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Old 12-06-2018, 04:05 AM   #26
Foo_Blyat
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Iíve been on bitog long enough that I know the armchair warriors from people in the industry. Shannow designs bearings and MolaKule and Solarent are oil formulators that formulate oil according to industry standards and ASTM tests. There are many other engineers in that thread as well.

RAT dismisses HTHS, as well as a lot of other things, and does not tell you how his tests are performed and against what standards. Shannow has challenged Rat on his blog many times and Rat simply responds with a bunch of caps saying that Shannow doesnít know what heís talking about.

Read through the thread (as well as many others) and youíll see that Shannow does back up his comments with studies and not just opinions.
If Shannow makes a website, tests 200+ oils in what ever way he sees best, and posts his results, ill def look into it. The rest is just noise
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:28 AM   #27
bluesubie
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Originally Posted by Foo_Blyat View Post
If Shannow makes a website, tests 200+ oils in what ever way he sees best, and posts his results, ill def look into it. The rest is just noise

Thatís funny. Iíll come up with my own ďtestsĒ and make a web site. Iíll take charts of SAE and manufacturer studies over some dude with a web site, but to each their own. Heck, Iíd take one random single pass uoa since that at least shows how an oil performed inside of an engine.


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Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
Blue, when motul now brands their x-clean as C2/C3 but older x-clean bottles are marked as C3, is that just marketing on Motul's part, or will the 8100 x-clean efe not be as heavy duty as a pure C3 oil?

The oil choice thread detailed differences in the numbers within A/B classifications, but just had a single entry for all C classifications.

C2 is recent and has a lower HTHS:

https://www.acea.be/uploads/news_doc...ugust_2018.pdf

Last edited by bluesubie; 12-06-2018 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:02 AM   #28
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So what does it mean when X-Clean EFE is marked as a C2/C3 oil? From what I can read of that PDF, C2 has a lower minimum HTHS, so maybe if it's marked as "C2/C3", that's just branding on Motul's part to say that it satisfies both C2 and C3 spec, which means it still has a high enough HTHS to satisfy ACEA's C3 spec.

Or am I mistaken?

Between C2 and C3 oils, the main differences in the tests which determine which category an oil falls into between the two is HTHS (>=2.9 for C2 and >=3.5 for C3), and TBN (no requirement it seems for C2, and >=6.0 for C3). SAPS requirements are identical between the two, as is evaporative loss.

Last edited by SirBrass; 12-06-2018 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:30 AM   #29
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So what does it mean when X-Clean EFE is marked as a C2/C3 oil? From what I can read of that PDF, C2 has a lower minimum HTHS, so maybe if it's marked as "C2/C3", that's just branding on Motul's part to say that it satisfies both C2 and C3 spec, which means it still has a high enough HTHS to satisfy ACEA's C3 spec.

Or am I mistaken?

Between C2 and C3 oils, the main differences in the tests which determine which category an oil falls into between the two is HTHS (>=2.9 for C2 and >=3.5 for C3), and TBN (no requirement it seems for C2, and >=6.0 for C3). SAPS requirements are identical between the two, as is evaporative loss.


Ok, now I get your point. That would be a question for Motul.

Even the data sheet doesnít really explain it.

ďThe ACEA C3 standard requires from the lubricant significant oil film resistance and low emission performance during use in powerful engines. The ACEA C2 standard requires significant reduction of friction to ensure gains in energy savings, and therefore fuel economy benefits.

MOTUL 8100 X-clean EFE 5W-30 has synthetic base stocks coupled with specific friction modifier molecules and dedicated SAPS levels that generate outstanding oil film resistance, reduce friction in the engine and provide after treatment device compatibility. MOTUL 8100 X-clean EFE 5W-30 brings high lubricating properties such as wear protection and high temperature resistance for better controlled oil consumption. ACEA C2 and C3 lubricants achieve extended drain intervals as managed by the vehicle on-board computerĒ.

But the HTHS is 3.5.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:52 AM   #30
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So, maybe for the sake of knowing exactly what's going into my engine, I should look for X-Clean that is just C3, not the EFE stuff.

Now, I'm an electrical avionics engineer and not at all familiar with chemical engineering, but wouldn't something that has very high oil film resistance not have as good friction reduction properties? I mean, if the film is resistant to temporary shear, wouldn't it not be as easy to move through the engine, thus making the engine work harder?

*Shrug* When folks talk of boundary layers, I think of magnetic fields, not fluid dynamics so I'm completely out of my depth here.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:24 PM   #31
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Thatís funny. Iíll come up with my own ďtestsĒ and make a web site. Iíll take charts of SAE and manufacturer studies over some dude with a web site, but to each their own. Heck, Iíd take one random single pass uoa since that at least shows how an oil performed inside of an engine.
K. let me know how that goes
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
So, maybe for the sake of knowing exactly what's going into my engine, I should look for X-Clean that is just C3, not the EFE stuff.

Now, I'm an electrical avionics engineer and not at all familiar with chemical engineering, but wouldn't something that has very high oil film resistance not have as good friction reduction properties? I mean, if the film is resistant to temporary shear, wouldn't it not be as easy to move through the engine, thus making the engine work harder?

*Shrug* When folks talk of boundary layers, I think of magnetic fields, not fluid dynamics so I'm completely out of my depth here.


Yes a higher kinematic/HTHS viscosity increases friction which is why oils have Friction Modifiers. I think MolaKule has some papers on both FMís and film strength here:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...d-white-papers
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Yes a higher kinematic/HTHS viscosity increases friction which is why oils have Friction Modifiers. I think MolaKule has some papers on both FMís and film strength here:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...d-white-papers
Maybe that's what they added to their x-clean: FMs to make it C2 compliant?

Not that we're going to be able to find out since I bet how Motul is listing their oil as C2/C3 is a trade secret.

But if my WAG is correct, then I'll still be doing great putting EFE into my WRX after I've used up the other 2 dealer oil changes I purchased (3 oil changes & 2 tire rotations for $170. Not a bad deal. Pretty convenient too). So, basically it'll start going in at around 9k miles. With this cold weather and salt on the roads, I'm doing 3k OCIs.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:25 PM   #34
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K. let me know how that goes

K.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2796973
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