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Old 05-16-2011, 07:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delongedoug View Post
Grammar is vocabulary?
His vocabulary does not contain the contraction of "you are".


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Old 05-16-2011, 07:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protege Menace View Post
His vocabulary does not contain the contraction of "you are".


And because of that, YORE SOL
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:18 PM   #28
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I'm just gonna be quiet and keep reading.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Protege Menace View Post
I don't get it.

So my computer needs to be processing _____ when not in use, like folding at home?

And I can get free "money" by doing this...

This is how I'm seeing it. What exactly are our computers processing to get these coins, are they really just complex math problems, or is this just a ploy to get thousands of people to do work for you without having to actually buy the hardware or pay them?
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:22 PM   #30
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I'll stick to WoW gold and Zynga credits to launder my drug money.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:22 PM   #31
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the **** is this ****?
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
-How/Why would people agree on the value?
-If you use these to purchase a good or service...how does that in any way help the one providing it? A company can't pay their employees in bitcoins, they can't pay their bills in bitcoins...so unless some massive shift takes place, it is essentially an online-only barter system.
There are exchange houses that will transfer back and forth between currencies outside of the bartering boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
-You don't think someone will come along and undermine this new system?
-You still didn't answer how this threatens that power base. The simple existence of another type of trade or currency does not threaten the rich. When Amazon started issuing 'amazon money'...gift cards...did the wealthy of the world start peeing their pants?
Of course not. That's a gift card. Who cares if a business creates gift cards that force you to spend money at their place of business.

This is untraceable currency that you can send to anyone from anywhere.

I'm not promising to understand every aspect of it, but undermining it would involve figuring out a way to interject into the shared transaction stream or redefining the definition of a correct solution/coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
So it's like money. You realize that cash is peer-to-peer, right? And you can transfer it electronically? Or you can hand it to someone? Or mail it? Fedex?
...and that banks and governments and companies can prevent you from transfering using those methods. Rememeber when people refused to complete transactions for wikileaks? Bam...your life just got really tough.

This system provides circumvention around this blocking point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
There are people in actual legitimate (and otherwise) professions, whose whole job every day is to move money electronically from one account to another.
In some cases, those sytems are archaic and outdated. Not saying traders or investors, but tellers were certainly reduced after cash machines came out. Progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
I don't see at all how this is huge. In fact, I'm wondering how this is any different from money in a game like WoW...except that you can buy and sell WoW money for actual cash.
Again, trading houses exist to trade bitcoin currency into dollars and euros, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
It seems like the whole 'hugeness' of this whole thing is the hugeness of the assumptions that this is going to become a massively popular thing where people will be buying and selling actual goods and services using Bitcoin.
Not so much. Perhaps in time. This is huge because it is no longer possible for a government or a bank to press a key and prevent you from accessing your funds.

This is system to store and transfer money directly between parties. No transaction fee. No identification. No Freezing accounts. No bank statements.

It's cash...but not as traceable or as restrictive as cash.

So yeah...criminal elements will be the first to embrace this. If this doesn't take off, something very similar will at some point.

-*
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMP RUN View Post
Sounds like something that no one besides nerdy people would trust, and is therefore doomed to stay small or fail.
Solution: Rename it the iCoin and plaster pictures of fruit on it. People will be converting benjamins for this crap in no-time.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:44 PM   #34
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I, for one, am not entirely worried about my bank accounts getting frozen.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:51 PM   #35
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I'm not understanding all the jargon .... so in laymens term:

- I let them use my computer to process whatever it is they need to process
- I get bitcoins for (X) amount of data processed
- Trade bitcoins on clearinghouse for cash
- XXX
- Profit

???
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:54 PM   #36
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Very interesting reading some peoples comments on the BoingBoing.net article.
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/15....html#comments
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:57 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star*Child View Post
There are exchange houses that will transfer back and forth between currencies outside of the bartering boards.
So it's a closed (in theory) system...other than keeping it secret, how does this benefit the person with the bitcoin? Again, this is basically having WoW money.

Quote:
Of course not. That's a gift card. Who cares if a business creates gift cards that force you to spend money at their place of business.
And who cares if you have a currency that can only be used online? And who would use this? Especially if the only way to actually access the money is to exchange (at cost...looks like .65% plus markup/markdown) to actual money.
Quote:
This is untraceable currency that you can send to anyone from anywhere.
It is exactly as 'untraceable' as real currency. If you have a system to validate a legitimate 'bitcoin' from a counterfeit, you can trace it. Not to mention that, again...at this point you still have to convert to actual money somewhere.
Quote:
I'm not promising to understand every aspect of it, but undermining it would involve figuring out a way to interject into the shared transaction stream or redefining the definition of a correct solution/coin.
As near as I can tell, either:
-Each bitcoin is independently stored and can eventually be copied/reproduced by a hacker.
-Each bitcoin is tracked by some system. This is more likely because they 'know' how much of the currency is in circulation. This means that the Bitcoins are in fact traceable through that system, and that the system can be compromised.

Quote:
...and that banks and governments and companies can prevent you from transfering using those methods. Rememeber when people refused to complete transactions for wikileaks? Bam...your life just got really tough.
And if your bank account shows deposits and withdrawals to a bitcoin exchange...they can't touch you? Not to mention that, in case you haven't seen...the government CAN track P2P services, and your money still has to go in and out somewhere. All you've done is temporarily hide the money at a cost, and in a widely variable exchange-rate currency. Congrats.

Seriously, this is WoW money.
Quote:
This system provides circumvention around this blocking point.
How? When you exchange the funds...what are you exchanging into?

Quote:
In some cases, those sytems are archaic and outdated. Not saying traders or investors, but tellers were certainly reduced after cash machines came out. Progress.
True...and thanks to machines, we have less farmers working the fields. Doesn't mean farms are obsolete.

Quote:
Again, trading houses exist to trade bitcoin currency into dollars and euros, etc.
Into actual money. Just like WoW money.

Quote:
Not so much. Perhaps in time. This is huge because it is no longer possible for a government or a bank to press a key and prevent you from accessing your funds.
Apparently if they sieze your computer, they've done the job. Not to mention, let's say you've got tons of money floating around in m(oney)P3 files...and the government freezes your real accounts. What can you do with your fake, online money?

Quote:
This is system to store and transfer money directly between parties. No transaction fee. No identification. No Freezing accounts. No bank statements.
And that doesn't allow for compromise? You're kidding.

Not to mention, there IS a transaction fee...when you get actual money.
Quote:
It's cash...but not as traceable or as restrictive as cash.
Not as restrictive? Seriously? Find me a list of things I can buy with this currency.
Quote:
So yeah...criminal elements will be the first to embrace this. If this doesn't take off, something very similar will at some point.

-*
You mean like WoW?
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:46 PM   #38
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I have been peripherally involved in Bitcoin since last December, so I will try and answer some of your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
So it's a closed (in theory) system...other than keeping it secret, how does this benefit the person with the bitcoin? Again, this is basically having WoW money.
Bitcoin provides several key features which make it far more interesting than "WoW money":
  1. It's not controlled by a central authority. "WoW money" is.
  2. "WoW money" requires trust between users to exchange coins. Bitcoin does not.
  3. "WoW money" has no scarcity. It can be produced in arbitrary volumes. Bitcoin's scarcity is precisely determined.
There are many more differences, but these are the big ones.

Quote:
And who cares if you have a currency that can only be used online? And who would use this? Especially if the only way to actually access the money is to exchange (at cost...looks like .65% plus markup/markdown) to actual money.
In this wonderful age of teh internets, many things are bought and sold online. I hear the young kids love it.

Paying a .65% conversion fee from Bitcoins to traditional currencies is very very cheap. When you consider that Visa takes a flat 3% off the top of every credit transaction, Paypal takes 3%, and most other electronic payment systems take several percentage points, a fee of .65% is pretty fantastic.

Quote:
It is exactly as 'untraceable' as real currency. If you have a system to validate a legitimate 'bitcoin' from a counterfeit, you can trace it. Not to mention that, again...at this point you still have to convert to actual money somewhere.
There is an element of traceability built into the system. You can observe transactions in the block-chain using simple tools. However, you won't be able to precisely identify who uses a particular sending/receiving address, so narrowing down information to individuals is Hard.

Bitcoin's goal is to make electronic payments as close to cash transactions as possible, so your criticism about anonymity regarding cash is appropriate.

However, it's far more anonymous than all existing electronic payment systems. Most electronic payment systems are heavily tied into the banking infrastructure, which basically monitors your transactions 24/7 due to US government regulations on money laundering. There is already at least one drug dealer taking Bitcoins as payment, and I speculate that a significant portion of the total Bitcoins in circulation are used for drug trafficking. Not the best poster child for Bitcoin, but it's a very powerful example of the level of anonymity afforded.

Quote:
As near as I can tell, either:
-Each bitcoin is independently stored and can eventually be copied/reproduced by a hacker.
Absolutely not. This premise is the entire foundation of Bitcoin. Read Satoshi's paper if you want to understand how this is done.
Quote:
-Each bitcoin is tracked by some system. This is more likely because they 'know' how much of the currency is in circulation. This means that the Bitcoins are in fact traceable through that system, and that the system can be compromised.
It is "tracked" in the sense that the entire network knows about all transactions. It just doesn't know who corresponds with each transaction.

Quote:
And if your bank account shows deposits and withdrawals to a bitcoin exchange...they can't touch you? Not to mention that, in case you haven't seen...the government CAN track P2P services, and your money still has to go in and out somewhere. All you've done is temporarily hide the money at a cost, and in a widely variable exchange-rate currency. Congrats.
Exchanging Bitcoins for traditional currency is the weakest part of the entire economy for sure. This part is still vulnerable to goverment intervention or other targetted attacks. It's a known problem and the Bitcoin community is actively working on better solutions.
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:55 PM   #39
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Just wanted to tackle a few more:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebo View Post
It's not going to 'take off', for a couple reasons.

-It will be 'hacked' or otherwise undermined.
The 2nd biggest vulnerability of Bitcoins would be a cryptographic attack (1st is government crackdown). Current users are all aware of this. There have been many crypto scientists who have tried to come up with attack vectors. So far the only significant attack discovered is one already described in Satoshi's original paper. I'm not going into the details because Nabisco users probably won't understand it, but the greater the network power Bitcoin has the harder this is to pull off in practice.
Quote:
-Like everything else on the internet, as soon as it becomes remotely popular, alternative 'Bitcoin' type services will become available, each competing and stealing business from another.
There would be no economic incentive to accept a newer flavor of Bitcoin if the original is available, unless there is some kind of fundamental difference in security or usefulness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protege Menace View Post
I don't get it.

So my computer needs to be processing _____ when not in use, like folding at home?

And I can get free "money" by doing this...

It's really not "free" money. You are being compensated for a service you are providing for the entire Bitcoin network. The process of hashing ("mining") is something that is required for the Bitcoin network to function at all, and the greater the hash power of the total network, the more secure the entire system is. Users are rewarded for providing cryptographic power to the network by receiving periodic Bitcoins which are created for the purposes of managed inflation.

If you go to the Bitcoin wiki there is a better description of the process.
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:02 PM   #40
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How will this affect unemployment?
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:48 PM   #41
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someone paypal me $1000 and i'll give you 8 bitcoins worth $1m
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:11 PM   #42
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This is a pyramid scheme.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awdaddict172 View Post
someone paypal me $1000 and i'll give you 8 bitcoins worth $1m
I'll trade you one of these for 8 bitcoins:




And to starchild...currencies that are "untraceable" are only a concern for people involved in illegal activities...I don't care if someone traces that I bought a donut this morning...even if I don't have the receipt.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:57 PM   #44
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did they remove the limit on the number of coins that could be generated/used in the "market place"?
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:57 PM   #45
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Ok, so what companies currently take these so called "bitcoins"?

Edit:

So I still don't get how these bitcoins have real world value. How can 1 bitcoin be worth $7 USD for something that has no intrinsic value? From what I've seen on the bitcoin site is only some odd "shops" accept these bitcoins for some odd useless product, if these have no real world value then where does the $7 per bitcoin come into play?

Last edited by infox; 05-16-2011 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:12 PM   #46
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It looks like DeBeers is branching out.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:57 PM   #47
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I was just trying to generate conversation. I'd only been reading about it for 10 or 15 minutes, but it was an interesting enough concept that I thought I'd try and defend/answerQuestions.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the fundamentals, this is what I find thought provoking:
Someone has created a fiat currency where it is 'impossible' to create more money than has been defined by the equation; Bitcoins are limited because there are only a certain number of solutions that fit the pattern/definition-of-bitcoin.


So I'm not some econ genius, but I don't understand the role of "coin mining rate". Each time a new coin-chunk was computed, it sounded as if it raised the value of the other coins in existence? It seems that it would have gone the other way since there is now more currency? (inflation?)

-*
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=C=- View Post
I'll trade you one of these for 8 bitcoins:




And to starchild...currencies that are "untraceable" are only a concern for people involved in illegal activities...I don't care if someone traces that I bought a donut this morning...even if I don't have the receipt.
and when they make your donut illegal for some political bull**** reason....what then???

'illegal'????
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:10 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star*Child View Post
So I'm not some econ genius, but I don't understand the role of "coin mining rate". Each time a new coin-chunk was computed, it sounded as if it raised the value of the other coins in existence? It seems that it would have gone the other way since there is now more currency? (inflation?)

-*
I'm not a genius either, so this is probably wrong.

Typical currency: your 1 unit is a percentage of the total economic "pie". If you add some units to the pie, it decreases the percentage of each unit without changing the size of the pie.

Nerd-tender: They are actually increasing the size of the pie while adding currency.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:15 AM   #50
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A couple observations.

1. How are fractional coins handled? Given the anticipated inflation, a minimum transaction could end up being several hundred dollars fairly quickly.

2. 21 million coins is quite a small set compared to the size of the "real" economy of even a small town. See also, item #1.

3. Mining rate seems to be a function of the C/GPU power dedicated to mining. That power per CPU is doubling roughly every 18 months, and the installed base of gflops/sec is doubling even faster. Seems the economy will mine all available bitcoins at an increasing rate. Once the mine busts, inflation will rapidly take off. See also, items 1 and 2...

4. Exactly what problem is the mining solving?

5. What's the exchange rate between bitcoin 1.0's and bitcoin 2.0 with it's 500 quintillion possible coins (number pulled from ass).
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