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Old 10-18-2017, 03:46 PM   #726
base0021
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Thanks for this post. That was very helpful.
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:29 PM   #727
Benny13f
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Valid point and great read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
READ THIS FIRST

The point of this thread, since no one seems to be able to get this, and I will add it to the first post is








99% of people, with increased power, the only time they are going to need stopping power greater than what a bone stock brake/tire setup can offer, is when they are going down the road and have an "OH ISHT" panic brake situation.

And in that situation, there is no brake setup on the planet that will stop you any faster than the OEM pads/rotors/lines/fluid will.
The ONLY thing that will shorten that distance, is a stickier tire.


And for most people, they mod their car and they go out and rail on it from a stop or roll, usually in a straight line. The braking power they have to worry about is going to come into play

when they see a cop
When they hit a red light
When something is coming out in front of them
When there is some reason they need to get on the brakes hard and fast to avoid hitting something.

None of those things would see any benefit whatsoever, from upgraded pads,rotors, lines, or fluid, or any combination of them. Only a stickier tire is going to make the car slow down or stop in a shorter distance.


So, to be clear, if in an effort to make the message of this post look incorrect, you are posting something completely irrelevant if you

1. You bring up power gains
2. You bring up racing
3. You bring up anything other than the type of street driving that 99% of people actually do.
---Most people don't do canyon runs or anything similar to that.

Unfortunately, those 3 points above, encompass at least half the responses in this thread
Point is, stop trying to come up with situations that I am not talking about, just to make this post look incorrect, to justify what you spent on your brake kit. Maybe you do something that requires it, most people however, even with 400+whp, don't, and won't.



And just to make it clear once again.

For 99% of people with increased HP, the main brake performance issue is going to be

Panic braking in an emergency situation (be it a cop, old lady pulling in front of them, or just oh **** a red light)













When people talk about modding their car to make more power, someone almost always comes in and tells them that with more power, they need more handling and more braking.

While this is solid reasoning, its not always a necessity.

My personal philosophy is that when upgrading a vehicle, address everything, to maintain a nice balance.

However, there is a flaw with part of the logic of "if you upgrade one you must upgrade all 3 in order to remain safe"

If you go from stock, to 400whp, upgrading the brakes, IS NOT NEEDED AND YOU WILL BE NO SAFER THAN YOU WOULD BE ON STOCK BRAKES.

Now, I know a lot of you are now no longer reading this and are already forming your replies, and unfortunately many of you will base them on beliefs you have formed by reading what others have said on the internet, who only said what they said, because they read it on the internet. Or based on misconceptions. (some of you may have well thought out and solid arguements as well) Those of you about to say I am wrong, I assure you, are wrong. Please do me and yourselves a favor, and make sure you UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING before replying.

Here is the thing.

A WRX with @170whp (stock 2.0L typical) traveling at 10, 40, 60, 130mph, will take the exact same force to stop, as a fire breathing alcohol fueled 800whp WRX traveling 10, 40, 60, 130mph.


Take either of those cars, put a $14000 stoptech 8 piston f/6piston r setup, and do the same full boogie panic stops, and what do we get?

THE EXACT SAME STOPPING DISTANCE.

(now, lets leave heat induced fade off the table for now, as it isnt something that 90% of people that would argue that you have to upgrade the brakes would ever run into on stock brakes anyway) For the sake of this discussion, lets look at what people are really talking about. Panic stops, someone pulls in front of you OH ISHT nailing the brakes to avoid hitting them, stopping or the rate at which you can slow down enough to avoid impact (since you dont always have to stop)

Why is that?

What stops cars? What is the ultimate force that determines what point the traveling vehicle will no longer be traveling?

Friction. Not the friction between the pads and the rotors, but the friction between the tire and the road.


Now, lets take 2 cars again.

First WRX, 170whp, bone stock brakes. 225/45/17s in a dot legal R compound.

Second car, whatever WHP, and $7k in brake upgrades. Stock tires. Heck lets even say they went to stock STI 225/45/17 RE070s.

Send both cars down the same road, in the same weather conditions at the same speed. Have someone pull out in front of them.

Tell me, which one will stop short enough, or be able to slow down fast enough to avoid a wreck?

I bet more than half of nasioc would pick the car with $7k in brake upgrades. Those people would all be in an accident.



How does a car stop? Well, how does it move? What moves, that causes the big hunk of metal to move?

TIRES.

What gets a car off the line faster? Less wheelspin. WHat gets you less wheelspin? Stickier tires.

What gets you through a corner faster? More traction, what gets you more traction? Stickier tires.

Just like when you are trying to accelerate a vehicle, the amount of grip the tire has on the road, will determine how fast you can get moving forward (or backwards if you are a launch in reverse type of guy ) Its the EXACT SAME THING when trying to slow or stop.

OEM brakes have FAR more than enough power to lock up even a big wide sticky r compound tire.

People like to cite that the STI has a shorter stopping distance with its Brembos. The brembos have nothing to do with it. The RE92s have everything to do with it.



So a lot of people at this point, will argue that "well then why do they put brembos and big brakes on sports cars if they dont stop you any shorter"

The answer is intended purpose, and as much as many people dont want to believe, LOOKS/CUSTOMER PERCEPTION.

The "intended use" for the STI is hard performance driving. Track days, racing, its a car with actual motorsport use in mind. Even if they have watered it down and softened it for normal day to day use, its still a car that was built for motorsport use.

Big fixed mount calipers with lots of pistons, and large diameter rotors offer something a floating caliper with normal sized rotors dont offer. Mass. More mass=more resistance to heat induced fade. They also offer a more consistant and precise pedal, which allows finer braking control into corners.

They also offer a look. Like the new WRX, look at how many people complain that they "downgraded" the brakes. When in fact, from a stopping distance standpoint, there is no change.

Look at the competition for the STI, the EVO. What would happen to STi sales if they removed the brembos and the EVO kept them? That would sway those people who are on the fence, a little more towards the EVO.

Finally, lets look at the group-N STI rally cars. What brakes do they run?

That's right, not the Brembos. They run the older FHI 4 pot/2 pot setup in order to clear the smaller rally wheels. Yet they stop JUST FINE.



Lines, well lines are, from a stopping distance and fade standpoint, completely useless. Nail the brakes, things lock up rubber or steel lines makes no difference. Heat the brakes up, stainless lines have nothing to do with anything.

What lines DO get you, is a more consistant pedal, allowing more precise control.



Fluid, unless you are doing repeated hard braking enough to boil normal fluid, going to "upgraded" fluid, is a waste of money, and $18/bottle motul wont get you anything that $3 autozone fluid wont.




Rotors? NEVER an upgrade unless your factory rotors are damaged/very worn. Or if you go to a larger diameter rotor. Even then, that will only increase the amount of force per bit of pedal travel, to the point where they just lock up. Which would have happened on OEM sized rotors anyway. Slotted/drilled, at this point, is pointless and is for looks. Modern pads dont off gas like they used to, so having the slots/dimples/holes to vent off the gasses, well there is no need. Not only that, but 90% of drilled rotors will end up cracking. So if you want the look, GO FOR IT!, but buy a rotor that was cast with holes, not a solid that was drilled after. Break out the wallet though, and be prepared to search, not many people carry them and they arent cheap. If you do shows, do what I did, carry a set of $99 ebay cross drilled rotors with you and slap them on at the show. It takes 20 min.





"BUT MY BUDDY PUT BREMBOS ON HIS WRX WITH WTFBBQ ALLOY PADS, SUPERBUTTSEKS INCREDITAINIUM LINES AND CHUCK NORRIS BRAND FLUID AND IT STOPS WAY HARDER."


No, it doesnt. It has a lot more INITIAL BITE.
95% of people will mistake initial bite and/or decreased pedal travel, for the ability to stop shorter.

A locked tire is a locked tire. And while big brakes can lock a tire without having to push the pedal as hard, stock brakes can still lock the tires instantly if you nail the pedal. Therefor, stopping distance and rate of slowing down, is unchanged.,




So what can you do to make the car safer if you up the power?

Well, for one thing, if you are driving responsibly and within the law, why do you need to upgrade the brakes at all? Ok so obviously that is a dumb point to bring up

No but seriously, you upped the power and you want the car to be able to stop shorter


Well, as we have established, the grip of the tire on the road is the ultimate determining factor, so you want wider and or stickier tires. Preferably, both.

There is another aspect to look at too. Weight. A heavy object takes more force to accelerate or decelerate than a lighter one.

Put your car and yourself on a diet.

I think its hilarious that someone adding 50whp, and refusing to upgrade the brakes, is shunned and flamed, yet someone adding 200lbs of stereo gear/other things, no one even mentions the brakes. Rest assured that 200lbs of weight WILL increase stopping distance measureably.






Handling, thats another story altogether. A car that handles better is always safer than one that doesnt. In fact if you are so worried about safety, handling should be your first priority. Guess where the very first place you should look when it comes to handling Yup, those same black round things that will make you stop shorter.





This is a bit of a mind dump, so forgive me if it jumps around a bit or if I missed something or repeated myself.

Ill add more or edit it as needed when I get a minute.
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:53 PM   #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny13f View Post
Valid point and great read
Dude, really, why quote the first post.........

Glad you found it informative.
I totally agree.

Try learning brake management on a heavy 4 wheel drum car when you feel "racey", I've been there, done that.
I learned how to manage brake heat.

Glad you learned something, spread the good word.
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Old 10-20-2017, 03:13 PM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Dude, really, why quote the first post.........

I think people like that are spamming. Why on Earth would you quote the entire OP just to say something like "valid point, good read" ?
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Old 03-01-2018, 09:20 PM   #730
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new here - that was really informative.

EDIT: Sorry, i just realized this was the newbie section already... my bad

Last edited by sadsandwich; 03-01-2018 at 09:21 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:42 PM   #731
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Thanks for the info, always helpful.
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Old 03-12-2018, 07:24 AM   #732
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replacing breaks can be tough
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:52 PM   #733
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Wow, fair enough. The comparisons you used are somewhat astounding.
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Old 05-12-2018, 01:02 PM   #734
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very helpful thread. Thanks for clearing up some things I didn't understand about brakes as I am a newbie.
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:02 PM   #735
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great post
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:16 PM   #736
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Not exactly what I thought was intuitive, very interesting.
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Old 05-25-2018, 02:17 PM   #737
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Thanks
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:47 PM   #738
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So wait, should I get the "Best" pads or no?



Good read =)
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:07 PM   #739
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Have not posted here much lately

Good but not great thread with some glaring errors.

Parts store pads on a non-Brembo Subaru leave a lot to be desired.

Tire lockup does not = my brakes are good.

There are many ways and things to improve Subaru brakes.
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:49 PM   #740
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This helps
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:31 PM   #741
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Being new to this sort of thing. This post was very helpful and has great info in it. Thank you sir
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Old 07-07-2018, 11:48 PM   #742
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Don't think I want to shell a ton of money on brakes after reading this lol
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:40 PM   #743
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Just got a new '19 WRX and admit I was considering a sweet brake upgrade to more closely match my '17 BRZ's performance package stock Brembos. After reading this whole thing I'm convinced it's a waste of money. But I will never deny that they look 1000% cooler.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:34 AM   #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcvw View Post
Just got a new '19 WRX and admit I was considering a sweet brake upgrade to more closely match my '17 BRZ's performance package stock Brembos. After reading this whole thing I'm convinced it's a waste of money. But I will never deny that they look 1000% cooler.
There is some almost useful information on brakes in here but most of it is internet ranting and vendor bashing.

WRX brakes over the years are pretty poor for many reasons and many drivers benefit from a variety of possible improvements. It depends on what you want the car.

Your WRX will be more of a challenge than a BRZ with Brembo's.

You can read 20+ pages of forum garbage or email me at [email protected]

-Ken
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:29 AM   #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KNS Brakes View Post
You can read 20+ pages of forum garbage or email me at [email protected]

-Ken
Nah - skip the 20+ pages of forum garbage and just contact Ken.
This is their business. They know what they are doing.
If you are honest in what you want, they will get you the right stuff.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:01 PM   #746
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What is truly scary here? This even has to be brought up....
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:07 AM   #747
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Default Opinion on this test

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Old 12-01-2018, 01:38 PM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revv59 View Post
I am wondering what this thread thinks about the below brake test.
That looks like a solid test and is roughly what I would expect. The video is a bit lengthy but pretty accurate.

Note:

That's Billy Petrow from Broken Motorsports. He's a long time Subaru rally guy in NJ.

Did you see the front wheel vibrate as ABS worked. That's why ABS stops are LONGER than threshold stops which keep the tire planted. That was a lot of wiggling when the brakes were ABS'ing.

There is a lot of bad info in this thread. I've always disliked it.
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Old 12-03-2018, 10:18 AM   #749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revv59 View Post
I am wondering what this thread thinks about the below brake test.



Track-Ready 50-0 BMW Brake Test CORRECTED -- AFTER/DRIVE - YouTube
Looks pretty decent.
I believe the basic premise of this thread is, can you currently lock the brakes/invoke the ABS?
If yes, better brakes gain little until you increase tire grip.
Once you have better grip, then there are things that are inexpensive and get gains in stopping, feel, fade resistance.
I forgot to note the tires in the video, but IIRC they are basically track tires (better grip) on a second set of rims. These may be better than most DD tires, thus they can handle more brake torque.
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