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Old 10-27-2017, 09:35 AM   #1851
subydude
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There are other rules in the book that don't allow the level of mods a WTAC car can do. The Focus RS driveline is not something I would ever pick for autox. The GTR....I would, and it might fit with the current rules but it'd be a TON of money to do. A sequential is much cheaper in the 6-speed and I'm already coming up on 54.x front 45.x rear weight bias. With some lighter seats and other things I might be able to crack the 53's or 52's for front weight.

Also, this rule went out for comment in June.
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:27 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
Why V6?
There seem to be a lot of high hp/liter 6 cyl motors coming out lately, and I would imagine an easier fit too.

Maybe a EG33 would be the way to go, plus, we already know its easy enough to do.
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:29 AM   #1853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
There are other rules in the book that don't allow the level of mods a WTAC car can do. The Focus RS driveline is not something I would ever pick for autox. The GTR....I would, and it might fit with the current rules but it'd be a TON of money to do. A sequential is much cheaper in the 6-speed and I'm already coming up on 54.x front 45.x rear weight bias. With some lighter seats and other things I might be able to crack the 53's or 52's for front weight.

Also, this rule went out for comment in June.
I'm interested in keeping the 6 speed for as long as possible, after investing $$ in diff's I want to recoup some of that in fun dollars, besides, I'm also not looking to spend texa$ here.. just something that might be more stout, not a ton of extra weight, and provide a similar or higher HP/TQ figure than a highly modified ej257
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Old 10-30-2017, 09:56 AM   #1854
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Originally Posted by Krang View Post
There seem to be a lot of high hp/liter 6 cyl motors coming out lately, and I would imagine an easier fit too.

Maybe a EG33 would be the way to go, plus, we already know its easy enough to do.
The weight rules are still based on displacement so you wouldn't want to go to a bigger engine than needed. Not to mention the 150 lbs weight penalty for a cross make swap.

If you wanted a 6 cylinder there's still plenty of them available inside of Subaru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krang View Post
I'm interested in keeping the 6 speed for as long as possible, after investing $$ in diff's I want to recoup some of that in fun dollars, besides, I'm also not looking to spend texa$ here.. just something that might be more stout, not a ton of extra weight, and provide a similar or higher HP/TQ figure than a highly modified ej257
Don't think about it too much. It's the silly season where everyone has these insane thoughts and ideas that would take the GDP of a small African country to pull off to be "more competitive" when all they really need to do is drive better.
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:06 PM   #1855
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The EG33 is same make, so no 150 lbs penalty.

Worthwhile 6-cyl from Subaru
EG33
EZ30'R'
EZ36

With EZ's watch out for snapping cranks. Also, the EZ30 has never seemed to make impressive power to me. You can stroke an EJ to ~2.8 and not have the extra weight out over the nose.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 01-14-2018 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:48 PM   #1856
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If the weight rules weren't based on displacement I'd be building an EG33 for my next engine. That being said, if I could get a 2.0 to make as much torque as my 2.5 then I'd totally swap back to an EJ207.

Thing is, I know how to do it, but I also want some semblance of reliability on a privateers budget. Everyone wants 500+ whp and torque, but paying the bill for maintenance parts is not easy.
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Old 10-31-2017, 01:49 PM   #1857
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2.1 stroker, helps a lot with low end punch but gets the cube count down. Not sure the weight trade off would be WORTH it for the given class. Something like XP, it would be a no brainer.

Maybe I'll have to let you drive my bugeye when it's running on the 6758.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 10-31-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 10-31-2017, 03:30 PM   #1858
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You know how much torque and horse power mine makes. If it was close it'd be temping. .1 liters is 30 lbs so .4 would be 120 lbs off the car. Right now it has 250 lbs of ballast and I should be losing another 80-100 lbs this winter.

Not really in a position to swap power plants though so it won't be for a bit
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Old 10-31-2017, 09:08 PM   #1859
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Note where I said that for SM, I don't think the displacement is worth the power/weight.
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:18 AM   #1860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
2.1 stroker, helps a lot with low end punch but gets the cube count down. Not sure the weight trade off would be WORTH it for the given class. Something like XP, it would be a no brainer.

Maybe I'll have to let you drive my bugeye when it's running on the 6758.
Funny, I've got a 2.1L in my kitchen (yes, you read that right- my wife is awesome) that will be the next engine in my XP car once I finish it.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:16 AM   #1861
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Funny, I've got a 2.1L in my kitchen (yes, you read that right- my wife is awesome) that will be the next engine in my XP car once I finish it.
About time!! I remember we were talking about that, or even a stroked EJ18 pending weight, some five years ago.

Just curious, what rods and pistons are you running? Did you knock weight off of the crank yet? Thinking nose weight.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:39 PM   #1862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
There are other rules in the book that don't allow the level of mods a WTAC car can do. The Focus RS driveline is not something I would ever pick for autox. The GTR....I would, and it might fit with the current rules but it'd be a TON of money to do. A sequential is much cheaper in the 6-speed and I'm already coming up on 54.x front 45.x rear weight bias. With some lighter seats and other things I might be able to crack the 53's or 52's for front weight.

Also, this rule went out for comment in June.
The GTR option would be nice but as you said $ NASA. I agree the Focus RS would might not be a great option. I was thinking that with any trans and any engine available, an horizontally mounted 2 liter 4 banger AWD system could move the engine back behind the front axle. Not so much a quest for 50/50 weight distribution just an attempt to get the engine back behind the front axel. I was thinking basically what all the WRC cars have done.
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Old 11-07-2017, 03:33 PM   #1863
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Sounding quite similar to the Locost 442E that I've been working on...but old school GTR trans. Don't have that R35 transmission money.
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Old 11-07-2017, 05:07 PM   #1864
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The point that I was making is the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze. Would it be a better setup? Yes. Would that make you competitive? Not likely. For the money spent I'd do a lot of other things first and likely still have a faster car.
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:07 PM   #1865
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I'm still struggling to find a competitive setup that would likely be legal otherwise (cutting and stuff). There's probably a host of fwd chassis that just became competitive to hondas with D motor swaps since they'll get non-glass trannys with an actual selection of LSDs (I'm looking at you 90's mazda). Other than that what chassis was there with just no decent motor options like the fiat x1/9? Classic Minis?
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:10 AM   #1866
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I was going back through Fastracks and noticed something interesting in the one August

Quote:
Prepared
#21414 Turbo jets and other anti-lag
The PAC is seeking feedback on restricting “rocket” engine type anti-lag systems. We
feel there are sufficient safety and performance related reasons to restrict this anti-lag
system. This change is not intended to make unintentional combustion outside of the
engine and head, or elliptical housing and rotor “chamber” (aka, backfiring) or similar
events forbidden by this rule.
The PAC recommends adding to 17.10.D:
“4. No fuel shall be added after the exhaust valve on a piston engine, or after the
beginning of the exhaust port of a rotary engine. “
I'm curious if anyone knows where that came from? Did somebody build a homebrew rocket, or is this more of a prevention thing?

I know rockets have been discussed in this thread in the past. It will be interesting to see how that pans out in Prepared. The wording seems like it still doesn't prohibit antilag devices/methods so long as no fuel is injected downstream of the exhaust valve. You could theoretically still even run a rocket off unburned fuel, but I imagine a pretty advanced EMS setup would be required
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:15 PM   #1867
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Robert Thornes s2000 in SSM
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:24 PM   #1868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
I was going back through Fastracks and noticed something interesting in the one August



I'm curious if anyone knows where that came from? Did somebody build a homebrew rocket, or is this more of a prevention thing?

I know rockets have been discussed in this thread in the past. It will be interesting to see how that pans out in Prepared. The wording seems like it still doesn't prohibit antilag devices/methods so long as no fuel is injected downstream of the exhaust valve. You could theoretically still even run a rocket off unburned fuel, but I imagine a pretty advanced EMS setup would be required

Funny thing is, you don't have to add fuel into the exhaust stream when it comes out of the cylinder. All you need to add is fresh air.
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:35 PM   #1869
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Funny thing is, you don't have to add fuel into the exhaust stream when it comes out of the cylinder. All you need to add is fresh air.
Yup, I wrote that in my letter to the PAC. All they're doing is making rocket anti-lag more abusive to the motor by forcing you to have the fuel go through the motor and wash down the cylinder walls rather than just have it bypass the motor.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:24 PM   #1870
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Yup, I wrote that in my letter to the PAC. All they're doing is making rocket anti-lag more abusive to the motor by forcing you to have the fuel go through the motor and wash down the cylinder walls rather than just have it bypass the motor.
Indeed...or use GDI and have an injection on the exhaust stroke, like what's done in the diesel world to meet emissions and avoid an extra injector.

Heck we did the 'rocket' at Volvo/Mack powertrain for trash trucks. We bypassed air from the hot pipe to the exhaust, add fuel (but had 7th injector), burner chamber, and viola...enough heat from wasted diesel to keep the engine after treatment up to temp while lifting trash cans

If you have variable valve timing, you could make some large overlap with an early injection and get some fuel directly into the exhaust.

Modern endurance turbo cars use a WHOLE different method of antilag...because fuel consumption matters there. Ever wonder why they 'fart'?

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 11-24-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:48 PM   #1871
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We had a conversation on the SMAC about these, and while it's tabled for further discussion the general feeling was we liked them and thought it was less abusive than anti-lag. You can achieve the same thing with twin charging so why ban it.

It's generally cost prohibitive due to ECU and materials, and outside of Thorne (who likely didn't need it to win anyway) no one else has done it.
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:23 PM   #1872
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Thorne without the rocket and the large slow spoiling turbo has laid the smack down on our region! Iím glad we donít have to deal with that every event anymore!
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Old 11-24-2017, 06:38 PM   #1873
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It's generally cost prohibitive due to ECU and materials, and outside of Thorne (who likely didn't need it to win anyway) no one else has done it.
I'm pretty sure it can be done on a more standard stand alone, with some help from an Arduino.
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:14 PM   #1874
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I'm pretty sure it can be done on a more standard stand alone, with some help from an Arduino.
Probably, although you'd need to have a stand alone that has multiple fueling maps based on a switched input. I have a lowly Haltech Sport 2000 in mine and can say it wouldn't work to run it. Probably need something like a Motec with the secondary box converting signals from sensors to run the switches in the primary box.

And a good bit of inconel
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:15 PM   #1875
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Probably, although you'd need to have a stand alone that has multiple fueling maps based on a switched input. I have a lowly Haltech Sport 2000 in mine and can say it wouldn't work to run it. Probably need something like a Motec with the secondary box converting signals from sensors to run the switches in the primary box.

And a good bit of inconel
Multiple fueling maps? Nope. Just need an idle switch on the TB, the ability to run 1 fuel injector, the ability to control an electronic throttle body or just rather large solenoid valve, and the ability to measure turbine speed, and intake pressure. I'm actually not sure you even need the ability to use an electronic tps. I think you could just have a valve to the exhaust that opened when you closed the normal throttle body (yay linkages) and throttle the gas jet with fuel. Also not certain that for the duty cycles we'd run it at an auto-x that you'd need inconel in the combustor.
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