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Old 08-26-2018, 07:54 AM   #1476
Shadybeckhamjr
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new to this forum but for a daily driver i think 350 hp would be solid the turbo has been a main concern for me
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:02 AM   #1477
dorko
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Hi newbie here I recently bought a turbo TD06-20G with my newly built engine how can I break in the engine and turbo? Do turbo need break ins? Can my engine handle TD06-20G?. Here is my build

2.5L Block 2.0 EJ20 Head
OEM crank
ACL Main/Conrod Bearings
Skunk2 Alpha Series Con Rods
Manly Pistons (oversized 1mm) I think
Stage 2 ACT Clutch
OEM gasket
ARP headstud

Thanks guys!
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Old 09-26-2018, 04:01 PM   #1478
Carlit0sWay
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Helpful ty
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Old 09-27-2018, 05:52 PM   #1479
bdubblu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorko View Post
Hi newbie here I recently bought a turbo TD06-20G with my newly built engine how can I break in the engine and turbo? Do turbo need break ins? Can my engine handle TD06-20G?. Here is my build

2.5L Block 2.0 EJ20 Head
OEM crank
ACL Main/Conrod Bearings
Skunk2 Alpha Series Con Rods
Manly Pistons (oversized 1mm) I think
Stage 2 ACT Clutch
OEM gasket
ARP headstud

Thanks guys!
You're just fine... your build will handle the 20g without a problem.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:45 PM   #1480
MyersThomas
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Location: Pomeroy Wa
Vehicle:
1997 legacy l
dark blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
I see these posts on a weekly basis. We all do. It always makes me feel really aprehensive (sp?) when I read it. So I just wanted to put this out there for those that are asking this question.


Are you relatively new to the Subaru thing? Have you ever owned a TRUELY high performance import before? Have you ever owned any HIGH powered car before? Do you have fairly deep pockets?

If you say no to any or all of the above, then I beg you, please read on.


Many many times people have come into the Newbie forum and made the statement "My goal is 400whp" and they almost always JUST got the car.

It needs to be said, and anyone wanting 400whp needs to understand that 400whp is a LOT of power, and it takes a LOT to get there, and even more to do it reliably.

What will get you there?
Well, that depends on the dyno and tuner, along with how agressively you tune it. Dynos read differently and what makes 400whp on one dyny will make 450 on another, an 340 on yet others. Do you want 400whp on your local high reading dyno? Or do you want a TRUE 400whp that will make 400whp on almost any dyno out there?

In general you can hit 400whp on pump gas with something like (this is speaking of a 2.5L motor)

FP green turbocharger (this is larger than a 20G, its a 20G with a 49lb wheel)
Intake (GOOD intake, there are a few)
Front mount intercooler
Injectors
Pump
turboback exhaust. Catless prefered for this turbo and power goal. 3" would definately be recommended but 2.5 wouldnt hold it back much if at all.
Headers or P&P manifold and better crossover pipe.
Larger/better up pipe Definately recommended.

Custom tune obviously, and to hit 400whp you will likely need 24+PSI.
If you run alcohol injection you will get there easier and safer at a little lower boost. This setup will not reach 400whp on all dynos, but it will get you there on most.



Or, and this would MUCH more easily hit 400whp, and on many more dynos. I consider this a "true" 400whp setup.

GT30R rotated mount turbo kit
Front mount intercooler
Header to go with whatever up pipe that setup uses, even better if they make a header specifically for their rotated kit.
Injectors
fuel pump
Intake (this will be part of the rotated kit most likely)
Custom tune obviously.

Alcohol injection, again would allow lower boost/safer tune to hit 400whp, but this setup shouldnt have any problems hitting 400whp on pump gas by itself. Well over 400whp on race gas, I have seen 500whp on this setup with race gas on a semi high reading dyno.


So great, now you have 400whp.
Lets look at what the hidden costs are.

Clutch- Stock wont last long for 95% of people with this much power.
Flywheel- most do a light flywheel when they do a clutch. You may or may not.
Motor mounts are HIGHLY recommended at this point. Thats a lot of TQing around that the motor will be doing. The stock mounts were designed to hold a 300chp/300ctq motor still and keep noise at a reasonable level. If you are putting 400 to the WHEELS you are easily at 475 crank hp. Over 50% past what the stock mounts were made to handle.

Then lets look at the reliability limit of the stock motor.
400whp has been, since 2004 when the 2.5 came out shown itself to be the reliability limit of the stock pistons/rings. The rule of thumb is, upgrade the turbo, plan on a new shortblock. On something like a 20G or larger, at 20+PSI boost, its no longer a matter of IF, but when. There are of course some rare cases where someone makes 400whp for 50k+ miles, but believe me when I say this, that is RARE. Many with a good tune blow up well below 400whp. Best case scenario, pull the motor out and do pistons before you even install your 400whp setup. The crank/rods should be fine at this power level. Even so, doing a set of pistons can be a close to or just over $2000 investment, depending on what pistons and installer you use. Plan on at least $1500 to get some good forged pistons into your motor. Remember you will be paying for a full gasket kit, and with the motor apart a new timing belt and water pump is never a bad idea. Figure in oil and a filter as well. Small cost parts, but it adds up very quickly.

Then lets look at the safety aspect. 400whp is a LOT of power. In the hands of an unexperienced driver, it is quite litterally a deadly amount of power, especially so in an AWD car that can put the power down. 400whp in a RWD car is one thing, stomp on the gas at 40mph and you get massive wheelspin. Do it in an AWD car and you get hard acceleration. Are you experienced enough? The answer is in almost every case, no. Why? Lets use an example.

You are doing 65mph on the highway in a stock STI, or even light mods. You want to pass someone. Most will pass at roughly 85mph to get around that person. So you give it X amount of throttle, you dont look at the speedo because you have done it a million times, and you accelerate to 85mph.
Now lets swap that out for a 400whp car.
You are doing 65mph, you apply the same amount of throttle to do it, you are VERY quickly doing 90mph, you feel how hard it pulls so you back off a bit, but its all relative and even though it doesnt feel like its pulling as hard, its still pulling harder than it was when stock/lightly modded. You are doing well over 100mph by the time you get around that car.
Now someone comes over into your lane forcing you to turn and go around them while braking HARD. This is a delicate move.

Or, you decide you want to do a hard long pull. The kind that we all love, that puts a big dumb grin on our faces from feeling the seat pushing into our backs. You would have previously made it up to maybe 100-110mph.
So you are in the same place, same stretch of road. You do it again. Now you are doing 140 where you would have been doing 100. Go ahead, hit a bump at 140mph, and see how it feels. What was a "whump" at 100mph can quite litterally throw a 140mph vehicle into the air.

Your STI is a high performance vehicle that can handle high speeds and save your butt from a lot of dumb moves, but its not magic. AWD and the yaw sensors and such can only do so much, they arent miracle workers.

And if not for your own safety, think about what happens if you are doing the kinds of speeds you will EASILY hit with this kind of power and you hit another vehicle.


You may say "yeah but I wont do that kind of thing" That is all well and good, but the reality is that the more power you have, the more often you will drive at higher speeds than you did at the lower power level. I dont care who you are, its an almost 100% chance.





So lets review.

Do you REALLY know what this power goal will end up costing you?
Are you prepared to spend that kind of money?
Are you a good enough driver to handle that kind of power?

Have you even driven a 350whp STI?




My advice to those with a stock/lightly modded (like AP stage 2) STI/WRX, would be to take it in smaller steps. Most of the people I have met that wanted 400whp, were scared out of their mind when I took them out in a 330whp subby. Heck my 309whp 2.0Lwrx scared a lot of them.
Do this if you have a "stage 2" car (make sure you have these parts)

Custom tune. A GOOD custom tune. Do research before you pick a tuner. just because they own a shop doesnt make them good.
Full exh.
FMIC
[email protected]
injectors and pump.

Because that will be as much or more than 90% of people here will ever want or need. If you want more, drive that around for 6 months to get a handle on what the power is like.

if you are bone stock,
Do this.

Full exh
GOOD custom tune


Of course much of this is opinion, however this is opinion coming from 18+ years of driving, 15+ of those in high powered cars, 10 years of import scene and tuning experience and 5 years of Subaru specific tuning/driving and really importantly in this case, Meeting and speaking to people on Nasioc. So I like to think that it holds SOME truth to it at least

Opinion or not, I assure you the message behind it holds true and you should really take it all to heart if 400whp is your true goal.
Honestly i was starting closer to 275 i never owned a turbo car .my build is 275 hp with room to grow when its done in the 97 suburu legacy 2.2l with wrx rods pistons even4ually as well as headers still figuring out with a GTX2867R GEN II Turbocharger not counting miscelanious before my performance mechanic and i put that in .thank you for the input .
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Old 10-24-2018, 03:37 AM   #1481
Rocketjones
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Phoenix
Vehicle:
2009 Forester XT

Default

I don't want 400 horse power but I do want to be able to post to the forums and send/reply to PM's. Please help me.
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Old 11-16-2018, 04:57 PM   #1482
truexh
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Member#: 493017
Join Date: Oct 2018
Default

I achieved 400whp with about the mods you've listed. It feels fast for a good 1 week then after that, it feels just like a regular car. It's fast but the power is still in your control, just don't be an idiot about it.

Anyways, I was told by my tuner that 400hp on a stock block is as far as you should push it, is this true? It's a matter of when the stock block will give up?
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Old 11-22-2018, 03:00 PM   #1483
MyersThomas
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Member#: 492698
Join Date: Oct 2018
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pomeroy Wa
Vehicle:
1997 legacy l
dark blue

Default 2.2l stock block rebuild

My build in a 2.2 l 97 legacy expensive but i wanted to do something different
WISECO PISTONS EAGLE RODS FITS SUBARU WRX STI EJ25 EJ257 99.5MM 8.9:1
Dc sports turbo headers
Gatrett gt3076r gen 1 saving for a gen ii since im buying off of a friend for now
Universal 24 adjustible coils
Greddy fv blowoff valve might get an greddy rs instead
Mishimoto z line intercooer
Hks boost controller
2.5 to 3 debating exaust strait pipe borla tips
Weapon r dragon airfilter
Jdm oil temp gauges
52mm led boost gauge
Ngk spark plug wires
External wastegate hks greddy or turbosmart. Not sure on size until the 8th when my buddy and i review parts
My first build the suspensions being done in 3 weeks then the engine still looking into fuel injection better oil coolers so many mods with this build learning so much. My buddy and i are going to upgrade ecu and put manual stage 3 5 speed as well .

QUOTE=Defiant Autospeed;20142198]I see these posts on a weekly basis. We all do. It always makes me feel really aprehensive (sp?) when I read it. So I just wanted to put this out there for those that are asking this question.


Are you relatively new to the Subaru thing? Have you ever owned a TRUELY high performance import before? Have you ever owned any HIGH powered car before? Do you have fairly deep pockets?

If you say no to any or all of the above, then I beg you, please read on.


Many many times people have come into the Newbie forum and made the statement "My goal is 400whp" and they almost always JUST got the car.

It needs to be said, and anyone wanting 400whp needs to understand that 400whp is a LOT of power, and it takes a LOT to get there, and even more to do it reliably.

What will get you there?
Well, that depends on the dyno and tuner, along with how agressively you tune it. Dynos read differently and what makes 400whp on one dyny will make 450 on another, an 340 on yet others. Do you want 400whp on your local high reading dyno? Or do you want a TRUE 400whp that will make 400whp on almost any dyno out there?

In general you can hit 400whp on pump gas with something like (this is speaking of a 2.5L motor)

FP green turbocharger (this is larger than a 20G, its a 20G with a 49lb wheel)
Intake (GOOD intake, there are a few)
Front mount intercooler
Injectors
Pump
turboback exhaust. Catless prefered for this turbo and power goal. 3" would definately be recommended but 2.5 wouldnt hold it back much if at all.
Headers or P&P manifold and better crossover pipe.
Larger/better up pipe Definately recommended.

Custom tune obviously, and to hit 400whp you will likely need 24+PSI.
If you run alcohol injection you will get there easier and safer at a little lower boost. This setup will not reach 400whp on all dynos, but it will get you there on most.



Or, and this would MUCH more easily hit 400whp, and on many more dynos. I consider this a "true" 400whp setup.

GT30R rotated mount turbo kit
Front mount intercooler
Header to go with whatever up pipe that setup uses, even better if they make a header specifically for their rotated kit.
Injectors
fuel pump
Intake (this will be part of the rotated kit most likely)
Custom tune obviously.

Alcohol injection, again would allow lower boost/safer tune to hit 400whp, but this setup shouldnt have any problems hitting 400whp on pump gas by itself. Well over 400whp on race gas, I have seen 500whp on this setup with race gas on a semi high reading dyno.


So great, now you have 400whp.
Lets look at what the hidden costs are.

Clutch- Stock wont last long for 95% of people with this much power.
Flywheel- most do a light flywheel when they do a clutch. You may or may not.
Motor mounts are HIGHLY recommended at this point. Thats a lot of TQing around that the motor will be doing. The stock mounts were designed to hold a 300chp/300ctq motor still and keep noise at a reasonable level. If you are putting 400 to the WHEELS you are easily at 475 crank hp. Over 50% past what the stock mounts were made to handle.

Then lets look at the reliability limit of the stock motor.
400whp has been, since 2004 when the 2.5 came out shown itself to be the reliability limit of the stock pistons/rings. The rule of thumb is, upgrade the turbo, plan on a new shortblock. On something like a 20G or larger, at 20+PSI boost, its no longer a matter of IF, but when. There are of course some rare cases where someone makes 400whp for 50k+ miles, but believe me when I say this, that is RARE. Many with a good tune blow up well below 400whp. Best case scenario, pull the motor out and do pistons before you even install your 400whp setup. The crank/rods should be fine at this power level. Even so, doing a set of pistons can be a close to or just over $2000 investment, depending on what pistons and installer you use. Plan on at least $1500 to get some good forged pistons into your motor. Remember you will be paying for a full gasket kit, and with the motor apart a new timing belt and water pump is never a bad idea. Figure in oil and a filter as well. Small cost parts, but it adds up very quickly.

Then lets look at the safety aspect. 400whp is a LOT of power. In the hands of an unexperienced driver, it is quite litterally a deadly amount of power, especially so in an AWD car that can put the power down. 400whp in a RWD car is one thing, stomp on the gas at 40mph and you get massive wheelspin. Do it in an AWD car and you get hard acceleration. Are you experienced enough? The answer is in almost every case, no. Why? Lets use an example.

You are doing 65mph on the highway in a stock STI, or even light mods. You want to pass someone. Most will pass at roughly 85mph to get around that person. So you give it X amount of throttle, you dont look at the speedo because you have done it a million times, and you accelerate to 85mph.
Now lets swap that out for a 400whp car.
You are doing 65mph, you apply the same amount of throttle to do it, you are VERY quickly doing 90mph, you feel how hard it pulls so you back off a bit, but its all relative and even though it doesnt feel like its pulling as hard, its still pulling harder than it was when stock/lightly modded. You are doing well over 100mph by the time you get around that car.
Now someone comes over into your lane forcing you to turn and go around them while braking HARD. This is a delicate move.

Or, you decide you want to do a hard long pull. The kind that we all love, that puts a big dumb grin on our faces from feeling the seat pushing into our backs. You would have previously made it up to maybe 100-110mph.
So you are in the same place, same stretch of road. You do it again. Now you are doing 140 where you would have been doing 100. Go ahead, hit a bump at 140mph, and see how it feels. What was a "whump" at 100mph can quite litterally throw a 140mph vehicle into the air.

Your STI is a high performance vehicle that can handle high speeds and save your butt from a lot of dumb moves, but its not magic. AWD and the yaw sensors and such can only do so much, they arent miracle workers.

And if not for your own safety, think about what happens if you are doing the kinds of speeds you will EASILY hit with this kind of power and you hit another vehicle.


You may say "yeah but I wont do that kind of thing" That is all well and good, but the reality is that the more power you have, the more often you will drive at higher speeds than you did at the lower power level. I dont care who you are, its an almost 100% chance.





So lets review.

Do you REALLY know what this power goal will end up costing you?
Are you prepared to spend that kind of money?
Are you a good enough driver to handle that kind of power?

Have you even driven a 350whp STI?




My advice to those with a stock/lightly modded (like AP stage 2) STI/WRX, would be to take it in smaller steps. Most of the people I have met that wanted 400whp, were scared out of their mind when I took them out in a 330whp subby. Heck my 309whp 2.0Lwrx scared a lot of them.
Do this if you have a "stage 2" car (make sure you have these parts)

Custom tune. A GOOD custom tune. Do research before you pick a tuner. just because they own a shop doesnt make them good.
Full exh.
FMIC
[email protected]
injectors and pump.

Because that will be as much or more than 90% of people here will ever want or need. If you want more, drive that around for 6 months to get a handle on what the power is like.

if you are bone stock,
Do this.

Full exh
GOOD custom tune


Of course much of this is opinion, however this is opinion coming from 18+ years of driving, 15+ of those in high powered cars, 10 years of import scene and tuning experience and 5 years of Subaru specific tuning/driving and really importantly in this case, Meeting and speaking to people on Nasioc. So I like to think that it holds SOME truth to it at least

Opinion or not, I assure you the message behind it holds true and you should really take it all to heart if 400whp is your true goal.[/quote]

Last edited by MyersThomas; 11-22-2018 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention the external wastegate
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Old 11-24-2018, 12:02 PM   #1484
Areardon18
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Join Date: Nov 2018
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Great post! Definitely informative for the newbies and even some of the guys who’ve been around a little while.
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:44 PM   #1485
hoang5659
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Galaxy/Lapis Blue

Default

great read! i love the commentary also! i definitely want 400+whp. but i will air on safe side and try to go the staged route. incremental increases will give me time to normalize the hp. that way i don't kill myself once i get the whole shebang! haha i totally agree with some of the comments. 400whp on an awd is a lot safer than rwd. i had 2014 GT500 before this. man that thing got squirrely anytime you put the pedal to the floor. had a few "oh ****" moments. my Subaru feels 100x safer! cant wait to hit 400whp!
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:20 PM   #1486
Roczz
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Join Date: Dec 2018
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Once 400 hp starts to feel slow then you'll want 500 hp lol
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:01 PM   #1487
frugalrhombus
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Member#: 494291
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Broward County, FL
Vehicle:
2019 STI
Dark Gray

Default

So I'm not gonna lie, I read this before I got any mods on my car and thought you may have been exaggerating about the whole, people think my 350 whp STi is too much.

Jut got tuned last night after my mods and I'm making 303/333 and it is STUPID FAST (to me at least). You could definitely get into some serious trouble with 400 to the wheels right off the bat.

Thanks for the heads up!
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:43 PM   #1488
CarmelValleyWRX
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2005 wrx wagon
48w

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im at about 320whp on my 2.1 stroke engine. it gets past 100mph REAL quick for a daily driver. i have found that low RPM power is alot more fun than high rev peak numbers. having 350LBft of torque in the lower revs is better than 350-400whp at 7000. its great to be able to spin the tires at 4000rpm. there is a reason the stock cars come with small turbos.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:18 PM   #1489
TriAxis 6
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: on stage or recording studio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frugalrhombus View Post
So I'm not gonna lie, I read this before I got any mods on my car and thought you may have been exaggerating about the whole, people think my 350 whp STi is too much.



Jut got tuned last night after my mods and I'm making 303/333 and it is STUPID FAST (to me at least). You could definitely get into some serious trouble with 400 to the wheels right off the bat.



Thanks for the heads up!


Sounds like a great day with Mikey at Machines Gone Wild...enjoy!
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