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Old 11-23-2022, 11:41 AM   #8326
Snow Drift
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I know it's a zf in there, which is great. I get to drive a lot of really high end cars that have zf's of equivalently great auto trans, and I can't say I miss shifting in a Urus , but it has to be a really exciting cr to override the desire for a manual.

I'd consider a Giulia, g70, 330/m340, macan, maybe a ct4-v, if I was going to break and get an auto.

The list of manual cars is very short:

WRX, elantra N, golf r, gr corolla, civic type r, used 2.0 g70 and focus RS.
Get a manual. The ZF8, while better than the rest, sucks compared to manual.
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Old 11-23-2022, 12:38 PM   #8327
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I know it's a zf in there, which is great. I get to drive a lot of really high end cars that have zf's of equivalently great auto trans, and I can't say I miss shifting in a Urus , but it has to be a really exciting cr to override the desire for a manual.

I'd consider a Giulia, g70, 330/m340, macan, maybe a ct4-v, if I was going to break and get an auto.

The list of manual cars is very short:

WRX, elantra N, golf r, gr corolla, civic type r, used 2.0 g70 and focus RS.
CT4V-Blackwing has a manual, but then you are spending "60k" (which will will balloon to ~70k real easy) for a GM product that isn't a Corvette.

As someone who moved from a manual to an auto in my daily ~three years ago, I still miss a manual & still dislike autos, I won't buy another auto for a daily if I can avoid it (EV doesn't give you a chance for example).
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Old 11-23-2022, 12:47 PM   #8328
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CT4V-Blackwing has a manual, but then you are spending "60k" (which will will balloon to ~70k real easy) for a GM product that isn't a Corvette.

As someone who moved from a manual to an auto in my daily ~three years ago, I still miss a manual & still dislike autos, I won't buy another auto for a daily if I can avoid it (EV doesn't give you a chance for example).
All I will say is that EV w/ One Pedal Driving is enjoyable, while an auto is mostly lame. It's somewhere between manual and auto, in terms of control and driver involvement. I will always prefer manual, but OPD is a nice compromise.
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Old 11-23-2022, 01:37 PM   #8329
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Without going back and reading everyone's posts, are the same people who's butt hurts for lack of memory seats the same ones who complain that the WRX has lost it's edge?

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if I'm forced into power seats, I expect memory settings. the weight has already been added with the motors and wires and all that crap, what's another button?
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Old 11-23-2022, 01:40 PM   #8330
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CT4V-Blackwing has a manual, but then you are spending "60k" (which will will balloon to ~70k real easy) for a GM product that isn't a Corvette.

As someone who moved from a manual to an auto in my daily ~three years ago, I still miss a manual & still dislike autos, I won't buy another auto for a daily if I can avoid it (EV doesn't give you a chance for example).
Well that's grail stuff right there for me. The blackwing or a manual m3. But there's 0 chance I'm buying a $65k car anytime soon. $30-40k could happen.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:00 PM   #8331
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All I will say is that EV w/ One Pedal Driving is enjoyable, while an auto is mostly lame. It's somewhere between manual and auto, in terms of control and driver involvement. I will always prefer manual, but OPD is a nice compromise.
pretty sure I've said this before, but I don't like OPD except for stop and go traffic. Once up and moving, I much prefer to drive like a normal car. I'll bounce back and forth between D, B, and N depending on the situation. A lot more engaging than one pedal, imo.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:10 PM   #8332
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pretty sure I've said this before, but I don't like OPD except for stop and go traffic. Once up and moving, I much prefer to drive like a normal car. I'll bounce back and forth between D, B, and N depending on the situation. A lot more engaging than one pedal, imo.
We've had this conversation.

No need to bounce between D, B and N (when do you go to Neutral, that is not safe when driving), as your foot can press down (D), ease pressure (B), and stay at a central point or completely off (N/Stopped).
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:13 PM   #8333
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All I will say is that EV w/ One Pedal Driving is enjoyable, while an auto is mostly lame. It's somewhere between manual and auto, in terms of control and driver involvement. I will always prefer manual, but OPD is a nice compromise.
One pedal driving sucks for spirited driving. Way worse than automatic as it gets in the way when trying to corner at speed. It's strictly stop and go useful.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:16 PM   #8334
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One pedal driving sucks for spirited driving. Way worse than automatic as it gets in the way when trying to corner at speed. It's strictly stop and go useful.
That makes zero sense. I can slow and go without ever leaving the accelerator pedal. You need to come off throttle, move over, brake, then go back on. Good luck on a downhill winding road. I have full control w/o any delay and no need to ride the brakes.

What gets in the way? It's seamless and smooth.

EDIT: If I make it before you reply...the only way I can see OPD interfering with your scenario would be in a high speed/heavy braking situation, like on track, where you want to really use the friction brakes. In that sense, coming completely off the throttle will induce regen and possibly throw off your intended actions. This was something that Tesla/Probst worked on for his Pikes Peak climbs, and Formula E has a way for the regen and friction braking force to balance each other, and not be 100% engaged.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 11-23-2022 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:32 PM   #8335
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I am assuming based on the what you wrote, that you test drove a '22 WRX SPT (CVT)?

Question: Did you drive it in [S ] "Sport," [S#] "Sport Sharp," or another mode?

Default at start up in [S ] "Sport."

While in the manual it only controls throttle mapping, I believe for the SPT it does more regarding the transmission and suspension. If that is true, similar to my Giulia, any mode lower than the highest, results in sluggish/early shifts. Perhaps that is why it felt so dinky on the low-end. Manual, pg. 313.
It had the auto. Inside still had plastic everywhere including the huge screen where all the settings appear to be, and I had no interest figuring it out while driving. So I knew I was missing its best.

That exhaust's booming drone had ruined it already.

I am certain that if I hadn't been jaded by previous Subaru turbos the one I drove would have been a joy to modify. It comes with all I ever wished for in a car.

The fact that I'm very happy with my Crosstrek combined with a list price of $44K plus known necessary mods just made no sense to me. I got a better quote than expected, including getting a trade-in value the same as I paid for it***8230; but not as much a break on MSRP and at a far higher interest rate than other years, when we got the lowest possible, like the present car's 0.9%. The one before was o%.

Times have changed. Glad I'm set until something tickles all the ribs. One left to check out, the LXT. I can wait.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:44 PM   #8336
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It had the auto. Inside still had plastic everywhere including the huge screen where all the settings appear to be, and I had no interest figuring it out while driving. So I knew I was missing its best.

That exhaust's booming drone had ruined it already.

I am certain that if I hadn't been jaded by previous Subaru turbos the one I drove would have been a joy to modify. It comes with all I ever wished for in a car.

The fact that I'm very happy with my Crosstrek combined with a list price of $44K plus known necessary mods just made no sense to me. I got a better quote than expected, including getting a trade-in value the same as I paid for it***8230; but not as much a break on MSRP and at a far higher interest rate than other years, when we got the lowest possible, like the present car's 0.9%. The one before was o%.

Times have changed. Glad I'm set until something tickles all the ribs. One left to check out, the LXT. I can wait.
Mode is controlled via the steering wheel "mode" button and is indicated on the TFT cockpit screen.

Again, I don't know if that was the problem. But I know for my automatic car, if she's not in Dynamic, the car shifts 1-4 before I would be out of 2nd and the throttle mapping is muted so it feels lethargic/lots of pedal travel.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:44 PM   #8337
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We've had this conversation.

No need to bounce between D, B and N (when do you go to Neutral, that is not safe when driving), as your foot can press down (D), ease pressure (B), and stay at a central point or completely off (N/Stopped).
I'm glad you enjoy opd, I really am. But your argument is an oxymoron. The whole point of opd is so that you can do less work to control the vehicle. Instead of being able to control throttle and braking separately, you've now combined them. Instead of having a true understanding of how much regeneration you're getting, you have zero clue because it's all done via a computer that your pedal is connected to. It's like saying an automatic is more engaging than a manual because you have to do less work.

I go into neutral in a few unique situations near my house. Every day I drive this big dip - road drops like 300 feet and then goes right back up - it's a road that basically goes across an old historic river bed, instead of building a bridge the road goes down and up. Could I use regen going down the hill? Sure, but regen is less efficient than just going straight neutral. Going into neutral is plenty safe as long as it's done intentionally with full awareness of one's surroundings.
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Old 11-23-2022, 02:55 PM   #8338
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I'm glad you enjoy opd, I really am. But your argument is an oxymoron. The whole point of opd is so that you can do less work to control the vehicle. Instead of being able to control throttle and braking separately, you've now combined them. Instead of having a true understanding of how much regeneration you're getting, you have zero clue because it's all done via a computer that your pedal is connected to. It's like saying an automatic is more engaging than a manual because you have to do less work.

I go into neutral in a few unique situations near my house. Every day I drive this big dip - road drops like 300 feet and then goes right back up - it's a road that basically goes across an old historic river bed, instead of building a bridge the road goes down and up. Could I use regen going down the hill? Sure, but regen is less efficient than just going straight neutral. Going into neutral is plenty safe as long as it's done intentionally with full awareness of one's surroundings.
Not sure how I am doing more work.

I know how much regen I am getting bc the amount of braking force is related to pedal position. Ease a little, slow a little, ease off a lot, slow a lot, lift off and you're into your dash. It's very natural and easy to operate. It's about as obvious as a brake pedal, push a little, push a lot, or stand on it...the expected result happens.

Neutral while driving is not safe, nor promoted. If something happened while you did that, and you couldn't react quick enough to shift back to drive, or if you pushed the lever the wrong way, you would have no way to drive the car, other than steering with momentum.
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Old 11-23-2022, 03:09 PM   #8339
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Not sure how I am doing more work.

I know how much regen I am getting bc the amount of braking force is related to pedal position. Ease a little, slow a little, ease off a lot, slow a lot, lift off and you're into your dash. It's very natural and easy to operate. It's about as obvious as a brake pedal, push a little, push a lot, or stand on it...the expected result happens.

Neutral while driving is not safe, nor promoted. If something happened while you did that, and you couldn't react quick enough to shift back to drive, or if you pushed the lever the wrong way, you would have no way to drive the car, other than steering with momentum.
The other thing to consider here, you're driving a Tesla, pretty much the only EV that doesn't use blended braking.

OPD is also pretty tiring for long drives. Being able to take your foot off the pedal is nice. That's why it's great in stop and go traffic - no need to keep a foot on the brake pedal. But when I'm going down hills while cruising around the burbs, I like to let my foot off the pedal. I control deceleration and regeneration by popping back and forth between D and B.

Please do not try to scold me on my driving. I don't know how old you are, nor do you know how old I am, you have never driven with me and have zero clue about my safety. I have had zero accidents in my entire time of driving. Please, stay in your own lane. Going into neutral is fine. You going to tell me that when you drive a stick shift you're never in neutral.

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Old 11-23-2022, 03:20 PM   #8340
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The other thing to consider here, you're driving a Tesla, pretty much the only EV that doesn't use blended braking. The only way for you to get regen is via OPD.

Please do not try to scold me on my driving. I don't know how old you are, nor do you know how old I am, you have never driven with me and have zero clue about my safety. I have had zero accidents in my entire time of driving. Please, stay in your own lane. Going into neutral is fine. You going to tell me that when you drive a stick shift you're never in neutral. f off with that ****.
Iím 38.

Glad youíve safely been able to do it, but you shouldnít actively drive a car in neutral (letís not include the milliseconds while shifting or slowly approaching a stop). God forbid something went wrong. Youíd have no way to drive the car if something bad happened. People miss shift when paying attention, let alone as a deer runs out in front of them, ice or anything else.

Adding to the topic of comfort. Thatís personal and subjective. I feel very at ease and comfortable with Tesla OPD. Even in terrible NY traffic. Going throttle to brake and back in traffic can be annoying on your ankle.
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Old 11-23-2022, 04:14 PM   #8341
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Damn, you old.

It's interesting where different experiences lead each person and how they inform their conclusions. It's why I enjoy talking to others and entertaining their perspectives.

I wish I had an accident-free driving record. Unless we're not including when others are at fault? In that case I, too, have had no at-fault accidents that involved others in all my 38 years of existence.
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Old 11-23-2022, 04:29 PM   #8342
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Damn, you old.

It's interesting where different experiences lead each person and how they inform their conclusions. It's why I enjoy talking to others and entertaining their perspectives.

I wish I had an accident-free driving record. Unless we're not including when others are at fault? In that case I, too, have had no at-fault accidents that involved others in all my 38 years of existence.
Agreed.

As always, forgive me for diverting the conversation. Here are some pics from STI of their WRX S4 with Performance parts. I'll always love these rims from the S206(?).



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Old 11-23-2022, 04:38 PM   #8343
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That makes zero sense. I can slow and go without ever leaving the accelerator pedal. You need to come off throttle, move over, brake, then go back on. Good luck on a downhill winding road. I have full control w/o any delay and no need to ride the brakes.

What gets in the way? It's seamless and smooth.

EDIT: If I make it before you reply...the only way I can see OPD interfering with your scenario would be in a high speed/heavy braking situation, like on track, where you want to really use the friction brakes. In that sense, coming completely off the throttle will induce regen and possibly throw off your intended actions. This was something that Tesla/Probst worked on for his Pikes Peak climbs, and Formula E has a way for the regen and friction braking force to balance each other, and not be 100% engaged.
I did mention spirited driving which normally implies higher speeds. Not sure what you are driving but it's not seamless and smooth on my Model 3 Performance. Deceleration is quite abrupt when driving at speed once you lift off the throttle and regen kicks in. If you take your foot off the gas even a little too early you have scrubbed off much more speed than desired entering a corner compared to traditional trail braking where you can more accurately modulate the brakes. Now if I drove my car daily at a track I could through repetition get to a happy spot where I could time the regen perfectly but on a track or winding roads I'm not familiar with I could carry speed more easily in a traditional setup without regen.
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Old 11-23-2022, 04:44 PM   #8344
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I did mention spirited driving which normally implies higher speeds. Not sure what you are driving but it's not seamless and smooth on my Model 3 Performance. Deceleration is quite abrupt when driving at speed once you lift off the throttle and regen kicks in. If you take your foot off the gas even a little too early you have scrubbed off much more speed than desired entering a corner compared to traditional trail braking where you can more accurately modulate the brakes. Now if I drove my car daily at a track I could through repetition get to a happy spot where I could time the regen perfectly but on a track or winding roads I'm not familiar with I could carry speed more easily in a traditional setup without regen.
Lift is the operative word. If you don't lift, and instead release pressure, then it is smooth. I agree, that is probably not always easy to do on track.

I've had a 2018 Model 3 LR AWD and 2020 Model Y LR AWD (just bought my second, as lease ended).
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Old 11-23-2022, 05:04 PM   #8345
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Agreed.

As always, forgive me for diverting the conversation. Here are some pics from STI of their WRX S4 with Performance parts. I'll always love these rims from the S206(?).
Yup, outstanding wheels. That does look better. It will be interesting to see the MMC. Remove cladding, add 600 rpmís, and offer front and rear Torsens as a PP, and Iíd be interested even though itís a fíin sedan.
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Old 11-23-2022, 05:44 PM   #8346
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You'd have no way to drive the car if something bad happened.
We're the same age... cool.

No way to drive the car? Does steering magically stop working? Do the brakes stop? Does the shifter stop? This is akin to the discussion that's come up to justify Subaru being the only brand not to include emergency braking on their manuals. it might stall and then you couldn't get out of the way of an incoming car after it just saved you from smashing into something. Gotta make sure we have access to that throttle! Let's just hope the first crash didn't kill you.
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Old 11-23-2022, 06:08 PM   #8347
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Was there ever a reason why they never included sequential transmissions for regular cars? Price? I guess a few super cars have them, ive driven an old Brat with one in it. It was a neat twist compared to the car I had at the time.
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Old 11-23-2022, 07:27 PM   #8348
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We're the same age... cool.

No way to drive the car? Does steering magically stop working? Do the brakes stop? Does the shifter stop? This is akin to the discussion that's come up to justify Subaru being the only brand not to include emergency braking on their manuals. it might stall and then you couldn't get out of the way of an incoming car after it just saved you from smashing into something. Gotta make sure we have access to that throttle! Let's just hope the first crash didn't kill you.
Iíd prefer to have drive, especially if it was a loss of traction and the rear got light. Thinking to shift in that type of moment might not happen quick enough. Sure you can steer and brake, but I also want to accelerate if necessary.

Yea, I remember those debates. Iím not saying I wouldnít want a Golf R bc it has that, but I donít blame Subaru for leaving it off the manual.
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Old 11-23-2022, 09:14 PM   #8349
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Iíd prefer to have drive, especially if it was a loss of traction and the rear got light. Thinking to shift in that type of moment might not happen quick enough. Sure you can steer and brake, but I also want to accelerate if necessary.

Yea, I remember those debates. Iím not saying I wouldnít want a Golf R bc it has that, but I donít blame Subaru for leaving it off the manual.
I'm not saying I run around in neutral at all times. It's a handful of unique situations where it makes sense. Usually big dips in the road that are unpopulated and always just one lane each direction. Don't really use it if there are others on the road because they're always on the brakes down the hill anyway. I did it in my wrx and my R as well.

But I do often jump between D and B. And since I have blended breaking, I can still manually introduce more Regen breaking. I dunno... For me it works. I feel way more in control since I have different modes that I personally engage. Opd feels like the automatic mode. I was in it for like 75% of my drive home today, but popped back to D once I got out of the stop and go.
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Old 11-24-2022, 10:15 AM   #8350
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I'm not saying I run around in neutral at all times. It's a handful of unique situations where it makes sense. Usually big dips in the road that are unpopulated and always just one lane each direction. Don't really use it if there are others on the road because they're always on the brakes down the hill anyway. I did it in my wrx and my R as well.

But I do often jump between D and B. And since I have blended breaking, I can still manually introduce more Regen breaking. I dunno... For me it works. I feel way more in control since I have different modes that I personally engage. Opd feels like the automatic mode. I was in it for like 75% of my drive home today, but popped back to D once I got out of the stop and go.
Different strokes. I used D and B with our Crosstrek PHEV since its auto coasting was annoying on hills and in snow. Would have loved it with OPD.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
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