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Old 10-26-2018, 02:36 AM   #1
bdrook88
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Default MAPerformance Stage 2 on 2018 STI Question

So I started off doing my little stage 2 build with the intentions of running the Cobb stage 2 OTS. But since then, I've started to read into the MAPerformance stage 2 OTS tune an am impressed by the reviews and numbers.

I just got my Cobb DP and Accessport V3 delivered (ordered from MAP) and noticed in their YouTube video that they are only making the tune for MAP DP and MAP intake (I'm still running stock intake). I have no problems ordering their intake, but do I really need to exchange my Cobb catted DP for their catted DP?

I'd get it professionally tuned but I can't find any AWD tuners in the area.

Not sure if anyone has ran into this issue before but would be happy for any input.

Running Borla exhaust if that matters.
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Old 10-26-2018, 12:14 PM   #2
JMJGH8
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I just visited MAP a couple weeks ago, and everyone was super helpful and friendly. If I were you I would call them and ask these questions, as they are the most knowledgeable about their tune.
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Old 10-26-2018, 12:29 PM   #3
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I'm running a Cobb catted/resonated J pipe and their intake on the MAP stage 2 tune. They said it's fine but I'm not sure if the standards are different for the STI. I kinda doubt it as long as it's a high flow cat.
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Old 10-26-2018, 12:41 PM   #4
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Edited For Accuracy

Last edited by maperformance; 02-20-2019 at 01:48 PM. Reason: EDITED FOR ACCURACY
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Old 10-28-2018, 06:58 PM   #5
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I'm about to install Cobb intake,box and Invidia catted downpipe on my 19 sti. At what point do i need to upgrade pump, injectors and fuel regulator? Cobb states the sti fuel system is able to supply enough fuel to run both an intake and downpipe?
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james-30 View Post
I'm about to install Cobb intake,box and Invidia catted downpipe on my 19 sti. At what point do i need to upgrade pump, injectors and fuel regulator? Cobb states the sti fuel system is able to supply enough fuel to run both an intake and downpipe?
As soon as funds allow. It is very easy to run out of pump and injectors on these cars. Unless your car has the typical STI stumble(not familiar with the VA fuel system) then I'd recommend doing the FPR right away.

The OEM fuel system can support an intake and exhaust but I prefer to have headroom in the fuel system.
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Old 10-29-2018, 02:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james-30 View Post
I'm about to install Cobb intake,box and Invidia catted downpipe on my 19 sti. At what point do i need to upgrade pump, injectors and fuel regulator? Cobb states the sti fuel system is able to supply enough fuel to run both an intake and downpipe?
I don't think the fuel system changed from 2018 to 2019 and for the 2018 MY STI cobb does not have a map that supports both a CAI and DP due to the fuel system not being able to meet the increased flow requirements.
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Old 02-16-2019, 01:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maperformance View Post
Not at all. Our Stage 2 tune will work fine with any catted downpipe. If it was catless, you would need our MAP one. But in your case, just grab our MAP intake, and I will throw in our Stage 2 tune for you. Let me know if you have any other questions at all!

-Ian
Intake for 18 STI? Website shows only through 17.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:32 PM   #9
OhThatHurt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maperformance View Post
Not at all. Our Stage 2 tune will work fine with any catted downpipe. If it was catless, you would need our MAP one. But in your case, just grab our MAP intake, and I will throw in our Stage 2 tune for you. Let me know if you have any other questions at all!

-Ian
PM Sent.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:08 PM   #10
OhThatHurt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maperformance View Post
Not at all. Our Stage 2 tune will work fine with any catted downpipe. If it was catless, you would need our MAP one. But in your case, just grab our MAP intake, and I will throw in our Stage 2 tune for you. Let me know if you have any other questions at all!

-Ian
I am confused. I sent a PM to MAPerformance about getting an intake and Stage 2 tune for my '16 STI that has a Cobb catted DP. They said the intake is not is not compatible with the the Cobb DP, only their MAPerformance DP is supported. Can someone please clarify?
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:59 AM   #11
Turpid Porpoise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhThatHurt View Post
I am confused. I sent a PM to MAPerformance about getting an intake and Stage 2 tune for my '16 STI that has a Cobb catted DP. They said the intake is not is not compatible with the the Cobb DP, only their MAPerformance DP is supported. Can someone please clarify?
Are you sure you didn't misread their reply? The DP's are all essentially the same and have close to zero affect on the tune brand to brand. The intake, on the other hand, houses the MAF sensor and each different design requires it's own specific tune.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:30 PM   #12
OhThatHurt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turpid Porpoise View Post
Are you sure you didn't misread their reply? The DP's are all essentially the same and have close to zero affect on the tune brand to brand. The intake, on the other hand, houses the MAF sensor and each different design requires it's own specific tune.
That is my thought, too. I understand the intake requires the correct tune for proper MAF scaling. However I am receiving conflicting information about DP support. I not not want to install something that will damage my motor.

Here is the reply from MAPerformnce when I inquired about the offer above.

"I would love to extend the above offer to you however we only offer a stage 2 tune to a car that has all of our hardparts on it. Just because flow is different downpipe to downpipe and it could cause issues to run any hardparts but ours.

If you are willing to get rid of the cobb dp I can make you a package deal.

If this is enticing for you please email me and I can put an invoice together."

I would like MAPerformce to respond to clear up the confusion.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:47 PM   #13
maperformance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhThatHurt View Post
That is my thought, too. I understand the intake requires the correct tune for proper MAF scaling. However I am receiving conflicting information about DP support. I not not want to install something that will damage my motor.

Here is the reply from MAPerformnce when I inquired about the offer above.

"I would love to extend the above offer to you however we only offer a stage 2 tune to a car that has all of our hardparts on it. Just because flow is different downpipe to downpipe and it could cause issues to run any hardparts but ours.

If you are willing to get rid of the cobb dp I can make you a package deal.

If this is enticing for you please email me and I can put an invoice together."

I would like MAPerformce to respond to clear up the confusion.




Hello sir,

This is Leo @ MAP, although flow dp to dp may be similar. This is a OTS tune developed around our hard parts made in house we have not tested them back to back with Cobb's to verify it will work with our tune. This would be irresponsible for me to confirm something works with our tune if the tune was not developed and tested around said Cobb parts.

I cannot in good faith verify that you aren't going to have issues with any other configuration. The purpose of our tune is to make running our hard parts easier for our customers as well as making it more affordable.

I certainly hope this has clarified our stance and purpose of our OTS tunes that we offer.


Leo @ MAP
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:49 PM   #14
maperformance
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By the way support for our tunes and hard parts is now available for 18 and 19MY WRX's!
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:40 PM   #15
OhThatHurt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maperformance View Post
Hello sir,

This is Leo @ MAP, although flow dp to dp may be similar. This is a OTS tune developed around our hard parts made in house we have not tested them back to back with Cobb's to verify it will work with our tune. This would be irresponsible for me to confirm something works with our tune if the tune was not developed and tested around said Cobb parts.

I cannot in good faith verify that you aren't going to have issues with any other configuration. The purpose of our tune is to make running our hard parts easier for our customers as well as making it more affordable.

I certainly hope this has clarified our stance and purpose of our OTS tunes that we offer.


Leo @ MAP

Leo,
Thanks very much for the clarification. I truly appreciate it.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:10 PM   #16
maperformance
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Always happy to help, feel free to reach out anytime.


Leo @ MAP
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:57 AM   #17
STILA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maperformance View Post
Always happy to help, feel free to reach out anytime.


Leo @ MAP
This thread is a little old but my question is , if maperformance intake and dp can work togather with map tune, does that mean cobb intake and dp flow alot more air? You're telling me cobb can't duplicate what mapperformance did allowing stage 2+ on 15+ sti, or they just dont want to take any responsibility for any possibility of lean engines and running lean due to changes in environment
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:41 AM   #18
NighthawkSTI
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The MAP downpipe is a totally different design relative to the Cobb,,,The MAP pipe is divorced wastegate and the Cobb is an Open Bellmouth, the placement of the cat conv. on the pipes is different as well, on the map pipe its closer to the turbo whereas on the cobb its as far back on the pipe as possible. Those differences alone will influence how the boost responds and torque.

If you were comparing 2 similar downpipes like the cobb and turbo XS for example I'd say go for it, but the MAP pipe is a lot different than the cobb in the areas that affect how they are tuned. I'd use the MAP downpipe for the MAP tune...or the cobb for the cobb tune.

Last edited by NighthawkSTI; 02-13-2020 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:39 PM   #19
WRXnick16
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MAP tunes are typically a bit more aggressive and I assume run leaner (using less fuel = lower IDCs) and have a bit less safety margin built in (not to say they aren't safe). MAP may even run a lower boost level to keep IDCs down despite the increased airflow from the intake (complete speculation).

In comparison, Cobb has been designing OTS maps for a very long time and are known for their long-term reliability. Cobb is more conservative and their tunes are on the richer side for safety (using more fuel = higher IDCs). If they allowed for an intake, it would increase airflow using more fuel if maintaining the same AFR and result in higher IDCs, perhaps falling out of what they consider the safety zone. Cobb aims to keep IDCs at around 95-100%. Cobb tests in cool climates with high atmospheric pressure where the air density is high (demanding more fuel) to check their IDCs. At stage 2+, their IDCs were at 107% on their tune and they considered that unsafe.

Of course, then there's the debate on how Subaru's IDCs are calculated (based on IPW & RPM) and many tuners have gone well over 100% IDC. IDC is a calculated value (with a margin of error), not a raw counter produced by the ECU. Obviously going over 100% wouldn't be possible if the IDC values were accurate, real-time values. I've seen tuners go as high as 120% IDC, but of course those tunes run a higher risk of running lean. In that case, you need to pay close attention to the AFRs, especially in colder weather and at high load in higher gears. Most tuners prefer that you upgrade the fuel pump & injectors once you upgrade beyond a downpipe, otherwise they will likely have to limit the power in higher gears to maintain what they consider safe IDCs.

For example, here's a post from BrenTuning comparing stage 2+ setups with & without an upgraded fuel pump & injectors:



Quote:
Originally Posted by BrenTuning View Post
We can tune Stage2+SF setups safely with IDC at a safe level even on stock fueling. With stock fueling, the power just has to be scaled back a bit. While peak number differences aren't huge, the midrange gains are 15WHP/20WTQ throughout.

IDC on the Stage2+SF stock injector setup was right around 95% at the top of 4th gear. With the ID1000 injectors and DW65C pump, the IDC was around 60%. As for tuning differences go, you have to run a leaner mixture and taper the boost on the stock fueling car, with ID1000 you can run a bit more timing and boost.

[email protected]

Last edited by WRXnick16; 02-13-2020 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Added dyno
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:06 PM   #20
NighthawkSTI
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
MAP tunes are typically a bit more aggressive and I assume run leaner (using less fuel = lower IDCs) and have a bit less safety margin built in (not to say they aren't safe). MAP may even run a lower boost level to keep IDCs down despite the increased airflow from the intake (complete speculation).

In comparison, Cobb has been designing OTS maps for a very long time and are known for their long-term reliability. Cobb is more conservative and their tunes are on the richer side for safety (using more fuel = higher IDCs). If they allowed for an intake, it would increase airflow using more fuel if maintaining the same AFR and result in higher IDCs, perhaps falling out of what they consider the safety zone. Cobb aims to keep IDCs at around 95-100%. Cobb tests in cool climates with high atmospheric pressure where the air density is high (demanding more fuel) to check their IDCs. At stage 2+, their IDCs were at 107% on their tune and they considered that unsafe.

Of course, then there's the debate on how Subaru's IDCs are calculated (based on IPW & RPM) and many tuners have gone well over 100% IDC. IDC is a calculated value, not a raw counter produced by the ECU. Obviously going over 100% wouldn't be possible if the IDC values were accurate, real-time values. I've seen tuners go as high as 120% IDC, but of course those tunes run a higher risk of running lean. In that case, you need to pay close attention to the AFRs, especially in colder weather and at high load in higher gears.
EXCELLENT post! Those are good points. It would be interesting to find out what the OP did...it an old post though.
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