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Old 04-19-2020, 04:20 AM   #176
spoolinsti05
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
sixteen thousanths, awesome

you could jiggle the rods back and forth on that clearance

There's cupholders that have a better fit
I left a 0 out when typing ha. You think my **** would have that oil pressure with what I listed? If so you're dumber then I thought... Hahaha

Guess that 0 I left out really set you all up for that one huh...

Shows how much you pay attention bueller bueller
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Old 04-19-2020, 07:54 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by spoolinsti05 View Post
You know I started to type a great explanation of everything. Then I deleted it all..

But I'll say this my **** runs good with great oil pressure. And I'll end it with why do you even care? Because you want to be right all the time?

That's what I get from your posts in fact most of them. So I won't even get into why what or how with you. Because you can go do some research...
You said so little, yet so much.
Why do I care? Because of what I've already said to you that seems to go in one ear and out the other. I've invested ten years in NASIOC. I've contributed and shared the best knowledge I have. I don't just spew things out of a diarrhea mouth every chance I get. I don't disseminate wrong or half-baked content all the time. I want to help people, not confuse them or send them down the wrong path. This may be why you perceive me wanting to be right all the time?
I see many others complaining to you and you seem oblivious to Peer Pressure. You ignore us and seem to double-down on your blather. You are rude and obscene in response and you've gotten away with it so far.

I've complained to the moderators and they don't seem to care about quality of content. Some say NASIOC is history. If so, you are part of the reason why. Who wants to wade through a lot of garbage? You set a bad example. The uninitiated, seeking advice, don't know better and believe you.

So, I'm your vigilante moderator. If you stay, I'm asking you to go to the open discussions area and be as opinionated as you want and spout off all you want, but stay the hell out of all technical discussions and the built motor discussion area! Perhaps the Moderators will finally get it that you are hurting the credibility of NASIOC.
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Old 04-19-2020, 09:33 AM   #178
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Riiiiighhhhttttt. Okay! Whatever you say..

You're just a negative person...

I'd rather not associate with someone like you. You're a poison. Honestly.

I've helped many on this forum.

I've provided plenty here. If anything you and your "click" feel the need to always bring negativity into the threads...

Anyways... Do you boo boo..

Last edited by spoolinsti05; 04-19-2020 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 04-19-2020, 02:38 PM   #179
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Why didn't anyone do the obvious and ask if he was measuring in mm or that he left a zero out?

You guys are like cats and dogs.
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Old 04-19-2020, 04:54 PM   #180
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You said so little, yet so much.
Why do I care? Because of what I've already said to you that seems to go in one ear and out the other. I've invested ten years in NASIOC. I've contributed and shared the best knowledge I have. I don't just spew things out of a diarrhea mouth every chance I get. I don't disseminate wrong or half-baked content all the time. I want to help people, not confuse them or send them down the wrong path. This may be why you perceive me wanting to be right all the time?
I see many others complaining to you and you seem oblivious to Peer Pressure. You ignore us and seem to double-down on your blather. You are rude and obscene in response and you've gotten away with it so far.

I've complained to the moderators and they don't seem to care about quality of content. Some say NASIOC is history. If so, you are part of the reason why. Who wants to wade through a lot of garbage? You set a bad example. The uninitiated, seeking advice, don't know better and believe you.

So, I'm your vigilante moderator. If you stay, I'm asking you to go to the open discussions area and be as opinionated as you want and spout off all you want, but stay the hell out of all technical discussions and the built motor discussion area! Perhaps the Moderators will finally get it that you are hurting the credibility of NASIOC.
+111111
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Old 04-20-2020, 09:06 AM   #181
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Why didn't anyone do the obvious and ask if he was measuring in mm or that he left a zero out?

You guys are like cats and dogs.
because the conversation was in English units and we knew he didn't leave a zero out, he just didn't have a clue. Then after we made a little fun of it he researched online to figure out what a clearance would really be and jumped back in and tried to spin the whole thing. . . . .yet again.

I really just wanted to see if he'd follow his typical procedure of:
post 100x's endlessly
blurt out something you clearly don't understand
get corrected by people with a clue
immediately get on youtube and google to investigate
then post several more bitter responses telling everyone they have no clue and correct your previous statement or dodge it all together and stick with nothing but bitter responses
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Old 04-20-2020, 09:11 AM   #182
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I left a 0 out when typing ha. You think my **** would have that oil pressure with what I listed? If so you're dumber then I thought... Hahaha

Guess that 0 I left out really set you all up for that one huh...

Shows how much you pay attention bueller bueller
I pay a lot of attention, which is why I don't believe you have any oil pressure on a 650hp motor you built because I don't believe you have it at all.
I have a 650hp vehicle and it is on a platform that was designed for that power and it is like a f-ing rocket, you can't even hold on in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear and 335 section rear tires won't even stay hooked up.
I don't believe for a nonosecond you have a 2.5 liter that makes that power let alone on a platform that couldn't even come close to streeting that power. And then you go and claim it's so streetable you cruise at 1000 rpm's?????
Mine is out of 6.2 liters and you can't cruise at 1000 rpm's.

straight BS
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Old 04-20-2020, 10:58 AM   #183
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I guess I'm part of the problem, but this is typical of threads that spooler gets involved with. People say "WHAT?" to his comments. People object and disagree and then the thread goes spinning out of control with spoofer using expletives, ad hominems and threats. Great for the community and content, right?

Micah is right, but even he has had run-in's with spoolin. He's been frustrated too.
Only Chris has kept his cool throughout, AFAIK.

I ask the moderators over and over to consider the harm done. I hope others are bugging the moderators as well. We don't need his inaccuracies and BS. I'd like to see technical discussions stay on track, have decent content and not be packed with comments of someone who just wants to go off on a tangent and suck all the oxygen out of the discussion while getting everyone inflamed.
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Old 04-20-2020, 12:30 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I guess I'm part of the problem, but this is typical of threads that spooler gets involved with. People say "WHAT?" to his comments. People object and disagree and then the thread goes spinning out of control with spoofer using expletives, ad hominems and threats. Great for the community and content, right?

Micah is right, but even he has had run-in's with spoolin. He's been frustrated too.
Only Chris has kept his cool throughout, AFAIK.

I ask the moderators over and over to consider the harm done. I hope others are bugging the moderators as well. We don't need his inaccuracies and BS. I'd like to see technical discussions stay on track, have decent content and not be packed with comments of someone who just wants to go off on a tangent and suck all the oxygen out of the discussion while getting everyone inflamed.
Just like thermonuclear warfare, the only way to win is to not play.

The few times I've interacted with spooling haven't been bad, but I also haven't taken any bait when it comes to questioning my statements.

Reminds me of a meme I saw once.

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Old 04-21-2020, 01:15 AM   #185
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Why didn't anyone do the obvious and ask if he was measuring in mm or that he left a zero out?

You guys are like cats and dogs.
They really are ruthless lol. It's what makes me think they have spent a lot of time in OT threads. My information is correct and comes form many accurate sources with experience in the field. Not a back yard mechanic that can't find his 10mm.

Let alone put 2 and 2 together about having 20psi oil pressure with .0016 mains and .0018 rods. @1k rpm idle. If it was in fact .016 the oil light would be on with like 5psi pressure.

I break 4 245/45/17 drag radials loose @60mph.. on 22psi air pressure. 28psi boost. With 36psi on boost to spare. Boost cut is 38psi it was tuned to that etune. By Jr. Had it down do to fuel pressure issue. That I recently fixed.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:46 AM   #186
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From what I understand the 10mm head oil pump isnít that strong. I believe itís the spring inside . Ok on std cars but not drag or race cars . I believe 11 mm head is used to Maintain or improve pressure. The screw on the back of the pump apparently come loose also so thatís another factor in lost oil pressure. I think you can go 12mm as well with different gears in the pump . Expensive in some cases for upgrades
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Old 04-21-2020, 08:10 AM   #187
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Let alone put 2 and 2 together about having 20psi oil pressure with .0016 mains and .0018 rods. @1k rpm idle.
So this motor is so incapable of idling decent you need a 1000 rpm idle, and it's so streetable you can cruise on the street at 1000 rpm's??

This is all according to you thus far.

yep, keeps on making sense.

(btw, nobody thinks you'd have 20psi with .016 clearance, you missed the whole thing. It's believing you have any of this at all. The reason is due to all of the blatant inconsistencies in your story and direct contradictions and off the wall technical statements you make that you won't even attempt to explain)
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Old 04-21-2020, 08:56 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Rick2020 View Post
From what I understand the 10mm head oil pump isnít that strong. I believe itís the spring inside . Ok on std cars but not drag or race cars . I believe 11 mm head is used to Maintain or improve pressure. The screw on the back of the pump apparently come loose also so thatís another factor in lost oil pressure. I think you can go 12mm as well with different gears in the pump . Expensive in some cases for upgrades
The 10mm and 12mm have the same bypass pressure rating spring that should target ~85psi on most engines, built or otherwise. 11mm is 75psi.
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:03 PM   #189
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The 10mm and 12mm have the same bypass pressure rating spring that should target ~85psi on most engines, built or otherwise. 11mm is 75psi.
I know your recommendations are for 10mm pumps and I think you are trying to address people's needs with stock short blocks. I respect that.
I have some built, 400+ HP, AVCS engines and I won't run smaller than a ported 11mm, and I'll add one shim. Some people (like me) building their own SB's may not run tolerances so tight. I've built mine a bit looser, and for my DAVCS high RPM, road race engine, I run a 12mm ported pump. That pump might not need another shim for most DAVCS people, but I'm running the external pressure relief valve so I aim for 85 PSI and adjust it accordingly. My -10AN bypass hose goes into your oil pan so I'm not so concerned with the pump bypassing oil. It's worked for me.
Did you intentionally not mention shimming pumps? I thought shimming a 10mm was considered the "norm".
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Old 04-21-2020, 07:44 PM   #190
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My current block has a stock 11mm pump, non avcs heads, but the builder stated there are oiling mods and clearances are larger than oem. Initially I didn't want the 11mm because the previous block I "built" had stock bearing clearances and the first pump I used was an 11, idle pressure was 35-40 warm and more cold. I didn't want it constantly bypassing at higher revs and possibly heating the oil more and/or aerating it.

I don't believe in using shims as the spring has a set tension and the shims just push it a little further into the plunger. I don't believe it's a progressive rate spring. People shim them but I'm not confident it's a worthwhile mod.
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Old 04-21-2020, 08:41 PM   #191
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I don't believe in using shims as the spring has a set tension and the shims just push it a little further into the plunger. I don't believe it's a progressive rate spring. People shim them but I'm not confident it's a worthwhile mod.
It is a constant force spring. I have measured some variances in length (up to 1mm shorter), though they are generally all very close to the same length, regardless as to whether they are 10 or 11mm pumps. My experience is they all have a 1mm shim, as new. Why? Why aren't the springs 1mm longer?
The effect of additional shims would be to delay the event where bypass starts, and increase maximum pressure. If one shim added increases the pressure by 5 PSI the another shim would increase it another 5 PSI.
I have not evaluated this, but it might be possible that at maximum bypass the additional shims would prevent the bypass from fully opening, thereby upping oil pressure more at the extremes of the pump's flow rate. If coil-bind occurs the pressure could go up more. I have no idea if this is possible with two or three additional shims. I've seen no crazy maximum pressures from adding one shim.
I will look into this, as I have a bunch of pumps apart.

Last edited by Scargod; 04-22-2020 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Hopefully making statement easier to understand...
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Old 04-21-2020, 09:09 PM   #192
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Agreed. I was not thinking about it being a constant force spring, which it is. I have measured some variances in length, though they are generally all the same length. They all have a 1mm shim. Why?
So it seems the only effect shims would have is coil bind if too many were used in a maximum flow condition at higher RPM's. I have not evaluated this, but it might be possible that at maximum bypass the additional shims would prevent the bypass from fully opening, thereby upping oil pressure at the extremes of flow rates. As coil-bind starts to occur the rates can go up. I will look into this, as I have a bunch of pumps apart.
The shim may be there to limit how far the piston moves, in case it gets stuck open, to prevent total loss of oil pressure.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:31 AM   #193
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I know your recommendations are for 10mm pumps and I think you are trying to address people's needs with stock short blocks. I respect that.
I have some built, 400+ HP, AVCS engines and I won't run smaller than a ported 11mm, and I'll add one shim. Some people (like me) building their own SB's may not run tolerances so tight. I've built mine a bit looser, and for my DAVCS high RPM, road race engine, I run a 12mm ported pump. That pump might not need another shim for most DAVCS people, but I'm running the external pressure relief valve so I aim for 85 PSI and adjust it accordingly. My -10AN bypass hose goes into your oil pan so I'm not so concerned with the pump bypassing oil. It's worked for me.
Did you intentionally not mention shimming pumps? I thought shimming a 10mm was considered the "norm".
Whenever I talk to other builders and we discuss and compare build strategies, clearances is always a hot topic. I always end the discussions with 'if you have a recipe that has historically worked well for you and gives reliable results, don't change it based on what we do'. I think everyone has taken different paths to enlightenment, and there's nothing wrong with that if it works for you and your application.

When it comes to the engine's oiling needs the FSM really hit the nail on the head. In short, to need a bigger pump you'd have to be in excess of all the service limits for nearly all the oiling related clearances... including the pump itself. At this is when pressure generally falls below that 14 psi idle line in the sand. It's well documented in higher mileage stuff. For those that build engines, the general consensus is that most clearances are well within the service limits, run new (or inspected) oil pumps, and are nowhere near bleeding out enough oil to require a larger pump... even with larger main clearances. Most of us with built engines are also running higher idle as well so we're not so close to that bottom threshold of oil pump efficiency, which further improves the oiling system performance at idle; not uncommon for built engines with larger main clearances to have 0 hot psi oil pressure at the passenger side exhaust cam at factory idle RPM. Bumping idle to 900-1,000 can bring that up to 5-15 psi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
I don't believe in using shims as the spring has a set tension and the shims just push it a little further into the plunger. I don't believe it's a progressive rate spring. People shim them but I'm not confident it's a worthwhile mod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I will look into this, as I have a bunch of pumps apart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
The shim may be there to limit how far the piston moves, in case it gets stuck open, to prevent total loss of oil pressure.
So I have 20 or so used pumps here, and who knows how many have just been tossed in the trash over the years. Some new, and some aftermarket ones too. OEM pumps (no matter what size) can come with 0, 1, or 2 shims all within the same size. Unless you're in the room with the design engineer when the decision was made, we're all just speculating... So let me throw in my bit of speculation here based on our experiences. Different springs and shim combinations are used to target the factory bypass pressure range. There's no FSM spring rate like for IN/EXH valve springs, but the factory likely has a range for the assembly to be within spec. Is the factory using different spring suppliers? Is there tolerance accumulation variables of the assembly that requires shims to be used to hit target pressure? Did Subaru change the oil spec from 10w30 to 5w20? Maybe these are all true, maybe none?

I don't like shims. You have a fixed hydraulic force/flow (linear positive displacement pump) pushing a spring through a working 'range'. If you compress the spring beyond that range there will be excessive wear in the form of fatigue. In other words, the spring force will weaken over time. In some extreme cases, you will see excess wear on the spring seat surfaces and even spring failure.

Remember, the amount of oil going through the pump does not change, only the amount going through the engine and bypass changes. If you total ALL the Engine's oil clearances (all bearing and journal), size of the turbo feed, and so on, it gives a number; a range actually (min/max values). If you do the same exercise at ALL the service limits, calculate output losses for a worn pump you will see what your excess pump capacity is. Of course there is some subjectivity here as and engine is a dynamic system, but this is a good exercise to get an understanding of how clearances and modifications can effect the oiling system. Do the same exercise for YOUR engine and you'll see where you fall within this window.

The excess capacity is not linear like the pump gears, but follows the spring. This is why I personally like to target a pump that will open the bypass the least amount. It gives lower parasitic losses compared to an upsized pump, adds the least amount of additional heat to the oil, and greatly reduces the probability of high RPM aeration that can occur if too much flow is available (poor bypass port flow characteristics). The reality of it is you can't really do this. The pump will ideally bypass 10% at 3,000 RPM, 20% at 5,000RPM and 40% at 7,000 RPMs. Built engines will generally be + or - 10% to the FSM median cumulative engine clearance. Still well within the capabilities of the factory supplied pump for that engine. this is why I've only seen a need to upsize a pump with conditions that are outside the norm.

So what does upsizing to 10% more flow (10-11mm pump) do? It can reduce pressure if you don't match 10mm relief parts, or increase wear if you add shims. It can add some pressure, but will also bypass more oil. I'm not saying upsizing is bad, I just see more downsized than upsides to doing it.

Again, let me reiterate... This was part of my path for being where we are with the built engines we have. If you have a recipe that has shown reliable success, don't change a thing!
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Old 04-22-2020, 12:54 PM   #194
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... For those that build engines, the general consensus is that most clearances are well within the service limits, run new (or inspected) oil pumps, and are nowhere near bleeding out enough oil to require a larger pump... even with larger main clearances....

I don't like shims. You have a fixed hydraulic force/flow (linear positive displacement pump) pushing a spring through a working 'range'. If you compress the spring beyond that range there will be excessive wear in the form of fatigue. In other words, the spring force will weaken over time. In some extreme cases, you will see excess wear on the spring seat surfaces and even spring failure.

...The pump will ideally bypass 10% at 3,000 RPM, 20% at 5,000RPM and 40% at 7,000 RPMs. Built engines will generally be + or - 10% to the FSM median cumulative engine clearance. Still well within the capabilities of the factory supplied pump for that engine. this is why I've only seen a need to upsize a pump with conditions that are outside the norm.

So what does upsizing to 10% more flow (10-11mm pump) do? It can reduce pressure if you don't match 10mm relief parts, or increase wear if you add shims. It can add some pressure, but will also bypass more oil. I'm not saying upsizing is bad, I just see more downsized than upsides to doing it.
Built engines! 500-600 HP/lots of torque!. Don't we want 85 PSI minimum? Don't some like 100? How do most accomplish this without multiple shims (or a bigger pump)? 20-50 WT racing oil?
I idle at 1,000-1,100 RPMs. What pressures do you like to see when you've got 450 FPT or more?
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Old 04-22-2020, 01:26 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by spoolinsti05 View Post
I break 4 245/45/17 drag radials loose @60mph.. on 22psi air pressure. 28psi boost. With 36psi on boost to spare. Boost cut is 38psi it was tuned to that etune. By Jr. Had it down do to fuel pressure issue. That I recently fixed.
gravel and snow don't count.
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Old 04-22-2020, 02:44 PM   #196
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Built engines! 500-600 HP/lots of torque!. Don't we want 85 PSI minimum? Don't some like 100? How do most accomplish this without multiple shims (or a bigger pump)? 20-50 WT racing oil?
I idle at 1,000-1,100 RPMs. What pressures do you like to see when you've got 450 FPT or more?
85 psi at what RPM? I'm happy at 80-85 at HOT (240-250į) temps at redline.

What is the benefit of providing 100 psi if 85 does the same thing? I've done some oiling things over the years; one engine made 47 hot psi at redline and when it came apart for a refresh it had no oiling issues. As long as the bearings are getting the proper supply of oil, that's all that matters. The pressure of the oil doesn't keep the crank from contacting the bearing surfaces, the oil does. As long as the oil wedge is there in the correct amount all is well.

We use 15w50 on big power builds, pressure is marginally higher as you'd expect. Load capability is as well, also as you'd expect. The caveat is that we give ample warm up time to make sure everything has started to thermally stabilize before flogging.

~30psi at idle 900-1,000 RPMs build dependent.

I see guys running 100 and even 120psi oil pressures. Drag applications with B-I-G power usually. They tend to run much larger clearances too; again this goes back to the .002% where this makes sense. A drag car never really thermally stabilizes. It's thermally unstable as there's virtually no load, and then ALL the load for 8-10 seconds. The block temp is schizophrenic compared to a road coarse car

At ~150psi (hot or cold) the pumps tend to pop. Running 100-120psi as a 'normal' target pressure I would expect pump life to be diminished, and your cold pressure is knocking on its mechanical limit. I've never had a pump fail on me, but it's an exciting (and expensive) event I'd rather not experience.
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Old 04-22-2020, 03:29 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
85 psi at what RPM? I'm happy at 80-85 at HOT (240-250į) temps at redline.

What is the benefit of providing 100 psi if 85 does the same thing? I've done some oiling things over the years; one engine made 47 hot psi at redline and when it came apart for a refresh it had no oiling issues. As long as the bearings are getting the proper supply of oil, that's all that matters. The pressure of the oil doesn't keep the crank from contacting the bearing surfaces, the oil does. As long as the oil wedge is there in the correct amount all is well.

We use 15w50 on big power builds, pressure is marginally higher as you'd expect. Load capability is as well, also as you'd expect. The caveat is that we give ample warm up time to make sure everything has started to thermally stabilize before flogging.

~30psi at idle 900-1,000 RPMs build dependent.

I see guys running 100 and even 120psi oil pressures. Drag applications with B-I-G power usually. They tend to run much larger clearances too; again this goes back to the .002% where this makes sense. A drag car never really thermally stabilizes. It's thermally unstable as there's virtually no load, and then ALL the load for 8-10 seconds. The block temp is schizophrenic compared to a road coarse car

At ~150psi (hot or cold) the pumps tend to pop. Running 100-120psi as a 'normal' target pressure I would expect pump life to be diminished, and your cold pressure is knocking on its mechanical limit. I've never had a pump fail on me, but it's an exciting (and expensive) event I'd rather not experience.

In for some feedback, I currently idle at 12-17~ psi hot idle (oil dependent) and 60-70~ psi at 3k rpm highway cruise. On a built motor with 11mm pump running your oil pickup. Do you think that hot idle is a bit low?

I noticed with Motul Xcess 5w40 I hot idle from 12-14psi
with Rotella T6 5w40 hot idle is about 15-17psi
In general with Motul, the oil pressure has been lower overall.
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Old 04-22-2020, 10:23 PM   #198
KillerBMotorsport
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In for some feedback, I currently idle at 12-17~ psi hot idle (oil dependent) and 60-70~ psi at 3k rpm highway cruise. On a built motor with 11mm pump running your oil pickup. Do you think that hot idle is a bit low?

I noticed with Motul Xcess 5w40 I hot idle from 12-14psi
with Rotella T6 5w40 hot idle is about 15-17psi
In general with Motul, the oil pressure has been lower overall.
What location are you measuring the pressure at?
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Old 04-23-2020, 01:21 AM   #199
GK1707
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What location are you measuring the pressure at?
I have a sensor in the oil pressure switch location below the alternator that sends it to a pro sport oil pressure gauge.
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Old 04-23-2020, 06:41 AM   #200
stu
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I have a sensor in the oil pressure switch location below the alternator that senMds it to a pro sport oil pressure gauge.
What sensor are you using? try a 50wt.
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