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Old 10-19-2020, 03:25 PM   #26
F1EA
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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
You have to compare specific years and models to gain any insight for manual vs CVT for say 0-60 times. With Subarus, the gearing is typically different with CVTs geared for low RPM high gear highway driving which makes MPG better but acceleration worse.

Newer Subaru CVTs seem to have become more reliable. The claim that just a valve body needs to be replaced in CVTs to repair......uh......maybe, but if you ask a Subaru dealer how to repair a slipping CVT (what mine had), they answer a complete transmission replacement for $8000. Fortunately, mine was under warranty so I paid nothing.

*Some* auto versions are faster. Certainly dual clutch transmissions with similar gearing will be faster and in sports car racing (ALMS, LM and the like), cars have run first sequentials then dual clutchs for decades because the shifts are faster and are done flat footed. But when Turner is done with a race weekend, they can tear down the transmission and bring it back to new before the next race. In "real world" applications, dual clutches are not good. Audi has moved away from them, back to traditional autos. Ford's fiasco of the dual clutch in Focus and Festiva has cost them hundreds of millions of dollars and is a huge failure.

All this said, my 3 Subarus represent all of the transmission options. We still have our 13 with a replaced CVT (known as a total garbage transmission) with 60k on the replaced CVT and 113k on the car. My 19 Crosstrek with a 6MT is wonderful, though with the low gearing, it is whining out in 6th at highway speed. The wife has a 17 Legacy and the CVT feels like a "normal auto" to me.

"in theory", one tranny might be better. I really don't care when the theory fails and the dash becomes a christmas tree and requires an $8000 replacement.
Yes, what he said ^
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:52 PM   #27
4S-TURBO
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Audi has confirmed the continuously variable transmission (CVT) is now dead, despite the German brand having been one of the first to utilise this type of automatic gearbox more than a decade ago.

Speaking at a future technology briefing in Sweden, head of V6 TDI development Ralph Rigger said that development of the multitronic – the brand’s name for CVT – has stopped at Audi and it will eventually be superseded across all model lines.

“The multitronic is no longer going to be around,” confirmed Rigger.

“The S tronic will replace the multitronic. [In future] we are going to see a co-existance of two gearboxes, the S tronic and the tiptronic [torque converter automatic].”

Asked why the gearbox technology, which infinitely adjusts engine revs during acceleration, will be superseded by dual-clutch automated manual technology in future Audis, the development manager was forthright: “for efficiency reasons”.

“The multitronic offered a major benefit, you were able to keep the engine speed at very low revs thanks to the transmission ratio, but we’re now able to use a stepped transmission and the efficiency there is better than in comparison to a variator [CVT],” he continued.

“The large benefit of the multitronic was the low revs, but we are also able to do it now with this system [S tronic].”


Rigger pointed to the release of the facelifted Audi A7 Sportback V6 TDI front-wheel drive model, which has increased engine efficiency on the switch from using a multitronic CVT to a dual-clutch S tronic transmission.

“If you run the [A7] ultra model, just watch for the low revs that are possible by this gearbox, so we’re able to reach the same engine speeds as with a multitronic but efficiency is better,” he said.

Although Audi currently uses an eight-speed torque converter automatic transmission for its high-torque diesel-engined all-wheel-drive models, Rigger also confirmed that “later on we are going to have a quattro version” of the seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox.

The demise of the CVT means the current Audi A6 2.0 TFSI and TDI grades on sale will likely come in for an S tronic upgrade soon, while the next-generation Audi A4 due next year will flick the CVT currently available in entry-level 1.8T and 2.0 TDI, and 3.0 TDI guise. It will leave the Audi A5 coupe and convertible as the last Audi models to use the transmission.
Subaru put all their eggs in a basket regardless of needing CVT to hold torque or holding torque back so as to not break the CVT.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:41 PM   #28
Norm Peterson
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Let's be clear on one thing: VW's DSG/Porsche's PDK are NOT automatic transmissions, nor are they a "type" of AT. They are AUTOMATED manual transmissions (AMTs).
Sorry, but as soon as you add any kind of automated shifting mode to a transmission, that transmission is by definition an "automatic" transmission by the mere fact that it can do its own shifting independently of the driver.

IOW, just because a DSG is neither a conventional torque converter/planetary gear automatic nor a CVT does not exclude it from the 'automatic' category. The operative characteristic is that a DSG/PDK/whatever includes shift logic all its own (whether you choose to use it or not). On this logic concept . . . older automatic transmissions employed hydraulic logic rather than electronic logic.

This isn't intended as flame toward DSGs, it's just a matter of characterizing them by the one feature that distinguishes as automated transmission from a manually-controlled-only transmission. It's probably best if we avoid associating any of today's automatics with terms like 'slushbox', even though that was perhaps an accurate description for some of yesteryear's automatics.


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Old 10-19-2020, 07:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by F1EA View Post
So yeah, it fits the purpose, but they also like it, and prefer it (especially compared to a manual). Which is what I mean: It is not really under rated, it is actually rated pretty well. It is disliked by some group (seems like a minority as Subarus with CVT have sold plenty), and quite ok to another group (maybe the majority and/or the market target?). A lot of people don't care at all so for Subaru to dump $ to please some weird minority, is kind of crazy.
I think the group that best defines those who are most likely to dislike CVTs is performance drivers in general. There will be a few outliers, of course.


FWIW, the WRX/STi is, according to a recent survey on MT take rates, the model with the highest MT percentage in the industry (~88%). It's the other Subaru models with CVT that brings the CVT numbers up. Even the Legacy eventually flipped over to CVT-only, after being a MT holdout at least through 2010, and I think conventional automatic only for a short while after that.


Quote:
But yes... other than reliability, what's not to like?
I think before you can get to any "what's not to like" point, you have to be fully accepting of a transmission that can leave you out of the loop while it goes on about taking care of its own forward gear selection.

Going from MT to conventional AT may be the big step here; it's a smaller step from there to the amorphous ratio choosing of a CVT. So if you start your driving life predisposed toward automatics rather than conventional MTs, you're already over the big hurdle.


Norm

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 10-19-2020 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:31 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Sorry, but as soon as you add any kind of automated shifting mode to a transmission, that transmission is by definition an "automatic" transmission by the mere fact that it can do its own shifting independently of the driver.
I'll disagree and say that, yes, the shifting has been automated, but an AMT still uses a friction plate(s), a pressure plate(s) and gears with synchronizers, hallmarks of a traditional MT.

Call it what it is; an AMT, not an AT.

In my industry, we have to make this distinction between traditional MTs, traditional ATs, and MTs that shift on their own.
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Old 10-21-2020, 12:07 PM   #31
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
I'll disagree and say that, yes, the shifting has been automated, but an AMT still uses a friction plate(s), a pressure plate(s) and gears with synchronizers, hallmarks of a traditional MT.

Call it what it is; an AMT, not an AT.

In my industry, we have to make this distinction between traditional MTs, traditional ATs, and MTs that shift on their own.
Seems to me that as soon as you add the word 'automated' to 'manual transmission', what you now have is by definition closer to an automatic transmission than to a manual transmission. It's automated by direct statement, which = automatic.

I get that there may still be a little stigma as far as the term 'automatic transmission' is concerned. But the mere fact that these AMTs can fully operate as ATs still makes them automatics in actual automated usage, where the name officially given to it is completely irrelevant. The use of semantics to argue that an AMT isn't at its logical heart an AT here means no more than whether or not your WRX / STi displays all of its OE badging. The way it works is what matters.


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Old 10-21-2020, 01:35 PM   #32
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I surprised at how many people like the CVT here. I have been in and out of loaners for a few months now and I have found all of them to be clunky, especially when maintaining a low speed (25mph). I work on a military base where its mostly 25 everywhere so I may notice it more than others. The first 2 loaners (2019 Ascent, 2020 Forester) were the worst. Now I am in a 2020 Crosstrek, which feels the best. The steering feels more engaging than the others and I notice almost no clunking at low speed.

I was also quite surprised to see the Crosstrek has a 2.5l DI engine. Maybe they are just calling the FA24 a 2.5l on the window sticker?

^ EDIT: its a FB25. Shows how little I know about Subaru NA motors.

Last edited by Zak6182; 10-21-2020 at 02:10 PM. Reason: I is unedumacated
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