assumption you run a full point leaner than on standard fuel.

you run a point leaner on race gas, but not e85.
e85 is not race gas. It is not gasoline based. e85 is 85%ethanol and 15% gasoline. Tuning e85 on a WBO2 calibrated for Fuel is an ok way to do things. It's better to use Lambda on alternative fuels. 0.78-.8 Lambda on e85 works very well and comes out to about 11.7:1 on a wbo2 calibrated for gasoline.

1 lambda is 14.7 on gasoline
1 lambda is 9:1 on ethanol
1 lambda is about 10:1 on e85.

.8 lambda is 20% rich which is common place for most fuels. So on e85, it's actually 8:1 when your gasoline calibrated WBO2 reads 11.7:1. Going leaner than that means you are running a little lean for e85.

The thing with e85 is that you can run leaner than needed for max power and still not knock. I have had a couple cars that weren't knocking, but when I enriched the mixture I gained 15whp.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:12 PM   #2290
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I ordered the Aeromotive pump, going to run it on 93 for now but thinking about e85 in the future. I think my walbro is going out its several years old so I figure I might as well upgrade with the aeromotive drop in.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:24 PM   #2291
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
you run a point leaner on race gas, but not e85.
e85 is not race gas. It is not gasoline based. e85 is 85%ethanol and 15% gasoline. Tuning e85 on a WBO2 calibrated for Fuel is an ok way to do things. It's better to use Lambda on alternative fuels. 0.78-.8 Lambda on e85 works very well and comes out to about 11.7:1 on a wbo2 calibrated for gasoline.

1 lambda is 14.7 on gasoline
1 lambda is 9:1 on ethanol
1 lambda is about 10:1 on e85.

.8 lambda is 20% rich which is common place for most fuels. So on e85, it's actually 8:1 when your gasoline calibrated WBO2 reads 11.7:1. Going leaner than that means you are running a little lean for e85.

The thing with e85 is that you can run leaner than needed for max power and still not knock. I have had a couple cars that weren't knocking, but when I enriched the mixture I gained 15whp.
1.0 lambda is stoich or 14.7 in afr, any way you look at it... Afr is calculated using lambda... It's not like it changes for E85... If your wideband is reading 1.0 lambda on E85 and you switch it to afr units (still running E85) , it will go from 1.0 lambda to 14.7 afr. On standard pump gas it's safe to run a 11.0 Afr (which is .75 lambda) at wot, Without making any changes to my wideband E85 it is perfectly safe to run a 11.75 afr (.80 lambda). Yes .80 lambda is leaner than .75 lambda. Maxxwelpower would you say that is not almost a full point leaner?

I do not understand why you guys are making it so complicated. On a regular old wideband 11.75 afr is perfect target for wot on E85, 11.0 Afr perfect target on gasoline . The wideband doesn't start reading all funky on E85, it works just fine no changes. All this 1.0 lambda is this for that fuel and something else for a different fuel is garbage... I cruise at 1.0 lambda on E85, I'm not cruising at 10.0 afr, and my wide band tells me I'm not , it reads 14.7 when I switch it to afr. The wideband is reading the mixture , it doesn't lie!

Whoever came up with these "E85 is running at 10.0 afr at 1.0 lambda" must have been way over analyzing Ethanol and E85, were they thinking because we are using 25-30% more fuel that the mixture was that much richer than the gasoline mixtures? I don't think so because, If I take 14.7afr and take and add 30% I come up with 10.25afr, coincidence I think not!!

Check it out, If your using a vehicle that is flex fuel and trying to set up the tune this E85 @ 10.0afr = stoich thing makes sense. Your running gasoline and your flex fuel vehicle is targeting 14.7 afr. You stop grab a full tank of E85 Your vehicle can't keep targeting 14.7 or it won't have enough fuel. So the tune (ecu) targets 10.0 afr and it gives the vehicle 30% more fuel for the E85 in the tank. While the tune (ecu) is targeting 10.0 afr , it is really cruising at 14.7 afr . Is anyone following this?

So in my opinion the 1.0 lambda = 10.0 afr on E85 thing is only to be used by people tuning flex fuel vehicles. Since our "injector scaling for E85" trick takes care of us subarus, we don't even need to think of those wierd e85 = different afr calculations...

What's up boys never thought that deep on the subject huh?

Last edited by TDagen; 02-26-2011 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:25 PM   #2292
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:27 PM   #2293
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1.0 lambda is stoich or 14.7 in afr, any way you look at it... Afr is calculated using lambda... It's not like it changes for E85...

Wrong about this. It DOES change.
WBO2 sensors read lambda. The value that is output (14.7:1 or whatever) is a ratio of lamba based on the fuel you are using.

IT DOES change based on which fuel.

14.7:1 on gasoline is actually 10:1 on e85. both equal 1.0 Lambda.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:30 PM   #2294
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I do not understand why you guys are making it so complicated. On a regular old wideband 11.75 afr is perfect target for wot on E85, 11.0 Afr perfect target on gasoline . The wideband doesn't start reading all funky on E85, it works just fine no changes. All this 1.0 lambda is this for that fuel and something else for a different fuel is garbage... I cruise at 1.0 lambda on E85, I'm not cruising at 10.0 afr, and my wide band tells me I'm not , it reads 14.7 when I switch it to afr. The wideband is reading the mixture , it doesn't lie!
yes it does lie. Again, it is based on what fuel you told the gauge to report AFR in. If you went into the LC1 and told it you were running ethanol, it would report a different afr (closer to 9:1) at stoich. the same voltage at 14.7 gasoline, the same voltage as 1 lambda.

the sensor reads lambda.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:30 PM   #2295
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law?^^^sounds good to me.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:34 PM   #2296
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Wrong about this. It DOES change.
WBO2 sensors read lambda. The value that is output (14.7:1 or whatever) is a ratio of lamba based on the fuel you are using.

IT DOES change based on which fuel.

14.7:1 on gasoline is actually 10:1 on e85. both equal 1.0 Lambda.
If I'm running a 14.7 afr on E85 and change the unit of the wideband to lambda it will read 1.0 lambda ... I've done it about 5 times now. Are you saying I'm a liar?
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:35 PM   #2297
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Check it out, If your using a vehicle that is flex fuel and trying to set up the tune this E85 @ 10.0afr = stoich thing makes sense. Your running gasoline and your flex fuel vehicle is targeting 14.7 afr. You stop grab a full tank of E85 Your vehicle can't keep targeting 14.7 or it won't have enough fuel. So the tune (ecu) targets 10.0 afr and it gives the vehicle 30% more fuel for the E85 in the tank. While the tune (ecu) is targeting 10.0 afr , it is really cruising at 14.7 afr . Is anyone following this?
still incorrect.

The ecu doesn't look for 14.7. the ecu looks for Lambda. So regardless of the fuel you use, the ecu is searching for lambda. If you switch to e85, you have to run 25% richer to achieve lambda. The ecu does that automatically.

The only MAJOR difference between our ecus and flex fuel is that we get a CEL if we have a correction greater than 15%. Flex fuel vehicles monitor ethanol concentration in the fuel and get a set of variable parameters based on that. If the concentration of ethanol is high and the ecu has to add 25% to hit Lambda 1, then it knows that it's correct in the fuel and there aren't any faults. If the ecu has to add 50% to get lambda 1 and the ethanol concentration matches e85, then it knows there is a problem and that would trigger a "system to lean" CEL.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:36 PM   #2298
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If I'm running a 14.7 afr on E85 and change the unit of the wideband to lambda it will read 1.0 lambda ... I've done it about 5 times now. Are you saying I'm a liar?
not at all. I'm saying you don't understand your indications.

It will absolutely say 14.7. but it isn't. It's actually 10:1.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:37 PM   #2299
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Maxwwellpower the lc1 wideband reads that way to help you tune a flex fuel vehicle on E85.. That's the only reason you can change it over to E85 afrs IMO ...
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:41 PM   #2300
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not at all. I'm saying you don't understand your indications.

It will absolutely say 14.7. but it isn't. It's actually 10:1.
I'm goin to agree to disagree with you. I want to hear some others thoughts on the subject. Btw I know that widebands use lambda to calculate afr I didn't just fall off the wagon
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