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Old 10-25-2017, 03:38 PM   #26
Lansonfloyd
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I think what I'll have to do is record the average response of the engine running, record the response of the system with the engine running, and Boolean out the difference. REW can do this, luckily. Just more work is all. But yeah, aftermarket may end up being the cure if the response varies with engine running.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:32 PM   #27
Ziggyrama
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Looks like an interesting build. Few suggestions:

- measure with the car off. Engine running in our cars adds bloat in lower frequencies.

- there is a good technique for averaging your measurements, L and R side. For each side, you should take 8 measurements. For left, take 5 near your left ear, 3 near your right ear and average out. For right side, take 6 near your right ear, 2 near your left ear and average out again. Why? It is related to psychoacoustics, the fact that you're not sitting in the cetner and how your brain perceives the sounds. This writeup explains the technique in great detail:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ur-system.html

- IMO, aiming the mids at the windshield will not yield good results. Before you make a decision, prop them up in the corner or attach temporarily to your pillar and try different positions. I suspect you will hear best results with them being mounted at the bottom of the A pillar, either aimed directly at each other or slight angled in towards the interior. Since you're planning to fabricate pillars anyway, might as well get the best position for the mids too.

- given you're building SQ system, give up on the stock HU. It's not going to give you a clean signal and I believe it does change frequency response with respect to volume which will be a tuning nightmare. Consider going with a HU with at least 4V preouts to give yourself good signal going into the DSP. If you can do optical to DSP directly, that would be dope but finding a good HU that can do that is a crap shoot.

- you didn't mention if this is an active or passive setup. What are you planning to do? If you're going active, you should measure each driver separately and make sure the slopes match your curve with the xovers set. If you get your TA right, they will sum properly.

- you're measuring at relatively low volume levels. I suspect you're not listening at 80dB to your musing Try raising the volume up to a level near the one that you typically listen to. I think low to mid 90s is a good target level for measurements.

- looking at your target curve, and this is just an observation and it is highly subjective but it is typically a good idea to cut 2-3dB between 2-4kHz to remove harshness. Also, your top end drops off very rapidly which means you will lose a lot of subtle detail and air in your sound. I typically taper from 5kH to 20kH such that there is roughly a 4-5dB difference. That gives you lots of sparkle and detail.

PM me and I can send you my curve file, if you are interested. I demoed my tune at a meet recently and I had a hard time getting people out of my car Your setup has potential to sound very good, the key is in the install, treatment and good tuning.

Last edited by Ziggyrama; 10-27-2017 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 10-28-2017, 01:41 AM   #28
Lansonfloyd
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I'm fourthmeal over on diyma, don't worry I know the thread. All you have to say is measure around Bruce Willis' head.

I've tweaked that process a bit based on experience but I started with that measurement style.

The car was off during these as I mentioned.

Have faith in me, brother. I can make mids firing against the windshield sound good. This same mid and tweet set has been used in my Colorado, and Mazda 6. They both have mids in the dash and tweets in the same basic spots, and while it takes a bit of eq power to take it, the depth of stage is just fantastic.

This is a full active setup, which will use 9 out of 10 available channels.

Edit. Oh and re the low volume, any higher and I got excessive distortion from panels resonating. Sine sweeps found the loudest I could go before those exceeded 1% of the response measured. Once I have the car deadened I'll tune for a much louder standard volume. Good eye though.

Nice to see a fellow diyma'er on my thread, thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
Looks like an interesting build. Few suggestions:

- measure with the car off. Engine running in our cars adds bloat in lower frequencies.

- there is a good technique for averaging your measurements, L and R side. For each side, you should take 8 measurements. For left, take 5 near your left ear, 3 near your right ear and average out. For right side, take 6 near your right ear, 2 near your left ear and average out again. Why? It is related to psychoacoustics, the fact that you're not sitting in the cetner and how your brain perceives the sounds. This writeup explains the technique in great detail:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ur-system.html

- IMO, aiming the mids at the windshield will not yield good results. Before you make a decision, prop them up in the corner or attach temporarily to your pillar and try different positions. I suspect you will hear best results with them being mounted at the bottom of the A pillar, either aimed directly at each other or slight angled in towards the interior. Since you're planning to fabricate pillars anyway, might as well get the best position for the mids too.

- given you're building SQ system, give up on the stock HU. It's not going to give you a clean signal and I believe it does change frequency response with respect to volume which will be a tuning nightmare. Consider going with a HU with at least 4V preouts to give yourself good signal going into the DSP. If you can do optical to DSP directly, that would be dope but finding a good HU that can do that is a crap shoot.

- you didn't mention if this is an active or passive setup. What are you planning to do? If you're going active, you should measure each driver separately and make sure the slopes match your curve with the xovers set. If you get your TA right, they will sum properly.

- you're measuring at relatively low volume levels. I suspect you're not listening at 80dB to your musing Try raising the volume up to a level near the one that you typically listen to. I think low to mid 90s is a good target level for measurements.

- looking at your target curve, and this is just an observation and it is highly subjective but it is typically a good idea to cut 2-3dB between 2-4kHz to remove harshness. Also, your top end drops off very rapidly which means you will lose a lot of subtle detail and air in your sound. I typically taper from 5kH to 20kH such that there is roughly a 4-5dB difference. That gives you lots of sparkle and detail.

PM me and I can send you my curve file, if you are interested. I demoed my tune at a meet recently and I had a hard time getting people out of my car Your setup has potential to sound very good, the key is in the install, treatment and good tuning.

Last edited by Lansonfloyd; 10-28-2017 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:57 AM   #29
Ziggyrama
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Member#: 53665
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
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2011 STI Stg2 w/EBCS
Focal 2way Active w/ DSP

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lansonfloyd View Post
I'm fourthmeal over on diyma, don't worry I know the thread. All you have to say is measure around Bruce Willis' head.

I've tweaked that process a bit based on experience but I started with that measurement style.

The car was off during these as I mentioned.

Have faith in me, brother. I can make mids firing against the windshield sound good. This same mid and tweet set has been used in my Colorado, and Mazda 6. They both have mids in the dash and tweets in the same basic spots, and while it takes a bit of eq power to take it, the depth of stage is just fantastic.

This is a full active setup, which will use 9 out of 10 available channels.

Edit. Oh and re the low volume, any higher and I got excessive distortion from panels resonating. Sine sweeps found the loudest I could go before those exceeded 1% of the response measured. Once I have the car deadened I'll tune for a much louder standard volume. Good eye though.

Nice to see a fellow diyma'er on my thread, thank you!
Cool. Sounds like you are on top of it. What slopes are you using for your crossovers and which frequencies? Also, curious why you are not measuring each driver individually?
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:18 AM   #30
phd12v
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* This RTA data was exported from TrueRTA
*
*
*
Frequency dB
12.599 *10.657
15.874 *10.241
20 *9.807
25.198 *8.91
31.748 *8.931
40 *8.598
50.397 *7.753
63.496 *6.31
80 *4.323
100.794 *2.629
126.992 *1.136
160 *0.382
201.587 *0.124
253.984 *-0.108
320 *-0.545
403.175 *-0.033
507.968 *-0.215
640 *-0.66
806.349 *-0.407
1015.937 *-0.431
1280 *-0.697
1612.699 *-0.652
2031.873 *-0.471
2560 *-1.089
3225.398 *-1.073
4063.747 *-1.244
5120 *-1.596
6450.796 *-1.942
8127.493 *-2.587
10240 *-3.874
12901.592 *-5.066
16254.987 *-6.169
20480 *-6.316


this is my baseline curve for my car, then i adjust to my liking. From Andy W at Audiofrog. I try to get it as close as possible.

Last edited by phd12v; 10-28-2017 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:52 AM   #31
Ziggyrama
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Focal 2way Active w/ DSP

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phd12v View Post
* This RTA data was exported from TrueRTA
*
*
*
Frequency dB
12.59910.657
15.87410.241
209.807
25.1988.91
31.7488.931
408.598
50.3977.753
63.4966.31
804.323
100.7942.629
126.9921.136
1600.382
201.5870.124
253.984-0.108
320-0.545
403.175-0.033
507.968-0.215
640-0.66
806.349-0.407
1015.937-0.431
1280-0.697
1612.699-0.652
2031.873-0.471
2560-1.089
3225.398-1.073
4063.747-1.244
5120-1.596
6450.796-1.942
8127.493-2.587
10240-3.874
12901.592-5.066
16254.987-6.169
20480-6.316


this is my baseline curve for my car, then i adjust to my liking. From Andy W at Audiofrog. I try to get it as close as possible.
^^^ first few numbers look odd. How do we interpret that? Also, I assume the other ones with -something is offset from 0?
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:30 PM   #32
phd12v
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yeah it doesnt copy over well at all....ill add a star between the values

its just a base line to start with... then i make my settings adjustments for driving and for vehicle off..... i have three presets to work with

i always do car running measurements...cause lets face it, i dont sit and listen with the car off all that much.... just my 2 cents

Last edited by phd12v; 10-28-2017 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 10-29-2017, 01:20 AM   #33
Lansonfloyd
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So I'm in the middle of the build, but after pulling the deck (thanks for the vid phd12v, super helpful), I noticed the model number is Clarion PF-3692. This apparently is the same head unit as prior years, so it will probably have the same issues you've found in the past.

Therefore, I'm going to press forward with head unit replacement. I want to get a clear handle on all the parts I need to buy to make the steering wheel controls and rearview camera work. Also if I need an antenna adapter, etc, let's go over those parts.

So far I've picked out he Scosche SU2031B for the dash kit or BestKits BKSBK929GB (edit, or the American International SBK929GB, notably WAY cheaper for some reason)

Axxess ASWC-1 steering wheel adapter (edit: or after reading more, go with the Maestro SW)

I assume this is what is used to retain the camera and also connect to the factory wiring
AX-SUB28SWC-6V , or go w/ AutoHarnessHouse and get the Metra 12/6 step down converter

I assume this will work to retain the stock USB port
AX-SUBUSB2

Any other pieces? I'm hoping to order by tomorrow and I'll rush-ship them in so I don't have my car down for too long.

edit: guess I also need 70-1761 harness

Last edited by Lansonfloyd; 10-29-2017 at 03:32 AM. Reason: edit for other option
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Old 10-29-2017, 01:50 AM   #34
Lansonfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
Cool. Sounds like you are on top of it. What slopes are you using for your crossovers and which frequencies? Also, curious why you are not measuring each driver individually?
Crossover slopes to be determined, but usually with the Helix, I like going 24dB/oct, Bessel. In past iterations of using these speakers (the Audible Physics AR3-A and AR20), I ran the tweeters between 5200 and 6k, and the mids as low as reasonable which is usually 350hz. They can go lower but usually this sounds pretty good.

I will measure the speakers individually when they are installed, but I see no point in doing that with stock stuff, know what I mean?
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Old 10-29-2017, 03:39 AM   #35
Lansonfloyd
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digging around looking for the best way to go, I ran across this

http://www.12voltnews.com/2016/10/02...wrx-crosstrek/
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:49 PM   #36
phd12v
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lansonfloyd View Post
digging around looking for the best way to go, I ran across this


American International SBK929GB i just bought two of them for no other reason then someone screwed up that pricing somewhere..... amazon is 11 dollars......... friggin crazy and the AI kit is the nice one ( basically the scosche one anyway)
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:42 PM   #37
Lansonfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phd12v View Post
American International SBK929GB i just bought two of them for no other reason then someone screwed up that pricing somewhere..... amazon is 11 dollars......... friggin crazy and the AI kit is the nice one ( basically the scosche one anyway)
Its phenomenally good, I could not agree more, someone is giving them away. That's the one I got, same deal less than $11 prime, AND it arrived in 1 day!
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