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Old 09-26-2011, 03:50 PM   #3126
P.Rico
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That is my wife's argument against the Focus. Personally I think snow tires would be 95% as effective in getting going, although could be significantly better at stopping which should be what really matters.

Hard to argue though when you see someone out trudging in the slop in those 5% cases where they couldn't make it up that hill, and thus the reason we own two Subaru's.

Glad you wrote "want" instead of need. Many people believe that AWD is some kind of necessity when the pavement becomes contaminated. Not required, but it sure can make life easier on occasion.
The AWD will certainly give you a leg up on traction when all tires see ice/etc at the same time. but will not help you any more with stopping the car vs. FWD when both are equally equipped with snow tires.

Also, no amount of traction will get you up a hill if you don't have spikes or chains in any case.

Saying that though, I still do like the advantage of AWD in those small instances where it can make a difference... I have made it through many years of FWD and good tires in snow, but I guess I'm one of those "wanters" as well.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:05 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by eberniard View Post
That is my wife's argument against the Focus. Personally I think snow tires would be 95% as effective in getting going, although could be significantly better at stopping which should be what really matters.

Hard to argue though when you see someone out trudging in the slop in those 5% cases where they couldn't make it up that hill, and thus the reason we own two Subaru's.

Glad you wrote "want" instead of need. Many people believe that AWD is some kind of necessity when the pavement becomes contaminated. Not required, but it sure can make life easier on occasion.
My parents house is on top of a hill in WI that is always the last road to get plowed, so I grew up with Subarus, the other two houses up there all had big SUVs, either that or you'd be walking up the hill all winter. AWD does make a difference in the snow, also, when it's slick, you get that immediate traction when you are trying to get going from a light, etc. On my commute there is one stop light on a slope, people get stuck there a lot when it snows. I passed a lot of stuck people with my Baja. Of course AWD doesn't have anything to do with stopping in the snow, just going, and I like to be able to go when other cars can't I hope this car does as good as my Baja in the snow!
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:26 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by eberniard View Post
That is my wife's argument against the Focus. Personally I think snow tires would be 95% as effective in getting going, although could be significantly better at stopping which should be what really matters.

Hard to argue though when you see someone out trudging in the slop in those 5% cases where they couldn't make it up that hill, and thus the reason we own two Subaru's.

Glad you wrote "want" instead of need. Many people believe that AWD is some kind of necessity when the pavement becomes contaminated. Not required, but it sure can make life easier on occasion.
The same can be said of a whole slew of automotive advancements: power steering, air conditioning, electric windows, and on-and-on... Not required—but I wouldn't want a vehicle without those items; same with AWD.

Bob
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:35 PM   #3129
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Oh man, I've dealt with the loss of power-steering on occasion: No thanks!
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:40 PM   #3130
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The same can be said of a whole slew of automotive advancements: power steering, air conditioning, electric windows, and on-and-on... Not required—but I wouldn't want a vehicle without those items; same with AWD.

Bob
Good point, although you might say that advancements like power steering, a/c, power windows, etc are used frequently and have a small efficiency penalty whereas AWD is seldom used and has a more significant cost (both in vehicle price, weight, and fuel economy).
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:03 PM   #3131
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Good point, although you might say that advancements like power steering, a/c, power windows, etc are used frequently and have a small efficiency penalty whereas AWD is seldom used and has a more significant cost (both in vehicle price, weight, and fuel economy).
It's used on Subarus and other full-time AWD cars "all the time." You may not feel it, but it's still there working for you. Sure, power steering, power brakes, etc., you notice right away. AWD is more subtle. How many times has it pulled you through a wet corner, or some other slippery surface, and you never thought twice about it?

Now if Subaru had a graphic on the instrument panel showing where and when the power is being sent, this AWD discussion might never occur. But since we don't have that feature, we constantly end up with these debates.

Bob
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:03 PM   #3132
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Oh man, I've dealt with the loss of power-steering on occasion: No thanks!
Awww.. whimp!!! Drive an old grain truck some day with a full load

Think of it this way, you'll save money on gym memberships!
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:12 PM   #3133
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Awww.. whimp!!! Drive an old grain truck some day with a full load

Think of it this way, you'll save money on gym memberships!
If it worked out my abs also then you might be on to something.

If it doesn't workout my abs does that mean I've been doing it wrong?

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Old 09-26-2011, 06:27 PM   #3134
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Good point, although you might say that advancements like power steering, a/c, power windows, etc are used frequently and have a small efficiency penalty whereas AWD is seldom used and has a more significant cost (both in vehicle price, weight, and fuel economy).
More significant cost!? Compared to what? Doesn't it cost over $1000 to get four snow tires and they last what only two or three seasons? For some people they do need it because AWD is a better alternative then keeping up with snow tires every year. And where did you pull this logic that AWD only helps 5%?? Last I checked AWD helped me every winter, gave me better traction during the rain to make confident passes and right turns into traffic. I had a FF and FR and the small ups and downs I go through in traffic through downtown always required more traction. I see people get stuck there spinning their wheels all the time. Not everyone can do the Winter tire thing just because it's an option and majority of people rarely do.

Last edited by brettjr25; 09-26-2011 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:57 PM   #3135
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More significant cost!? Compared to what? Doesn't it cost over $1000 to get four snow tires and they last what only two or three seasons?
No it really doesn't.

For example I bought Hankook I-pikes for my 17" wheels new from discount tire for 400 shipped to my door and they are going on their 3rd season and will more than likely last 3 more.

While winter tires aren't a must have, they sure beat the snot out of most all season tires out there in the snow.

Think about this way, you pay 500ish dollars to run winter tires for part of the year which will prolong the life of your stockers as well. It's money worth spent IMO.

I will agree with you though, that living in any place with true seasons (I'm in the NW) AWD is a must have.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:57 PM   #3136
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Currently in negotiations.

Found an out of town dealer within reasonable driving distance that is willing to offer below invoice. A dealer in town is not willing to go as low so I'm trying to get the in town guy to get split the difference, but he has been unwilling as of yet. I'll give him until the end of the month.
Care to PM a brother the name of the dealer? I live in Northern Illinois.
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:20 PM   #3137
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Care to PM a brother the name of the dealer? I live in Northern Illinois.
Evanston Subaru in Chicago area is a vendor on here and offers very competitive pricing!
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:20 PM   #3138
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In a place like where I'm at, quality all-seasons are a good bet year 'round, because it may snow only a couple times a year (or not at all) but it's slick through 3 seasons.
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:49 PM   #3139
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I too was surprised to see that the new "high-tech" Impreza 2.0l engine is not going to have direct injection. Subaru is small, but doesn't that allow for more flexibility? I believe that Mazda is roughly the same size as Subaru, and they have seemed to find a way to use DI.

I'm cross shopping the Impreza with the 2012 Ford Focus which has the same size engine however the Ford engine has DI which seems to account for about 8-10% more horsepower. The Ford has a "6-speed automated manual" tranny, but no CVT option.

Anyone else considering the 2012 Focus to the new Impreza?
Cross shopping AWD and FWD vehicles? They don't even compare in my mind.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:59 PM   #3140
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Subaru has made slow progress with their vehicles so far and seems that their new roadmap is continued slow progress and unnecessary hybrid vehicle IMHO.

If you can do without AWD, it will *significantly* increase your options, if you are in the marker for a new car.
I am looking for AWD to avoid the requirement made by Caltrans to put on chains when crossing the Sierra with a 2WD vehicle. My wife's car has LRR summer tires on year-round, but except for the Sierra in winter, it does not limit our travel ability.
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:07 AM   #3141
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More significant cost!? Compared to what? Doesn't it cost over $1000 to get four snow tires and they last what only two or three seasons? For some people they do need it because AWD is a better alternative then keeping up with snow tires every year. And where did you pull this logic that AWD only helps 5%?? Last I checked AWD helped me every winter, gave me better traction during the rain to make confident passes and right turns into traffic. I had a FF and FR and the small ups and downs I go through in traffic through downtown always required more traction. I see people get stuck there spinning their wheels all the time. Not everyone can do the Winter tire thing just because it's an option and majority of people rarely do.
We're getting a bit off topic here, but you can get a great set of snow tires either mounted on another set of wheels (which is what I do) or have your all season tires swapped out for your snow tires during fall and swapped around again in the spring.

All season tires are an absolute total, utter sham, which is why I run dedicated snow tires on all my AWD vehicles. The amount of control you have over all season tires is simply staggering. Driving on all season tires in wintery conditions after driving on winter tires is terrifying. You cannot believe what a difference it makes having good winter tires in the winter.
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:53 AM   #3142
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Subaru XV on sale in Australia in January.
Will Subaru introduce XV in North America?
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:21 AM   #3143
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Subaru XV on sale in Australia in January.
Will Subaru introduce XV in North America?
Looks like we need to wait until 2013, and that it will have a different name...
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...2013-exclusive
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:15 PM   #3144
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We're getting a bit off topic here, but you can get a great set of snow tires either mounted on another set of wheels (which is what I do) or have your all season tires swapped out for your snow tires during fall and swapped around again in the spring.

All season tires are an absolute total, utter sham, which is why I run dedicated snow tires on all my AWD vehicles. The amount of control you have over all season tires is simply staggering. Driving on all season tires in wintery conditions after driving on winter tires is terrifying. You cannot believe what a difference it makes having good winter tires in the winter.
I would just reiterate that this actually costs you very little in the long run - every KM/Mile you put on your winter tires is less distance on your summer/all-season tires. Steelie rims are cheap enough and the benefit is the added traction in winter. We can blab all we want about the benefits of AWD in winter, but this benefit is miniscule compared to winter tires.

http://www.insideline.com/features/t...vs-summer.html
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:15 PM   #3145
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x3 post
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:16 PM   #3146
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x2 post
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:21 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

Looks like we need to wait until 2013, and that it will have a different name...
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...2013-exclusive
I'll have to wait until fall of next year then. I wonder if they will change production version for US. Time will show.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:48 PM   #3148
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Cross shopping AWD and FWD vehicles? They don't even compare in my mind.
Yep, in my mind they are very comparable since both vehicles essentially do the same thing, for the same cost. I'm not here to convince anyone otherwise, just looking to see if anyone here might have also considered the Focus or any other comparable automobile (same size, price, and fuel efficiency).

The differences that I see are that the Ford should have a little more pep (more horsepower same weight) and the Subaru auto is a CVT which I'm leery about.

I fully understand the benefits of AWD, but for me that is just a consideration not a requirement and that point is not what I was interested in discussing here.

Sorry if I caused this to get off topic. What I really prefer to be cross shopping would be an Audi R8 to a Lambo Gallardo, price might be slightly uneven, but they both have AWD and do the same thing
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:48 PM   #3149
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I'll have to wait until fall of next year then. I wonder if they will change production version for US. Time will show.
Me too. Maybe next year they will introduced more internal colors for leather; the two selections they have (black/ivory) are not practical.
Black will show every scratch, and ivory will get dirty very fast.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:11 PM   #3150
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Anyone else considering the 2012 Focus to the new Impreza?
I ordered a Focus SEL for my wife, should be here in a couple weeks. So Ill be able to compare the two in depth. Focus sure does give a great first impression. I hope the impreza can match the tech integration of the Focus.
But most likely Ill be cross shopping the Impreza with the new skyactiv Mazda3
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