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Old 09-03-2018, 11:30 PM   #1
marxtr6
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Default '05 Impreza Outback Sport - timing screw up

Aloha all, replacing the timing belt on my daughters '05 Impreza Outback Sport. EJ 25. I screwed up and ended up moving the sprockets on both sides. I got them back to where I though was the right position, marks all lined up, put everything back together and when trying to rotate the crankshaft the two rotations, it is stopping after about a 45 degree turn. Feels like its hitting on the passenger side of the car? I don't know what to do. Any help is greatly appreciated.

2. Second problem is while putting the belt on and off several times trying to correct this I forgot to put the pin in the tension idler the last time so now it's extended. Any way of compressing it again.

3. One of the threads into the head holding the valve cover on is stipped. I can get it tight but not even to 8 Ft. lbs. Any thoughts on what to do on that or do you think I might get away with it without leaking. It's the upper left bolt on the drivers side cover.

PS. is there a way in this forum that I can set my preferences so when I get a response, I get an email notification?

Time for a beer.

Thanks,

Mark
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Old 09-04-2018, 09:47 AM   #2
Charlie-III
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Remove the belt, make sure you get the rear timing mark on the crank gear set, not any on the front face of the gear.
Then set the cams.....passengers side should be loose and drivers side will be loaded.

Tensioner.....I put in a vice, pin up. Then use a small C clamp to slowly compress the pin. I use finger tips on the clamp handle and maybe go 1/2 turn, wait, turn some more, etc.

Use the "thread tools" and subscribe to the thread.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:40 PM   #3
yarrgh
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For the stripped thread, the only correct way to repair is a threaded insert. That being said, the other bolts might be enough to overcome this bad one and prevent leaks since this one is on top. Also, aren't the cover bolts only supposed to be torqued to 3.6 ft-lbs? (don't have a manual in front of me)
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Old 09-04-2018, 08:53 PM   #4
CaptainSlowbaru
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Here's a quick clinic on SOHC timing marks.
Keep in mind, any time you see paint marks on the cam sprockets, disregard them.
Only use the actual slots engraved in the sprockets. (See left cam below)
Sometimes the paint is on the slot- that's ok, just use the slot. (See right cam below)

The left cam lines up with the notch (arrow) on the inner timing cover:



The right cam lines up with the seam (dashed line) between the cylinder head and cam carrier: (Some of these sprockets are metal, not plastic, but the mark is the same on either)



The crank lines up with the notch (arrow) in the oil pump housing below the crank sensor:

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Old 09-15-2018, 06:23 PM   #5
marxtr6
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I've got it lined up just as pictured but when I release the tension pin and attempt to spin the crank, it bottoms out at about a 1/4 turn??
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxtr6 View Post
I've got it lined up just as pictured but when I release the tension pin and attempt to spin the crank, it bottoms out at about a 1/4 turn??
All of the previous information by the others is spot on. Why the replacement? Just maintenance or did the belt break?

Have you tried securing your tensioner with the pin, removing the belt and spinning the cams individually? Then once you release the cams (no tension) try spinning the crank alone.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:33 AM   #7
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxtr6 View Post
I've got it lined up just as pictured but when I release the tension pin and attempt to spin the crank, it bottoms out at about a 1/4 turn??
You are turning the crank clockwise, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
All of the previous information by the others is spot on. Why the replacement? Just maintenance or did the belt break?

Have you tried securing your tensioner with the pin, removing the belt and spinning the cams individually? Then once you release the cams (no tension) try spinning the crank alone.
Decent idea, remove belt, unload cams, align crank, then see if each cam turns by itself........they should.
Unload the cams again, engine/crank should spin.

Maybe you're having it assembled and you're feeling compression?
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
All of the previous information by the others is spot on. Why the replacement? Just maintenance or did the belt break?

Have you tried securing your tensioner with the pin, removing the belt and spinning the cams individually? Then once you release the cams (no tension) try spinning the crank alone.
I bought the car for my daughter in college and it had 160k on it. The head gaskets hadn't been done so as preventive maintenance (getting the car is shape and shipping from HI to CA), I decided to make sure it was in as good of shape as I can.

Yes, on the tensioner. cams spin fine w/o the belt. Normal clicks around the clock, crank moves fine also. I've tried all options, I can find and can't figure out why it's bottoming out (drivers side) at about 30 degrees.

I did have the heads removed and shaved. Thought they might have removed the sprocket when they did so, so this afternoon, I removed the sprocket to see if there was a possibility it was put back on wrong. Doesn't seem possible.

My little princess is anxiously awaiting her carriage. Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
You are turning the crank clockwise, correct?

Yes.

Decent idea, remove belt, unload cams, align crank, then see if each cam turns by itself........they should.
Unload the cams again, engine/crank should spin.

Done this, still bottoming out?

Maybe you're having it assembled and you're feeling compression?
Not compression. It stops and won't go any further. It seems like the marks are off on the sprockets... Not sure how that could happen but normal setup is not working. I read on a forum today about a "tooth check"? If anyone has any guidance on that, I would appreciate it.

Aloha,
Mark
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:35 AM   #10
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If there is a way of sharing a video, I would be happy to do so. Just not sure how to upload.

Aloha,

Mark
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:49 AM   #11
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By any chance is this a manual transmission car? If so, take it out of gear.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:49 PM   #12
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Its an automatic.

Thanks Mark
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:57 PM   #13
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Here's a link to a you tube video of my situation.

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Old 09-17-2018, 09:32 AM   #14
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First thing I would do if you are in fact hitting your valves is double and triple check your marks. Like previous posts said disregard all paint marks and only use the indented mark to set time. On the crank sprocket speaking for my car personally there are two marks, a dot or tick on the face of the sprocket and a line engraved in the toothed section on the back of the pulley. Disregard the dot and use the line on the back section with the teeth.

Make sure that when you install the belt you use the crank sprocket as your starting point. With hand tension on the belt use a breaker bar (ratchets will twist) and hold the cam sprocket on time (if necessary) and pull the belt over the cam. Do this for both sides. This method almost always forces your tensioner up where it should be. Then with the belt over the cams and crank you can continue to hold tension with your hands and pull it around the water pump and remaining pulleys.
I watched the video and I have always had to use force to install that last pulley. Never seen one go on that easy.

After that, if I was sure I was dead on time and still hitting the valves, I’d pull my heads since the engine is already out and check that my timing mark on the crank sprocket is in fact at mid-stroke when set. While this check is being performed I’d check my heads for issues.

I’m not trying to insult your intelligence, I’m just installing my timing belt in my head and trying not to miss any steps.

Last edited by awcforever; 09-18-2018 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:10 AM   #15
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awcforever View Post
First thing I would do if you are in fact hitting your valves is double and triple check your marks. Like previous posts said disregard all paint marks and only use the indented mark to set time. On the crank sprocket speaking for my car personally there are two marks, a dot or tick on the face of the sprocket and a line engraved in the toothed section on the back of the pulley. Disregard the dot and use the line on the back section with the teeth.

Make sure that when you install the belt you use the crank sprocket as your starting point. With hand tension on the belt use a breaker bar (ratchets will twist) and hold the cam sprocket on time (if necessary) and pull the belt over the cam. Do this for both sides. This method almost always forces your tensioner up where it should be. Then with the belt over the cams and crank you can continue to hold tension with your hands and pull it around the water pump and remaining pulleys.
I watched the video and I have always had to use force to install that last pulley. Never seen one go on that easy.

After that, if I was sure I was dead on time and still hitting the valves, Id pull my heads since the engine is already out and check that my timing mark on the crank sprocket is in fact at TDC when set. While this check is being performed Id check my heads for issues.

Im not trying to insult your intelligence, Im just installing my timing belt in my head and trying not to miss any steps.
In general, I agree with your post (different wording than others here), here is where I get .
This is a Subaru EJ 4 cylinder, do NOT use TDC when doing timing. That is wrong!
When the correct crank timing mark is used, all 4 pistons are at mid stroke, thus spin cams with no fear of hitting pistons. On DOHC it "is" possible to spin both cams in a head and crash valves against each other, but they won't hit the piston in any cylinder.
I can't speak for a Subaru 6 cylinder.

From single cylinder lawnmowers, motorcycles, and up to 12 cylinder, inline, V, etc., yes, normal is bring cylinder 1 piston to TDC, align crank mark, then set cams and distributor so cylinder 1 has valves closed. Double check marks.
Timing is set to TDC on cylinder 1.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:00 PM   #16
marxtr6
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All, Thanks for your replies. I'm by no means a master mechanic so you will never insult my intelligence I am very good at following directions though and have lined the marks up on the sprockets as they should be. When doing the heads, I cleaned the cylinders and the pistons were in fact mid stroke when the crank sprocket was lined up. I am thinking something may have happened when the head was taking in to the shop. I guess my question is, if I'm doing everything right and still having a problem, what could have happened and what are the steps needed to get everything back to where it needs to be.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:22 PM   #17
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxtr6 View Post
All, Thanks for your replies. I'm by no means a master mechanic so you will never insult my intelligence I am very good at following directions though and have lined the marks up on the sprockets as they should be. When doing the heads, I cleaned the cylinders and the pistons were in fact mid stroke when the crank sprocket was lined up. I am thinking something may have happened when the head was taking in to the shop. I guess my question is, if I'm doing everything right and still having a problem, what could have happened and what are the steps needed to get everything back to where it needs to be.
Dude, some of wish we could, "wave the magic wand, things work!".
We can't, we can state how things look and work, then go from your replies.
You look good.

A stretch, maybe carbon hang up on a valve stem and you have piston to valve clash?

Yes, a stretch.

Sorta glanced through the thread again, I am leaning towards carbon on a valve stem or bent valve.
As I posted before, no timing belt, cams loose, crank should spin easy, even easier if plugs out.
Correct crank mark used, cams should spin rather easy (you get snug spots due to spring compression).
SOHC, spin away.
DOHC, make sure both cams in a head are loose, then spin away on one. Get it loose, spin away on the other.


As an aside, my daughter is in college, 5 hrs away, BUT I can drive there! I totally understand your position.



Way at the bottom.....I am not a master mechanic, never worked for peanuts to allow me to go take any ASE test.
I have been wrenching for a bit over 40 years and have some ME background.

Take my advice with a grain of salt.
If someone like Elbert Bass on here disagrees, listen to him first.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:26 PM   #18
marxtr6
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Thanks Charlie. Wish you had that wand. Not sure if I mentioned, the car was running before the tear down. could I have bent a valve just rotating the cam by hand if it hit the piston? If carbon on the valve stem was the issue, would that not have been problem before the tear down? Thanks again.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:36 PM   #19
Charlie-III
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Cool

Is it possible?
Yes.
Likely....in my eye......nope.

I finally got your video to load, from NJ, looks good on what you did.

As to wand, "he who shall not be named" broke it.

[book/movie reference......].

Since engine not run, remove timing belt, then reverse the head torque process, remove head/heads.
Check for a valve stuck open.
Fix as required.

PS, your hair is my color, but about 1/2 the mass........just commenting.....
Yes, let's fix this, helps you as well as daughter.....
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:41 PM   #20
marxtr6
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Charlie, your sense of humor is appreciated during this frustrating time on the rock . I actually took the valve cover off on the passenger side last night and rotated the cam. All seems good, all four positions popping open and closed. I didn't do the drivers side as it appears to be hitting on the passenger side. Argh...
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:07 PM   #21
Charlie-III
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Sense of humor.....welllllll.......sometimes I, "take a step back, have a shot/smoke a butt, cogitate a bit, cool off, then thimk".
Does not always help, but a decent start.


[no, thimk was intended regardless of spellcheck..same with cogitate.......].



Hey, you want, PM me a number, we can chat. Reminder we are, what, 6 hrs off?
We, on this forum, are just trying to help.
Yes, I can be a PITA at times, but I have also been there done that many times. I also learned from books, myself, and asking others that knew better than I.
Dad to Dad, just trying to help.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:09 PM   #22
marxtr6
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Not sure if this adds anything to the conversation but the first time I attempted to put it all back together, I misunderstood the crank rotation rule. I rotated the crank attempting to line up the marks on the belt twice, not the crank. I'm glad I did as this is where I first noticed the issue. I rotated the crank sprocket about 4 revolutions, maybe more before it bottomed out. If I would have only done so twice and put it all back together, I would have been in a world of hurt after putting it back in the car. From this point forward, it only rotates about 45 degrees before bottoming out. What I don't understand is if it only takes two rotations of the crank to make a complete revolution in the engine, why would it bottom out after that? It seems if you can make two revolutions without obstruction, you should be able to make 1000 revolutions?
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:16 PM   #23
Charlie-III
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General internal combustion info..........
Crank turns twice for every full 360* turn of the cam/cams (part of "4 stroke" vs 2 stroke).
Research and learn.

Sorta like looking at a dyno plot where HP and torque don't cross at 5252RPM (in the US) and I call BS. I say, "research" and I get crap.
Know how HP is calculated from RPM and torque.
Sheesh.
I sucked at most math.

PS, got your PM, have not replied yet......

Last edited by Charlie-III; 09-17-2018 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:20 PM   #24
Charlie-III
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Stupid OT comment, assume your screen name is your name and Triumph TR6? I was raised on British sports cars, I know about filling some carbs with light oil to make them idle as well as 6VDC and positive ground systems.
Just so you know....if......you know. I also know about Whitworth tools...........
Yes, I am that old school....errrrr....."old skool"......
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:34 PM   #25
Charlie-III
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We chatted on phone. He has some direction by me (FWIW), he should get back to us......hopefully......
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