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Old 09-06-2013, 11:08 AM   #551
Type2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spintheground View Post
I meant to say as long as it is not checked for during a state inspection!



I deleted mine entirely. Removed the valve, capped the IM and OEM line and pulled the charcoal canister.

The vent line that runs up to the engine bay (from canister) is plugged. If you're crazy you could remove it entirely but that's a lot of work.

The vent line (from gas tank to canister) should NOT be plugged. I put a tip over valve and a cheap autozone air filter on it.
Not sure if the tip over valve is needed as I believe there is already one farther up towards the tank..but if I ever rolled my car the last thing I want to have is an easy route for fuel to escape the tank.
Filter may not be needed either but no harm in putting it on I suppose.
I'm catless in Kansas. We can get away with pretty much anything.

My buddy in KC I was talking about just emailed me the following:

"There are 3 hoses that come through the fire wall on the drivers side. 2 are push connect one isnt. The one that isn't push connect is the one you're looking for. Just add a piece of hose to it and run it under the car. Thats what I do."

Is this consistent with what you are saying? I will have to look under the hood because I'm having trouble visualizing things right now.

I don't think this is rocket science.

Thanks
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:23 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by spintheground View Post
I deleted mine entirely. Removed the valve, capped the IM and OEM line and pulled the charcoal canister.

The vent line that runs up to the engine bay (from canister) is plugged. If you're crazy you could remove it entirely but that's a lot of work.

The vent line (from gas tank to canister) should NOT be plugged. I put a tip over valve and a cheap autozone air filter on it.
Not sure if the tip over valve is needed as I believe there is already one farther up towards the tank..but if I ever rolled my car the last thing I want to have is an easy route for fuel to escape the tank.
Filter may not be needed either but no harm in putting it on I suppose.
That's the way I've always heard it done, but I guess I saw that as potential for fuel smell just having that vent open with a tip over valve and a breather filter.

I guess stock configuration routes these vapors to the intake manifold where they just get burned off. The trick is not to pressurize the tank under boost or vacuum with off boost, I guess that's what all the valves and solenoids are for.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #553
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^Yep I'd assume it is a way of not allowing the vacuum of the IM suck excess air out of the canister/tank.

I don't get any gas smell at all, no where. I can see how removing the charcoal canister could lead to gas fumes being noticeable.
I don't think the gas tank vents as much fumes as you think though.




Type2 - no not at all. I'll take some pics for you in a few.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:16 PM   #554
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Purple line marks it here.



But NOT here!



Crappy pic but you can kind-of see both caps here.




Messy bay.


Note Red cap on IM and fuel line under IM.

This is how I have it and I completely removed the charcoal canister (black box looking thing opposite the muffler on my car. Could be elsewhere on yours..)

What your friend said will work but if you ever flooded your charcoal canister you couod be sending fumes into/under your engine bay that could potentially ignite given the right circumstances.

Please ignore the cluster-**** that is my engine bay. I too just installed a built motor. Temporarily made what I had work to get it running

Last edited by spintheground; 09-06-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:33 PM   #555
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spintheground - I'm having trouble seeing your pics. Do you have photobucket? I don't know if picasa can be linked direct like photobucket.

Thanks for your help. Can't wait to see the pics.
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Old 09-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #556
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Fixed.

Grabbed 'em from the wrong app on my phone, meant to pick G+.

The second cap is hard to se. It's that red dot above the wiring harness and inlet in the third pic. Not sure if it is the same for you since you different fuel lines?
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Old 09-06-2013, 02:10 PM   #557
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Fixed.

Grabbed 'em from the wrong app on my phone, meant to pick G+.

The second cap is hard to se. It's that red dot above the wiring harness and inlet in the third pic. Not sure if it is the same for you since you different fuel lines?
Thanks bud. That's super helpful. I'm curious if I forgot to reconnect where the second cap is (the hard to see one). I've read a couple threads with folks removing the charcoal canister, etc. That seems like a lot of work. This method looks to be simplest.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:28 PM   #558
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I did remove the canister! You have to for that method or your tank won't vent!

Your buddies method is simplest.

Removing the canister only took me 15 minutes.

If you didn't connect that bottom line you'd have a boost leak. I know you're running speed density but that IS past the map sensor. So your ecu could be adding fuel for air that isn't making it to the combustion chamber causing a fuel smell while on boost.

But I'm sure you'd notice that big of an air leak.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:46 PM   #559
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He's got a vacuum block since a lot of his vacuum bungs were shaved or something, but that might explain the surging under load too.

Problem is none of it lines up, it'd be one thing is the fuel smell and surging happened at the same time, but he's had the fuel smell since the dawn of time and the surging has been recent.

How did the pump look when you had it out? any wiring problems that might prevent it from getting the voltage it needs under load?
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:09 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by spintheground View Post
I did remove the canister! You have to for that method or your tank won't vent!

Your buddies method is simplest.

Removing the canister only took me 15 minutes.

If you didn't connect that bottom line you'd have a boost leak. I know you're running speed density but that IS past the map sensor. So your ecu could be adding fuel for air that isn't making it to the combustion chamber causing a fuel smell while on boost.

But I'm sure you'd notice that big of an air leak.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's connected. I'm paranoid now so I'll check before I drive home. My AFR's are pretty spot on now. Mikey's tune is coming along great.

Maybe I will remove the canister. I want to eliminate any possible issues. You don't get any gas smells or have trouble filling your tank up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin V View Post
He's got a vacuum block since a lot of his vacuum bungs were shaved or something, but that might explain the surging under load too.

Problem is none of it lines up, it'd be one thing is the fuel smell and surging happened at the same time, but he's had the fuel smell since the dawn of time and the surging has been recent.

How did the pump look when you had it out? any wiring problems that might prevent it from getting the voltage it needs under load?
Correct - the fuel smell has been around for a while, and the turbo issue is more recent. Pretty sure the turbo surging/choking/hesitations were lean spots because my injectors were either dirty or not functioning properly. At least that's what Mikey thought it was. He said the lean spots were random and he couldn't tune around it. Probably the main reason I switched to top feed. I haven't tried to replicate what used to cause the surging / lean hesitations because to do so I have to put it in boost under load on the turnpike. Right now, doing so causes such an extreme shuddering/shaking I'm afraid whatever is wrong will suddenly snap and maybe cause an accident. It also means I pretty much have to stay out of boost. Even accelerating on the turnpike has become worrisome. Seems to be a high load / above 45mph issue.

I'm going to possibly take it somewhere tomorrow morning to look at the CV joints and front axles. It feels like that's where it's coming from.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:41 PM   #561
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Oh ok I was using the surging interchangeably with the shaking and shuddering. So you think that's suspension related and not power surging.

have you checked the AIT output? my friends drove fine but on the dyno it had a crazy dip even though the A/F was fine... it was that AIT not doing anything that caused it. that car drove as smooth as... something that's really smooth.

I'm subscribed to another build with your same kit that Dom from MPS is tuning. He kept the mafs but I was pretty surprised how nice the idle quality with just the speed density even with cams. I look forward to it on my next iteration.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:31 PM   #562
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I removed mine because my tank overflowed(filling up with E85 from a gas can over and over) and after that I had a constant fuel smell.. Got tired of trying to figure out what it was so I ripped it out.

Turned out to be the fuel pump seal


I'm going to go back and read this thread because I'm missing some pieces of the puzzle.

Shaking and shuddering?
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:24 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by spintheground View Post
I removed mine because my tank overflowed(filling up with E85 from a gas can over and over) and after that I had a constant fuel smell.. Got tired of trying to figure out what it was so I ripped it out.

Turned out to be the fuel pump seal


I'm going to go back and read this thread because I'm missing some pieces of the puzzle.

Shaking and shuddering?
I'll save you some time. It's post #454 -- I truncated the post for the most pertinent information. The links are clickable - specifically the video:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Type2 View Post
Switched over to synthetic oil this weekend for the first time. I assume after 3,000 hard miles it's broke in. In general, the car is running great. Mikey said we are about 2 - 3 revisions away from having the tune completed. After that I'll take it to KC and get it dyno'd on a real dyno.

Issues:

1. I've been having some major hesitation under boost. I posted a thread here in the built engine sub forum but I haven't got any love yet. You can click on the link below for more info. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I also posted the video here for viewing pleasure. You can see while I am filming, when the boost cutout happens, I lurch forward and the camera shakes. I think the sound of the muffled ewg is badass though. One of my favorite sounds.

Major hesitation under boost (LINK CLICK ME)
Hesitation during partial throttle acceleration - YouTube

2. I'm also trying to chase down a fuel smell while under boost.

Fuel smell under positive boost, load and 50psi+ fuel pressure (LINK CLICK ME)
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:27 PM   #564
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The issues are broken down into this:

1. Major hesitation under boost
2. Shudder under load
3. Fuel smell under boost
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:36 PM   #565
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I need something of my own to work on so I can leave you alone.

You are the first person I've seen with a fuel pressure gauge. 70psi seems like a lot of fuel pressure, maybe its not. But could the pump be having a hard time maintaining that?

can you go back to the above post and put when those issues started?
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:50 AM   #566
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Nice... job
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:11 PM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin V View Post

You are the first person I've seen with a fuel pressure gauge. 70psi seems like a lot of fuel pressure, maybe its not. But could the pump be having a hard time maintaining that?
Total Fuel pressure is base pressure + boost pressure. Base is usually 43.5, so if hes running 20psi the total should be 63.5


Its hard to see the hesitation in the video. I suggest taking some knowledgeable locals for a ride and see what they think. It could be alot of things...turbo, tune, axle, trans, ect.

EDit: Just saw the other video, does the boost always move around like that and not hold solid? It obviously shouldnt be jumping around and that will make the car feel very odd
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:48 PM   #568
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Quote:
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Total Fuel pressure is base pressure + boost pressure. Base is usually 43.5, so if hes running 20psi the total should be 63.5


Its hard to see the hesitation in the video. I suggest taking some knowledgeable locals for a ride and see what they think. It could be alot of things...turbo, tune, axle, trans, ect.

EDit: Just saw the other video, does the boost always move around like that and not hold solid? It obviously shouldnt be jumping around and that will make the car feel very odd
You are seeing the hesitation in the video. Basically it feels like WOT, then completely lifting off for a split second, then back to WOT. The video shows the boost needle hitting around 2xpsi then you see it drop off, then goes back. That is what I am talking about the hesitation. Mikey said it was caused by random leans spots that he could not tune around. Main reason why I switched to top feed injectors that were brand new. I wanted to eliminate the fueling issue. Mikey thought the injectors were either dirty or going bad. I'm sending them off to Witchhunters for inspection tomorrow.

Regarding fuel pressure, I believe I set base pressure to 44 or 45psi. It should get close to 66psi at 21psi boost.

I figured out what the shudder was. The violent shaking under acceleration. Yeah... um.... my engine mount nuts were... well, let's just say I could take them off by hand.

I got a lot of stuff done today. I took care of the engine mounts. I also installed my Whiteline steering rack bushings. That actually wasn't too bad. I did have to unbolt the steering rack and pull down a bit, but it wasn't too bad. Took probably about 1.5 hours. I could do it again in probably 45 minutes or less. My old bushings were worn out.

Right side:






Driver's side wasn't was badly worn, but it was still very soft and 200k+ miles on it:




It is pretty noticeable on the highway. Not really in town. A lot better feedback.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:03 PM   #569
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I figured while I had it up on rams, I'd install the Rallitek transmission bushing. I was under the impression it was a pretty easy install...

My car on ramps. I don't show it off enough:


Rallitek bushing w/ supplied grease:


Transmission crossmember brace. This was a pain to get out due to my larger diameter exhaust. Plus, I didn't want to remove my downpipe to make more room, so it turned into kind of a "thing" getting it out.


I took everything over to my buddies house and we pressed in the bushing with a vise, then a press:


Other side:


Crossmember dangling:


Getting there:


Finally bolted up:


Completely finished:


The Rallitek bushing comes in soft and stiff. I believe I got stiff version. It is hard as a rock. It is so hard, that I had to use a jack to push the crossmember up against the vehicle frame to thread the bolts in. I'm not sure if I can tell much of a difference right now - I was exhausted and since I was out in 100* heat with no shade laying on cement, I was bordering on heat exhaustion, so I think I'll need to give it more time to make a definitive statement. One thing I can say is that NVH is up 100%. I can almost hear the driveshaft whirring. Luckily my exhaust is loud and drowns it out but at this point it certainly wasn't worth the effort and potential brain cells.

Next up -- figure out the gas smell. And the valve cover gasket. All in all, a very productive weekend.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:26 PM   #570
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I haven't seen your car aside from in pieces with the engine out... it looks damn good.

Glad you got some of those things knocked out. Now that the hesitation has been explained I wondered if any of the wires to the DBW throttle are shorting. I know with my TMIC the y pipe pushed up against the harness pretty snuggly.

I know what you mean about the car wanting to be driven hard, my friends doesn't feel like its doing anything at 15 psi but when its WOT and at 21 it torque steers like crazy.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:12 AM   #571
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So... the weird thing about the fuel smell - and I've noticed this before (and my theory definitely needs more testing) - is that the smell is way more noticeable when the A/C is on recirculate. Which doesn't make sense.

My 20 mile commute has a lot of hills (Lawrence is about 45 miles from Flint Hills) so my cruise control gets a workout. With cruise control on going up an incline, I usually get to 0 bar boost and then the smell comes on strong. Halfway to work I turned off recirculate and the smell went away.

I thought maybe I was nuts but while sitting at a stoplight (after getting off the turnpike) my valve cover oil leak started filling the cabin with a burnt oil smell - which I never get when the A/C is on recirculate. So the recirculation function is working correctly, b/c when I turned recirculate back on, the smoke smell went away. (Yeah, I know, I need to fix the valve cover gasket).

Any ideas on this?
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:39 PM   #572
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I skimmed through your journal, and I'm convinced you must be one of the most patient car modders around! Most people would've torched the car by now.

As a fellow big-turbo 4EAT FXT owner, I enjoy seeing the similarities and differences in other builds. My build isn't perfect either, and I think my issue lies with my DW 850s. I'll probably swap to ID1000s after I'm done paying for pregnancy/baby bills. I get random knock, and the transition from open loop to closed loop feels clumsy. I'll try my hand at tuning one of these days.

I contemplated buying the Rallitek insert since it was $10, but I knew it wouldn't be worth the effort or noise. I do have a Perrin pitch mount, and it's been a nice addition.

One thing that many people don't realize it the 4EAT is a wonderful transmission for drag racing, especially with a high-stall torque convertor. Maintaining full boost off the line and through every gear is something 6mt/5mt owners dream of.


Anyways, awesome build, and I hope you get the bugs worked out soon.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:20 AM   #573
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Quote:
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I figured while I had it up on rams, I'd install the Rallitek transmission bushing. I was under the impression it was a pretty easy install...
I did my trani-mount without touching the crossmember (course I have a different car), just disconnected the engine mounts, jacked the engine up about 5", the mount slid right out.

I do notice with my new mounts that shifting is more regular under load, but the NVH skyrocketed too (I can now hear driveline noises in the car with the engine isn't loaded). Not sure what it's going to do for your 4EAT.

Hesitation is usually fuel related; but your FP gauge seems to indicate you have plenty of fuel (should be 45psi over manifold, so 70psi is correct for 25psi boost; +/-5psi).

Ask Mikey to turn on all CELs (baring stuff you know you've deleted), his base maps have a few turned off, could be that the car can tell you what's up.

Other hesitation is usually spark or timing related- you check your plugs?

Post a log, include all the usuals, toss in AVIC too.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:00 AM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Type2 View Post
So... the weird thing about the fuel smell - and I've noticed this before (and my theory definitely needs more testing) - is that the smell is way more noticeable when the A/C is on recirculate. Which doesn't make sense.

My 20 mile commute has a lot of hills (Lawrence is about 45 miles from Flint Hills) so my cruise control gets a workout. With cruise control on going up an incline, I usually get to 0 bar boost and then the smell comes on strong. Halfway to work I turned off recirculate and the smell went away.

I thought maybe I was nuts but while sitting at a stoplight (after getting off the turnpike) my valve cover oil leak started filling the cabin with a burnt oil smell - which I never get when the A/C is on recirculate. So the recirculation function is working correctly, b/c when I turned recirculate back on, the smoke smell went away. (Yeah, I know, I need to fix the valve cover gasket).

Any ideas on this?
Is your fuel pump housing and cover plate secure?
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:35 PM   #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by climbhigh09 View Post
I did my trani-mount without touching the crossmember (course I have a different car), just disconnected the engine mounts, jacked the engine up about 5", the mount slid right out.

I do notice with my new mounts that shifting is more regular under load, but the NVH skyrocketed too (I can now hear driveline noises in the car with the engine isn't loaded). Not sure what it's going to do for your 4EAT.

Hesitation is usually fuel related; but your FP gauge seems to indicate you have plenty of fuel (should be 45psi over manifold, so 70psi is correct for 25psi boost; +/-5psi).

Ask Mikey to turn on all CELs (baring stuff you know you've deleted), his base maps have a few turned off, could be that the car can tell you what's up.

Other hesitation is usually spark or timing related- you check your plugs?

Post a log, include all the usuals, toss in AVIC too.
We are working on the hesitation issue. It's a tuning issue. Fuel pressure and flow are fine. I haven't had a chance to send Mikey a log in a week or so. The last map he sent me is rich and is working on throttle tip in.

NVH is through the roof. I 100% regret the trans mount bushing. All it did was make my daily commute borderline unbearable. Incredibly noisy and pointless. Really pisses me off.

I never thought of Jacking up the engine. That's not a bad idea. I will probably never get around to it at this point (i.e. it'll be next summer at the earliest).

I have not checked my plugs. That is something I need to look at, but they are super low miles on a fresh engine. Unless they are incredibly fouled. I was under the impression that these plugs are self cleaning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
Is your fuel pump housing and cover plate secure?
Yeah. I replaced it. It's a few pages back and I don't expect you to have read it, but I took care of that already.

Actually, the fuel smell is gone now. I removed the fuel evap system and my fuel smell under boost issue 100% went away. I've been busy with the new baby so I haven't posted.
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