Water/Methanol Injection FAQ - Page 2

Jaxx · 02-28-2006, 12:36 AM

couple of questions
1-i am using a speed density ecu (tec2)
should the nozzle be installed before or after the intake temp sensor

2- if i went for a non progressive pump (i can trigger it with the tec at a given boost/rpm setting) what pressure/rpm should i trigger it

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Davenow · 02-28-2006, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxx

couple of questions
1-i am using a speed density ecu (tec2)
should the nozzle be installed before or after the intake temp sensor

2- if i went for a non progressive pump (i can trigger it with the tec at a given boost/rpm setting) what pressure/rpm should i trigger it

1. No idea. Not even going to guess and risk F'ing you up.

2. It really depends. RPM doesnt matter, because at way low RPM you arent going to be into the boost enough (and if you ARE, you would want the spray anyway)
Basically its up to you as far as what pressure. For a non progressive setup I would say something over 8 PSI. I would try having it kick on at 10PSI. Thing is, you will need to be spraying a good dose for it to really help t its potential at higher boost, so you need to be moving a good amount of air when it kicks in. I mean you can pull a bunch of fuel out at lower boost, but you still have to compromise on how much mixture you are spraying. This is why I hate non progressive setups. They work, but its a much less elegant solution. Its like an assasin using a shotgun instead of a sniper rifle.
Set it to come on at ANY rpm, just have it come on at 10PSI. See how it runs like that (obviously tune for it) then try spraying at 8PSI and see how that goes.

It also matters how much mix you want to use. I know a couple guys with SMC kits that dont start spraying till 12PSI and ramp to max by 15. They fill their tank and it lasts FOREVER. Are they giving up power and spool down low? Definately. But they are getting the detonation protection where it matters most. High boost. I personally have mine set to start spraying at about 6PSI. I get about 2 tanks of gas per fillup.

Ultimate Collision Center · 02-28-2006, 01:24 AM

I am pretty sure you would want to spray after the sensor. You want to put the nozzle about 5 to 8 inches at most from the TB. I can get you a full explanation about why you want to put afterwards I just need to talk to my buddy, I am pretty sure thats what he advised me to do when I switch over to speed density this month on my evo.

Ultimate Collision Center · 02-28-2006, 01:32 AM

Now that I think about it yea I am definitely right that you want to spray afterwards. The only benefit to spraying before would be fooling your ecu to run more timing due to cooler IAT (in most cases). This does produce gains but its not ideal in getting the most out of alky. I would suggest doing it afterwards that way your ecu does its thing and alky does its as well.

phatfish · 02-28-2006, 11:27 PM

A friend made this when I told him about injection.

Thought some might get a kick out of it.

Also let me add that this thread was EXTREMELY helpful in my research. Many thanks.

Davenow · 03-01-2006, 12:01 AM

tell your friend to back away from the crackpipe.

And head to OT. We can always use more photoshoppers

Davenow · 03-02-2006, 01:20 PM

It seems like somehow I am missing parts up there.
here is what I cant seem to find.
What happens if the kit fails while under hard boost? Well, to be quite honest, there is a very real chance that you will lose the motor. In fact, if tuned agressively, its an almost certainty. The reason is that even if you map as conservatively as possible, you will be pulling out MASSIVE amounts of fuel from your fuel maps to get back to a normal A/F. If you are tuned to 11.5ish-1, and it fails, you will end up at like 17-1. Imagine being at 18PSI, and all the sudden going to 17-1. If tuned agressively, well, forget it. Bad things are almost certainly going to happen.

OMG this sounds WAY to dangerous to run!! Yes and no. I have yet to hear of any failures, other than 1 or 2, where it was determined to 100% be user error in the installation or way back in the day where a pump failed because it wasnt made to pump alcohol and the seals died. In the case of the pump dieing, it was discovered before any boost, and the motor was not damaged. Most of these kits are VERY well tested. SMC, Aquamist, Coolingmist and a few others have been doing this a LONG time before it hit the Subaru market. And the turbo buick guys have been running this over a decade.. If your EM can be set to be more sensative and more agressive regarding detonation (agressive as far as how much timing it pulls when it hears det), and you tune conservatively, your motor should have a fighting chance.

Really, if installed correctly, it is very reliable and you shouldnt really worry too much.

So whats the difference between an "agressive" tune and a "conservative" tune? A conservative tune would be ONLY fuel tuning, to get back to the same a/f's you would run if not on alch injection.

An agressive tune would be something like tuning to 12.5-1, upping the boost 2-4PSI and running a good bit more timing.

A Super conservative tune will yeild not nearly as much power increase, maybe 10whp if that, but a much smoother pull while it sprays and a MUCH MUCH lower tendancy to detonate. In fact you can be fairly sure you will NEVER det no matter what the weather conditions. You could probably get away with running gas of lower octane with no issues as well. I know for a fact you can run 91 octane on a 93 octane map with no detonation whatsoever with a tune like that. I never tried 89 but I am fairly sure it would have been fine, but with a crappier idle.

An aggressive tune will yeild a very nice power increase and is almost impossible to beat bang for the buck. On a "stage 2" STI I would expect minimum gains in the 25-35whp area with a tune like this, depending on how crazy you go.

Amazake · 03-03-2006, 07:19 PM

My advise to A.I. users is the BEST fail safe is yourself!

I have had a pump fail, I caught it, because I stayed aware.

aprazma · 03-05-2006, 05:21 AM

>I am not very mechanically proficient, which kit is easiest to install? SMC by far. It typically takes about 1 hour to unpack, install and get up and running.

It took the mechanic at Full Function *5 hours and 35 minutes* to install my SMC kit (not including any tuning, or even testing the pump to prime it and see if it worked). He started work at 10am and finished at 3:35pm.

Amazake · 03-05-2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aprazma

It took the mechanic at Full Function *5 hours and 35 minutes* to install my SMC kit (not including any tuning, or even testing the pump to prime it and see if it worked). He started work at 10am and finished at 3:35pm.

WOW, that is a long time. I guess that depends on where he put your controller. All I did was removing ashtray, and attach it there. But if you have a fancy placement I can understand the timetable.

Colin84 · 03-05-2006, 10:55 AM

It took me a good long while as well. About 5 hours IIRC. Then again my pump is mounted in the trunk sucking out of the stock intercooler sprayer tank. That required a bracket to be built to hold the pump, then run the wiring and pressure line up through the car, continue the pressure line into the engine compartment and extend the wiring by 4' to reach into the glove box where I mounted the controller which required a hole to be drilled in the bottom of the glove box. Once done I went back into the engine compartment and had to pull off the APS topmount (anyone who has one know's they're a biotch), drill the hole and reinstall.

Holy unorganized, run on sentances!
I obviously chose to make my setup a bit more complicated. It is totally stealth and unseeable.

Davenow · 03-05-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aprazma

>I am not very mechanically proficient, which kit is easiest to install? SMC by far. It typically takes about 1 hour to unpack, install and get up and running.

It took the mechanic at Full Function *5 hours and 35 minutes* to install my SMC kit (not including any tuning, or even testing the pump to prime it and see if it worked). He started work at 10am and finished at 3:35pm.

\

Unless you did something funky with the install, there is no way it should have taken him 5 hours.

edaniele1212 · 03-05-2006, 02:23 PM

wow great write up, all my Water/Methanol Injection questions answered...thanks

Ultimate Collision Center · 03-05-2006, 07:05 PM

Yea typical install from start to finish is usually in the 2-3 hour range if you have the right tools.

Ultimate Collision Center · 03-06-2006, 10:47 PM

Another bit of info that has been poping up, "where do I start my alky at, aka how many lbs of boost?" My starting point is about 1/3 full boost and work from there, some cars benefit from a little higher while some from a little lower.

bcblues · 03-07-2006, 01:01 AM

I would think that you would want to begin the alky/water injection BEFORE your torque peak, since that is when our motors are most sensitive to knock. In fact, I would think that an early, though smaller pulse early in the rpm range would really help the turbo spool up much quicker.

Davenow · 03-07-2006, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcblues

I would think that you would want to begin the alky/water injection BEFORE your torque peak, since that is when our motors are most sensitive to knock. In fact, I would think that an early, though smaller pulse early in the rpm range would really help the turbo spool up much quicker.

Yeah you def want it spraying before peak torque. Typically progressive setups are at full spray by then anyway, because you usually set the max point somewhere just a bit below full boost. I start mine at about 6PSI, and it is maxed by 17PSI and I run 20PSI peak boost.

dads_cruizzzer · 03-07-2006, 12:47 PM

My tuner I-Speed won't even tune with alky. Too risky he says. I see his point of view and I don't blame him.

Here's my situation. Since my last tune, I will or have replaced some parts:

1. replaced STi tmic with larger Spearco tmic
2. replaced Sti header with GT Spec header
3. replace OEM STi catback with full 3" catback
4. replace OEM turbo inlet hose with APS turbo inlet pipe
5. replace OEM filter with K&N panel filter

By just replacing items 1 and 2, I've experienced a considerable power increase. I imagine that after replacing items 3 and 4 that I will again gain even more power. I am concerned that by replacing these items that my tune has gone from a conservative to an agressive tune, enough for me to worry about det. Is there a concern here or not?

My question now is, 'assuming' that no legitimate tuner will tune to AI, will it still benefit me to install AI without tuning, just to avoid det? Why do I have a feeling that was a dumb question...

bcblues · 03-07-2006, 02:11 PM

dads: I think you are incorrect in your assumption that "no legitimate tuner will tune to AI". There are plenty. Having said that, since I-Speed is uncomfortable with it, good for them for being up front and telling you that they will not do it. There are some good reasons why AI may not be the right thing for YOU to do, particularly on a daily driven car. But in the end, there is little doubt that AI is a great tool for cooling the intake charge, raising the octane rating, and buffering the combustion. Without engine management, I think that you really cannot harness the potential for ANY AI system. My 2 cents.

Davenow · 03-07-2006, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dads_cruizzzer

My tuner I-Speed won't even tune with alky. Too risky he says. I see his point of view and I don't blame him.

Here's my situation. Since my last tune, I will or have replaced some parts:

1. replaced STi tmic with larger Spearco tmic
2. replaced Sti header with GT Spec header
3. replace OEM STi catback with full 3" catback
4. replace OEM turbo inlet hose with APS turbo inlet pipe
5. replace OEM filter with K&N panel filter

By just replacing items 1 and 2, I've experienced a considerable power increase. I imagine that after replacing items 3 and 4 that I will again gain even more power. I am concerned that by replacing these items that my tune has gone from a conservative to an agressive tune, enough for me to worry about det. Is there a concern here or not?

My question now is, 'assuming' that no legitimate tuner will tune to AI, will it still benefit me to install AI without tuning, just to avoid det? Why do I have a feeling that was a dumb question...

Ispeed is the ONLY legit tuner I have seen that refuses to tune alch injection.
Find another tuner. Its not that risky if you tune it right.

Dont waste your time replacing the panel filter. Either go to a good quality intake (APS cai or K&N Typhoon) or stick with the stock. The paper flows PLENTY, dont buy into the marketing crap that only leaves you with a filter that doesnt do as good of a job keeping dirt out.

Davenow · 03-07-2006, 08:17 PM

As far as running without EM, I dont care what Coolingmist says.
In the load sites where I wasnt tuned for it, I was hitting 8.1-1. That is not only FAR too rich, but also is dangerous. Bore wash will kill your motor in short order.

Silverpike · 03-08-2006, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkeyPunch

I'll have to check around here, there are so many oil suppliers in Southeastern CT. THanks Dave

DP

Any chance I can nominate my thread to add to the list of links? I think it contains some references not found in your original list:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=927288

DonkeyPunch · 03-26-2006, 06:56 PM

Sorry I haven't answered some questions, I have been out to sea. The Navy tends to do that to you...

I will try to sit down this week and answer some of of the questions still out there on this subject that I didn't cover in the first post

DP

azn2nr · 03-27-2006, 10:48 PM

i dont have em (yet) and am running really lean. would an untuned controler based kit help me out on a 25% alcky mix??

Ultimate Collision Center · 03-27-2006, 10:51 PM

Do you have wideband o2?

02-28-2006, 11:27 PM	#30
phatfish Scooby Newbie Member#: 67108 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Denver, CO Vehicle: 2003 wrx sonic yellow	A friend made this when I told him about injection. Thought some might get a kick out of it. Also let me add that this thread was EXTREMELY helpful in my research. Many thanks. Last edited by phatfish; 02-28-2006 at 11:52 PM.

03-02-2006, 01:20 PM	#32
Davenow Scooby Guru Member#: 23676 Join Date: Aug 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: de_dust and Orgrimar Vehicle: .	It seems like somehow I am missing parts up there. here is what I cant seem to find. What happens if the kit fails while under hard boost? Well, to be quite honest, there is a very real chance that you will lose the motor. In fact, if tuned agressively, its an almost certainty. The reason is that even if you map as conservatively as possible, you will be pulling out MASSIVE amounts of fuel from your fuel maps to get back to a normal A/F. If you are tuned to 11.5ish-1, and it fails, you will end up at like 17-1. Imagine being at 18PSI, and all the sudden going to 17-1. If tuned agressively, well, forget it. Bad things are almost certainly going to happen. OMG this sounds WAY to dangerous to run!! Yes and no. I have yet to hear of any failures, other than 1 or 2, where it was determined to 100% be user error in the installation or way back in the day where a pump failed because it wasnt made to pump alcohol and the seals died. In the case of the pump dieing, it was discovered before any boost, and the motor was not damaged. Most of these kits are VERY well tested. SMC, Aquamist, Coolingmist and a few others have been doing this a LONG time before it hit the Subaru market. And the turbo buick guys have been running this over a decade.. If your EM can be set to be more sensative and more agressive regarding detonation (agressive as far as how much timing it pulls when it hears det), and you tune conservatively, your motor should have a fighting chance. Really, if installed correctly, it is very reliable and you shouldnt really worry too much. So whats the difference between an "agressive" tune and a "conservative" tune? A conservative tune would be ONLY fuel tuning, to get back to the same a/f's you would run if not on alch injection. An agressive tune would be something like tuning to 12.5-1, upping the boost 2-4PSI and running a good bit more timing. A Super conservative tune will yeild not nearly as much power increase, maybe 10whp if that, but a much smoother pull while it sprays and a MUCH MUCH lower tendancy to detonate. In fact you can be fairly sure you will NEVER det no matter what the weather conditions. You could probably get away with running gas of lower octane with no issues as well. I know for a fact you can run 91 octane on a 93 octane map with no detonation whatsoever with a tune like that. I never tried 89 but I am fairly sure it would have been fine, but with a crappier idle. An aggressive tune will yeild a very nice power increase and is almost impossible to beat bang for the buck. On a "stage 2" STI I would expect minimum gains in the 25-35whp area with a tune like this, depending on how crazy you go. Last edited by Davenow; 03-04-2006 at 03:39 AM.

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02-28-2006, 12:36 AM	#26
Jaxx Scooby Guru Member#: 177 Join Date: Aug 1999 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Austin, Texas, USA Vehicle: The 93 W/EJ20K-sold Subaru-less :(	couple of questions 1-i am using a speed density ecu (tec2) should the nozzle be installed before or after the intake temp sensor 2- if i went for a non progressive pump (i can trigger it with the tec at a given boost/rpm setting) what pressure/rpm should i trigger it * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

02-28-2006, 01:24 AM	#28
Ultimate Collision Center Former Vendor Member#: 69072 Join Date: Aug 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Peekskill	I am pretty sure you would want to spray after the sensor. You want to put the nozzle about 5 to 8 inches at most from the TB. I can get you a full explanation about why you want to put afterwards I just need to talk to my buddy, I am pretty sure thats what he advised me to do when I switch over to speed density this month on my evo.

02-28-2006, 01:32 AM	#29
Ultimate Collision Center Former Vendor Member#: 69072 Join Date: Aug 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Peekskill	Now that I think about it yea I am definitely right that you want to spray afterwards. The only benefit to spraying before would be fooling your ecu to run more timing due to cooler IAT (in most cases). This does produce gains but its not ideal in getting the most out of alky. I would suggest doing it afterwards that way your ecu does its thing and alky does its as well.

03-01-2006, 12:01 AM	#31
Davenow Scooby Guru Member#: 23676 Join Date: Aug 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: de_dust and Orgrimar Vehicle: .	tell your friend to back away from the crackpipe. And head to OT. We can always use more photoshoppers

03-03-2006, 07:19 PM	#33
Amazake Scooby Specialist Member#: 9889 Join Date: Sep 2001 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: 12.94 best ET 105.58 best trap	My advise to A.I. users is the BEST fail safe is yourself! I have had a pump fail, I caught it, because I stayed aware.

03-05-2006, 05:21 AM	#34
aprazma Scooby Newbie Member#: 77619 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Jose, CA Vehicle: 2009 Cayman S Blue	>I am not very mechanically proficient, which kit is easiest to install? SMC by far. It typically takes about 1 hour to unpack, install and get up and running. It took the mechanic at Full Function 5 hours and 35 minutes to install my SMC kit (not including any tuning, or even testing the pump to prime it and see if it worked). He started work at 10am and finished at 3:35pm.

03-05-2006, 10:55 AM	#36
Colin84 Scooby Specialist Member#: 57113 Join Date: Mar 2004 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Annapolis, MD Vehicle: 2009 Dodge Ram Blue	It took me a good long while as well. About 5 hours IIRC. Then again my pump is mounted in the trunk sucking out of the stock intercooler sprayer tank. That required a bracket to be built to hold the pump, then run the wiring and pressure line up through the car, continue the pressure line into the engine compartment and extend the wiring by 4' to reach into the glove box where I mounted the controller which required a hole to be drilled in the bottom of the glove box. Once done I went back into the engine compartment and had to pull off the APS topmount (anyone who has one know's they're a biotch), drill the hole and reinstall. Holy unorganized, run on sentances! I obviously chose to make my setup a bit more complicated. It is totally stealth and unseeable.

03-05-2006, 02:23 PM	#38
edaniele1212 Scooby Newbie Member#: 71013 Join Date: Sep 2004 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: around Springfield, MA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Java Black/Goldies	wow great write up, all my Water/Methanol Injection questions answered...thanks

03-05-2006, 07:05 PM	#39
Ultimate Collision Center Former Vendor Member#: 69072 Join Date: Aug 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Peekskill	Yea typical install from start to finish is usually in the 2-3 hour range if you have the right tools.

03-06-2006, 10:47 PM	#40
Ultimate Collision Center Former Vendor Member#: 69072 Join Date: Aug 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Peekskill	Another bit of info that has been poping up, "where do I start my alky at, aka how many lbs of boost?" My starting point is about 1/3 full boost and work from there, some cars benefit from a little higher while some from a little lower.

03-07-2006, 01:01 AM	#41
bcblues Scooby Specialist Member#: 17256 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: America's Outback Vehicle: 18 Outback on the road....	I would think that you would want to begin the alky/water injection BEFORE your torque peak, since that is when our motors are most sensitive to knock. In fact, I would think that an early, though smaller pulse early in the rpm range would really help the turbo spool up much quicker.

03-07-2006, 12:47 PM	#43
dads_cruizzzer Scooby Specialist Member#: 61724 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern California Vehicle: 04 FXT silver	My tuner I-Speed won't even tune with alky. Too risky he says. I see his point of view and I don't blame him. Here's my situation. Since my last tune, I will or have replaced some parts: 1. replaced STi tmic with larger Spearco tmic 2. replaced Sti header with GT Spec header 3. replace OEM STi catback with full 3" catback 4. replace OEM turbo inlet hose with APS turbo inlet pipe 5. replace OEM filter with K&N panel filter By just replacing items 1 and 2, I've experienced a considerable power increase. I imagine that after replacing items 3 and 4 that I will again gain even more power. I am concerned that by replacing these items that my tune has gone from a conservative to an agressive tune, enough for me to worry about det. Is there a concern here or not? My question now is, 'assuming' that no legitimate tuner will tune to AI, will it still benefit me to install AI without tuning, just to avoid det? Why do I have a feeling that was a dumb question...

03-07-2006, 02:11 PM	#44
bcblues Scooby Specialist Member#: 17256 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: America's Outback Vehicle: 18 Outback on the road....	dads: I think you are incorrect in your assumption that "no legitimate tuner will tune to AI". There are plenty. Having said that, since I-Speed is uncomfortable with it, good for them for being up front and telling you that they will not do it. There are some good reasons why AI may not be the right thing for YOU to do, particularly on a daily driven car. But in the end, there is little doubt that AI is a great tool for cooling the intake charge, raising the octane rating, and buffering the combustion. Without engine management, I think that you really cannot harness the potential for ANY AI system. My 2 cents.

03-07-2006, 08:17 PM	#46
Davenow Scooby Guru Member#: 23676 Join Date: Aug 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: de_dust and Orgrimar Vehicle: .	As far as running without EM, I dont care what Coolingmist says. In the load sites where I wasnt tuned for it, I was hitting 8.1-1. That is not only FAR too rich, but also is dangerous. Bore wash will kill your motor in short order.

03-26-2006, 06:56 PM	#48
DonkeyPunch Scooby Specialist Member#: 18987 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Griswold, CT Vehicle: 2014 Forester Dark Grey Metallic	Sorry I haven't answered some questions, I have been out to sea. The Navy tends to do that to you... I will try to sit down this week and answer some of of the questions still out there on this subject that I didn't cover in the first post DP

03-27-2006, 10:48 PM	#49
azn2nr Scooby Specialist Member#: 35276 Join Date: Apr 2003 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Salt Lake City, UT	i dont have em (yet) and am running really lean. would an untuned controler based kit help me out on a 25% alcky mix??

03-27-2006, 10:51 PM	#50
Ultimate Collision Center Former Vendor Member#: 69072 Join Date: Aug 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Peekskill	Do you have wideband o2?