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Old 05-19-2023, 05:19 PM   #26
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See also 276 hp Japanese car gentlemen's agreement and 55mph speedos. I don't think performance based metrics will work.

There needs to be more financial disincentives for giant vehicles. Gas should be more expensive and registration should be by the lb. Commercial vehicle exemptions.

Im no hippy tree hugger but it just makes sense. Vehicle sizes, weights, and poor efficencies (to include massive resources to build) have gotten out of hand to a real detriment to society.
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Old 05-20-2023, 02:55 AM   #27
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^^^ In HI, expensive gas? Yes. Vehicle registration calculated by weight, regardless of age/depreciation? Yes (IIRC up to 6000 lbs. and then "flat rate"). Commercial vehicles fall under a different tax schedule. Add narrow lanes and heavy traffic to that, yet those things have not lessened the popularity of trucks/SUVs here.

Used to do some work that took me to local DMV office (checking vehicle records) - crazy difference between cars like Miata/Elise vs. full-sized truck/SUV. The guys with Kei cars probably laugh at everyone else come renewal time. Shocking how much motorcycles weigh these days - especially the non-sportbikes.

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Old 05-20-2023, 06:21 PM   #28
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I honestly wonder if there is any actual evidence that isn't anecdotal to back up what you've heard, vs what I suspect?



at the end of the day, I don't want to be in a wreck with either of them.

the only reason I say 30 year old truck is because every 1990ish F150 I still see on the road has a noticeable saggy frame.

maybe when you were a firefighter the frames were only 10 or 15 years old, but they're over 30 years old these days, and it's the kinetic energy of 4000lbs slamming into you at 60 vs the kinetic energy of 9000lbs slamming into you at 60.

my calculator has a sad face in both of those scenarios.

my only hope is that either of the drivers will be alert enough to try and take evasive action, and their truck ends up in a rollover, and during the rollover, they just kind of rolls over the top of my vehicle so there is minimal energy transferred from their vehicle to mine.

I'd be curious as well. I can say I certainly pay a bit more attention to avoid the lane departure warning when I jump in one for whatever reason. Still driving some old stuff. I've pushed off my new car purchase yet again because the amount of traveling I've ended up scheduling this year and other reasons I won't share yet.


As for vehicles in a crash. That "when you were a firefighter".....is more actually STILL a firefighter.



The older the vehicle, the worst the outcome for the occupant. Surely you've seen the IIHS crash video demonstrating a modern(well it was 2009) Chevy crashing into a 1959. Instant death versus bum knee. I agree lets avoid an accident altogether; but, I'd rather crash in the 9000lb car than the old flimsy thing. And I'd rather be in a modern car if I were hit by a 9000lb vehicle than being in a 90s pickup. Or anything that old.


Go find that video. That old "they were built like tanks" will be erased from your mind.
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Old 05-21-2023, 12:59 AM   #29
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Okay, this is not news, nor is it a rumor, but the collective people in news and rumors are the ones I like the most (even those who are in violent disagreement with me 90% of the time - yes, I like you as well).

Was reading about the new REV RAM 1500. Vehicle will probably weight in at near 9000 lbs or more. Top of the line models will get estimated over 500 miles of range (remains to be seen). However I stopped in my tracks at that vehicle reaching 0-60 in 4 seconds. While fast acceleration is absolutely nothing special in any EV, I started to think about a 9000 lbs vehicle with that kind of acceleration and while I love absurdity in vehicles, at some point, this may be a smidge, just a tiny bit excessive.

I am fully aware that acceleration from a stop in itself is not dangerous, It got me thinking about how much kinetic energy a rolling 9000 lbs truck will have.

I thought about a potential way to level the playing field where cars and safety regulations can perhaps come to a sensible blend.

What if vehicles were limited in speed by weight. Meaning how much kinetic energy can a vehicle dispense upon another vehicle. Maybe a 9000 lb truck can only travel at 75 mph. Lighter vehicles are allowed to move faster?

There are a LOT of potholes in this idea that I have thought of not to mention how many everybody else can think of. It is more of a conversation starter that is not about the new WRX or about GR corolla that we could stretch our intellectual collective on.

IF you take into consideration how increasing vehicle weight in the past 20 years has changed what crash safety features are standard and how cars are shaped and designed now, this seems like a topic for ripe discussion here.

Electrification is going to make every car on the road massively heavier and protection from those heavier cars will require more crash protection thusly creating a new spiral of weight increases.

We could limit speed by weight?
We could limit acceleration by weight?
How will crash standards be effected by this?
Can our current infrastructure of how we build and maintain roads withstand this heavier onslaught?

All seems like a fun topic over beers.

Shoot me down and say if this is dumb if you like, or delete it if you will.
Trying something new here.

My only solution to these types of problems is to change how we license drivers. Normal Low speed cars should be kept the same. As the HP, Weight and Acceleration go up. The requirements for getting and keeping your license should change as well. If your heavy and fast you need to take additional course and requirements. Take away their ability to do drivers ed.

In the scope of things Stopping a 9000lb truck plus a 7000lb trailer is going to be stupidly scarry. They should have a CDL license for this beast.
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Old 05-21-2023, 02:09 AM   #30
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The only solution to protect against a 9000 lb truck is an 18,000 lb truck.
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Old 05-21-2023, 10:30 AM   #31
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The only solution to protect against a 9000 lb truck is an 18,000 lb truck.
This is how it will actually play out because America.

IMO, if we actually wanted to fix ****, there should be a benchmark "reasonable" vehicle. Toyota Sienna can get 0-60 in 8 seconds, 35mpg, carry 8 people, and weighs 4700lbs. If your car weighs more than the benchmark and goes faster, please prepare for your advanced license exam. If your car gets worse gas mileage, here's your guzzler tax based on how far it misses. All of a sudden, people are buying reasonable vehicles again. If you want ridiculous, you can still get it... you just have to pay for it and prove you understand the responsibility.
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Old 05-22-2023, 11:58 AM   #32
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not sure... reasonable is different for each person depending on their needs. Like I said, I do not have an elegant solution to this. The problem is so entrenched now. I generally like for people to be able to buy what they want/need. I do not like social engineering through fees to force my agenda or anybody elses.
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Old 05-22-2023, 01:47 PM   #33
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Iím not proposing restricting what people can buy. Iím recommending that there is probably something between a CDL and a regular driverís license. If you want to buy a Hummer EV and pull a 6000lb camper behind you, please show that you are capable and knowledgeable. The market isnít going to put a cap on it by themselves.


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Old 05-22-2023, 02:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
Iím not proposing restricting what people can buy. Iím recommending that there is probably something between a CDL and a regular driverís license. If you want to buy a Hummer EV and pull a 6000lb camper behind you, please show that you are capable and knowledgeable. The market isnít going to put a cap on it by themselves.


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Although not able to accelerate like a bat out of hell, RV's don't require a special license (up to 26,000lbs & 40ft of length). If a school bus is yellow & transporting children, it requires a CDL, paint it blue and you're good to go.
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Old 05-22-2023, 02:13 PM   #35
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excellent points guys.
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Old 05-23-2023, 12:29 AM   #36
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One axle, your fine, 2 axles on that trailer, no no no.
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Old 05-23-2023, 09:28 AM   #37
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My pontoon boat has two axles. I pull it easily with my RAM. Give me an example of what I should have to do to pull my pontoon.... Not being defensive... just curious as to what changes are being talked about. We are having a conversation with many opinions being proposed and so far everybody is being very cordial and friendly. It is almost as if we have managed to be normal functional adults :O

LOL
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Old 05-23-2023, 11:00 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
My pontoon boat has two axles. I pull it easily with my RAM. Give me an example of what I should have to do to pull my pontoon.... Not being defensive... just curious as to what changes are being talked about. We are having a conversation with many opinions being proposed and so far everybody is being very cordial and friendly. It is almost as if we have managed to be normal functional adults :O

LOL
My initial thought is that a lot can go wrong pulling a trailer, then thought to myself that I haven't seen many accidents with trailers. Again, not saying they don't happen or without frequency. Maybe just other places and I just haven't seen them. But, because of that, I agree with you. I have pulled things without problem. But, I would agree about having a license for larger and heavier vehicles. I'm not required to have a special license to drive my Fire Engine; but, I had to go through a qualification for it. And then took a test for my promotion(years ago).
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Old 05-23-2023, 06:56 PM   #39
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... We are having a conversation with many opinions being proposed and so far everybody is being very cordial and friendly. It is almost as if we have managed to be normal functional adults :O

LOL
Its a pretty cool place lol.
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Old 05-24-2023, 08:19 AM   #40
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I'm going to poke holes in, or give more context towards, my own devils advocate "RV/Bus" statement.

RV's spend most of their time parked, yeah they may cross the nation multiple times in their lives, but that's nothing compared to a contractor that uses their truck daily and piles 30k-40k or more on it annually.

Same goes for retired busses, they aren't hauling a bunch of children around daily anymore, they are primarily used to bring church-groups places as most every other organization will hire out a bus/shuttle service instead which comes with a CDL equipped driver.

To go off on a tangent, because that's what I do, once you get your motorcycle license in the states you can buy a cruiser with a 250cc thumper or you can buy a Hyabusa, it's up to the individual to know and ride within their limits/ability; this isn't the case in other countries with tiered licenses. I'm not suggesting the tiered approach in the states, just using it as a point of comparison; of course ramming 400lbs of plastic and aluminum into the average CUV on the road isn't likely to result in injury to the CUV occupants, so it's a tangential comparison, more about what an individual can reasonably handle/control, power and/or mass wise, than the safety of others.

I'm willing to bet the Hummer EV will be easier for the average Joe to accelerate to 60mph in ~3-4 seconds than hustling a 600cc/1000cc bike to 60 in the same timeframe would be.

I remember when the 2nd gen lightning came out and people/the media lost their minds over a truck that could accelerate that quickly & go that fast, 5.4s to 60 & 148mph top speed; a current gen V6 Camry can almost match those numbers, but also has significantly more safety features & doesn't weigh ~4,700lbs.
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Old 05-24-2023, 02:54 PM   #41
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I will also add that acceleration doesn't factor in the kinetic energy formula.
It doesn't matter how fast the moving object gets up to speed; kinetic energy at said speed remains the same (1/2 * mass * speed squared).
At some point, speed becomes the dominant factor as mass is a constant; for a 9000 lbs truck that would be at speeds above 100 mph (if I got the math right...).
Which means, if a lighter vehicle travels at a high enough speed it can make up for its lower mass against an heavier 9000 lbs Hummer .
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Old 05-24-2023, 03:28 PM   #42
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I will also add that acceleration doesn't factor in the kinetic energy formula.
It doesn't matter how fast the moving object gets up to speed; kinetic energy at said speed remains the same (1/2 * mass * speed squared).
At some point, speed becomes the dominant factor as mass is a constant; for a 9000 lbs truck that would be at speeds above 100 mph (if I got the math right...).
Which means, if a lighter vehicle travels at a high enough speed it can make up for its lower mass against an heavier 9000 lbs Hummer .
The ability to accelerate 9,000lbs quickly will undoubtedly be a factor in accidents, eg. people being stupid at stoplights/stop signs, meaning they will be at a higher speed sooner than if they had crashed something slower.

I've got to wonder though, how many Hummer accidents have been reported due to negligence/unsafe behavior, as well as how many Raptor accidents have been reported for the same reason. They are sold in such low numbers and command a high sticker price; it's not like when a new/inexperienced driver gets their hands on an older performance car for a relatively low sum, we're talking six-figure vehicles, yeah idiots crash super cars, but there are so few of them that even though one could argue that the "percentage of registered super cars crashed is high" the number of super car crashes is low when compared to other vehicles.
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Old 05-24-2023, 04:16 PM   #43
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The ability to accelerate 9,000lbs quickly will undoubtedly be a factor in accidents, eg. people being stupid at stoplights/stop signs, meaning they will be at a higher speed sooner than if they had crashed something slower.

I've got to wonder though, how many Hummer accidents have been reported due to negligence/unsafe behavior, as well as how many Raptor accidents have been reported for the same reason. They are sold in such low numbers and command a high sticker price; it's not like when a new/inexperienced driver gets their hands on an older performance car for a relatively low sum, we're talking six-figure vehicles, yeah idiots crash super cars, but there are so few of them that even though one could argue that the "percentage of registered super cars crashed is high" the number of super car crashes is low when compared to other vehicles.
I don't disagree that badly managed acceleration can be dangerous.
But do we really want laws around acceleration on the books in addition to posted speed limits?
It's a slippery slope that I wouldn't want to backslide into...
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Old 05-24-2023, 10:51 PM   #44
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Sounds as if GM is not even remotely taking weight into account based on this teardown report.
A Teardown Of The GMC Hummer EV's Battery Pack Shows Just How Massive It is
The battery pack weighs more than some entire cars.
https://jalopnik.com/a-teardown-of-t...jus-1850467905

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The GMC Hummer EV certainly lives up to the Hummer name. Itís massive both in size and weight and may not be very efficient despite it being an EV. Now, thanks to a teardown done by Munro & Associates, we have an idea of just how good of a job GM did in packaging its Ultium battery pack. The short answer is they didnít do a very good job.

Itís important to point out that while Sandy Munro has highlighted how bad the Model 3ís build quality is, he remains a Tesla fan, so take things here with a grain of salt, but if nothing else the teardown does show just how massive the battery is.

The Hummer EV itself is already heavy, tipping the scales at over 9,000 pounds, with a large part of that weight being its 246 kWh battery, currently the biggest in the business.

Munro & Associates engineers Antonio DiNunno and Julian Aytes note that when dropped from the vehicle, the pack weighed in at 1,278 kg or 2,818 pounds. For perspective, the heaviest Mazda Miata you can buy, a fully loaded Miata RF Grand Touring with an automatic transmission, weighs 322 pounds less (2,496 pounds) than the pack.

In a warning for those worried about whatís going to happen if the battery needs to come out of the vehicle for servicing, the engineers noted that it wasnít exactly the easiest thing to remove. Its weight didnít help things, but the main culprit was what the pack itself is made of: stamped steel. The engineers said typically when they do these battery teardowns, they expect to see an aluminum cradle as automakers have been going for weight savings. Except GM, that is. The pack is also made up of a complex assortment of individual steel pieces held together by 3,500 laser welds. All this adds cost to the manufacturing of the truck.

Other components of the battery pack trouble the engineers, too, like packaging difficulties, though I still canít get over the size and weight, which was maybe inevitable, this being America.
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:03 AM   #45
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Sounds as if GM is not even remotely taking weight into account based on this teardown report.
A Teardown Of The GMC Hummer EV's Battery Pack Shows Just How Massive It is
The battery pack weighs more than some entire cars.
i mean, why would a hummer not prioritize physical strength and durability over efficiency? Has a hummer ever been efficient? Not all EV's need to fit into some uber efficient, futuristic looking, lightweight box. Journalists grasping at straws.

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Old 05-26-2023, 11:36 PM   #46
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...do we really want laws around acceleration on the books ...
Dam straight, the people demand it.
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Old 05-30-2023, 11:40 AM   #47
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Interesting article on the Hummer. I am sure costs were cut to increase profit margin as is typical of all car makers, but taken to new heights with GM in typical fashion. I do not feel the Hummer is indicative of modern day America. I hated the Hummer before, and I dislike it now, but I will admit I am a hypocrite for hating its lazy needless design. In my biased opinion, it is a bridge too far, it jumps the shark, whatever you want to say. It is excess just to be excessive.

How is this different than an supercar? I will be damned if I could come up with a logical reason for either, so therefore, I call myself a hypocrite. I would be fine if this huge beast never sees the light of day.
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Old 05-30-2023, 02:19 PM   #48
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Sounds as if GM is not even remotely taking weight into account based on this teardown report.
and why should they? as long as they keep the full weight under whatever threshold keeps them in the class of light duty truck they want to be in, it's a BEV, they get to signal their greenness, and satisfy the mob.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
The older the vehicle, the worst the outcome for the occupant. Surely you've seen the IIHS crash video demonstrating a modern(well it was 2009) Chevy crashing into a 1959. Instant death versus bum knee. I agree lets avoid an accident altogether; but, I'd rather crash in the 9000lb car than the old flimsy thing. And I'd rather be in a modern car if I were hit by a 9000lb vehicle than being in a 90s pickup. Or anything that old.


Go find that video. That old "they were built like tanks" will be erased from your mind.
just to clarify, the equation, as I understood it, was:

me in my car vs 1990 F150 (4000lbs fatigued frame)
me in my car vs 2023 HUMMER (9000lbs brand new)

and here's the thing, I do not care about the occupant of the truck.

I care about me, who is not in the truck, I am in the car that the truck is hitting.

so yeah, maybe I'm selfish, but I don't particularly care how well their truck protects the occupant of the truck in a crash with my car, I'm just saying the 30 year old truck that weighs 4000lbs with the fatigued frame might transfer less energy into my car than the new truck that weighs 9000lbs.

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Old 05-30-2023, 08:10 PM   #49
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[quote=samagon;46853646


just to clarify, the equation, as I understood it, was:

me in my car vs 1990 F150 (4000lbs fatigued frame)
me in my car vs 2023 HUMMER (9000lbs brand new)

and here's the thing, I do not care about the occupant of the truck.

I care about me, who is not in the truck, I am in the car that the truck is hitting.

so yeah, maybe I'm selfish, but I don't particularly care how well their truck protects the occupant of the truck in a crash with my car, I'm just saying the 30 year old truck that weighs 4000lbs with the fatigued frame might transfer less energy into my car than the new truck that weighs 9000lbs.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. I misunderstood that. Totally on me. I apparently read it as "I'd rather take my chances IN a F-150" versus "WITH an f-150". In which, I WOULD have to agree with you.



edit: Oops. I deleted too much and too lazy to fix it properly.
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