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Old 09-13-2019, 08:36 AM   #126
SeeeeeYa
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Originally Posted by WideBody View Post
I still don't get why the whole "it MUST run on regular gas" is a thing. Premium is a few dollars at most per fill up, or a few hundred dollars a year maybe. If you're buying a $40k+ vehicle, you can clearly afford $2 extra at the pump unless you're so financially illiterate that it will make or break your family from eating that month.

If you're buying a turbocharged engine, you should be expecting to pay for premium. I'm sure the ones that are being run on regular run like crap too, all while getting worse fuel economy. Subaru catering to the lowest common denominator people who will only put regular fuel in their cars are probably the reason why the stock tunes are so bad. They need to account for smooth brained neanderthals putting 87 in their WRX/STI thinking it's "good enough".
^^^ He gets it. Why is it so hard for most to understand basics??
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:36 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by WideBody View Post
I still don't get why the whole "it MUST run on regular gas" is a thing. Premium is a few dollars at most per fill up, or a few hundred dollars a year maybe. If you're buying a $40k+ vehicle, you can clearly afford $2 extra at the pump unless you're so financially illiterate that it will make or break your family from eating that month.

If you're buying a turbocharged engine, you should be expecting to pay for premium. I'm sure the ones that are being run on regular run like crap too, all while getting worse fuel economy. Subaru catering to the lowest common denominator people who will only put regular fuel in their cars are probably the reason why the stock tunes are so bad. They need to account for smooth brained neanderthals putting 87 in their WRX/STI thinking it's "good enough".
No, 87 octane is not the reason Subaru delivers sub-par tune from the factory. I drove a 2015 wrx when the came out and the tune was garbage, a car that requires 91 octane. I drove a 2018 wrx and the tune was still abysmal, again, a car that requires 91 octane.

My 2006 wrx? tune from the factory was garbage as well, a car that required 91 octane.

I have yet to drive a turbocharged Subaru that has a good tune from the factory on it.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:38 AM   #128
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I get that you have a gripe, how could I not. Youíve harped on it for years.

What I do not get is, how someone with a six year old car, THATíS STILL WORKING WELL, has a vendetta against its manufacturer.

And, you refuse to listen to ANY input that doesnít feed your obsession.

I thought COís mountains and grand vistas bred enlightenment and clear thoughts. My family there seems to feel that way. Iím going to look into it, maybe theyíve been painting the whole thing wrong all these years.

Have you read much about Ďcircular conversations?í Just asking.
You are the queen of circular conversations. You tell us daily about how youíve never had a single problem with any Subaru in 30 years. You tell us daily your Impreza is the best handling car youíve ever owned. You tell owners that itís their fault their stock vehicles have a tuneing problem, yet you say then, thereís no tuning problem. Despite well-known factual data being readily available, you ignore it and repeat the opposite ad nauseam. You are like the MSM. If you say it enough times maybe itíll be true and you can change people. CNN much? I bet so.
You are delusional, yet/and you project that delusion on others.
Your projected piety is transparent and is an embarrassment to the News and Rumors section of the forum. I have never put anybody on ignore, but your daily noise just might push me to do it. Nothing of value comes from your posts. Theyíre just noise.
You are a fanboy of the worst kind.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:43 AM   #129
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No, 87 octane is not the reason Subaru delivers sub-par tune from the factory. I drove a 2015 wrx when the came out and the tune was garbage, a car that requires 91 octane. I drove a 2018 wrx and the tune was still abysmal, again, a car that requires 91 octane.

My 2006 wrx? tune from the factory was garbage as well, a car that required 91 octane.

I have yet to drive a turbocharged Subaru that has a good tune from the factory on it.
Those cars all require 91 octane, for maximum performance and what the manual states as required. However, I'm just saying that Subaru probably makes the tune overly conservative in case a monkey puts 87 in his performance car.

It's also not just the owners of the cars, it's the salespeople too. When I got my 2015 WRX they gave it the "complementary full tank of gas" and I found the receipt showing they put 87 in it. I'm just making a guess that they make these tunes thinking that people are obnoxiously stupid and that they need to keep their turbo engines as safe as possible for when they put improper gasoline in them.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:47 AM   #130
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You are the queen of circular conversations. You tell us daily about how youíve never had a single problem with any Subaru in 30 years. You tell us daily your Impreza is the best handling car youíve ever owned. You tell owners that itís their fault their stock vehicles have a tuneing problem, yet you say then, thereís no tuning problem. Despite well-known factual data being readily available, you ignore it and repeat the opposite ad nauseam. You are like the MSM. If you say it enough times maybe itíll be true and you can change people. CNN much? I bet so.
You are delusional, yet/and you project that delusion on others.
Your projected piety is transparent and is an embarrassment to the News and Rumors section of the forum. I have never put anybody on ignore, but your daily noise just might push me to do it. Nothing of value comes from your posts. Theyíre just noise.
You are a fanboy of the worst kind.
^^ And you're hopelessly caught in your own web.

Try quoting what I say instead of paraphrasing everything to suit that web of personal deception.

As for blocking me? Please.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:28 AM   #131
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I still don't get why the whole "it MUST run on regular gas" is a thing. Premium is a few dollars at most per fill up, or a few hundred dollars a year maybe. If you're buying a $40k+ vehicle, you can clearly afford $2 extra at the pump unless you're so financially illiterate that it will make or break your family from eating that month.
It doesn't need to run well on regular, but it must not be dangerous. People make mistakes, or might have no other option. Far too likely to disregard. I would never sign off on an engine design for this type of application that had a significant chance of failing on the worst gas.

One thing seeeya is right about (or wait, was he arguing for or against this? Can't tell) is that any single normal* car that rolls off the lot has to handle the worst gas on its worst day without blowing up, to a certain level of probability. Se we get power deration, and some of the other weird engine behavior.

But man that stock tune on my car was malicious.

*As opposed to something exotic or very uncommon, or diesel powered.
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:13 AM   #132
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It doesn't need to run well on regular, but it must not be dangerous. People make mistakes, or might have no other option. Far too likely to disregard. I would never sign off on an engine design for this type of application that had a significant chance of failing on the worst gas.

One thing seeeya is right about (or wait, was he arguing for or against this? Can't tell) is that any single normal* car that rolls off the lot has to handle the worst gas on its worst day without blowing up, to a certain level of probability. Se we get power deration, and some of the other weird engine behavior.

But man that stock tune on my car was malicious.

*As opposed to something exotic or very uncommon, or diesel powered.
Correct.

But the same people then "put the blame" on the CVT if the car has one as all FXTs do as well as many WRXs. I had two after my '14 FXT. The '15's tune AND CVT programming were barely tolerable, even for a fanboy like me. That's why I traded it for a '16 as soon as I could... well, the official excuse was my wife wanting EyeSight. I found the ride on our roads to be insufferable despite how well it handled, and I could never get used to the CVT. It sucked, programming wise.

The '16 CVT WRX, however, was without any of the characteristics I didn't like about the '15 and I was very happy with it. I fixed the top end's lackluster with some simple exhaust mods, the ride was night and day better and the handling remained great.

My '17 FXT was all but perfect and I took care of the minor details that fixed those. I didn't think it could get any better.

But it did... in a way. This little NA engine with its CVT work in such seamless harmony I'm usually unaware of what the drivetrain's doing, it just does what I want from the pedal without fanfare of any kind, until floored and then there's the usual boxer sound getting louder. But silky driving performance. And I will repeat, OUT OF THE BOX, it's the best handling car I've owned. Sure I've modified most to meet what I wanted, and I have a couple things I'll do to this Imp.

The point here is this, Subaru has learnied how to build better cars at an accelerating rate since the FA came out, and took another quantum leap with the SGP. These are not comparable to most of the cars being griped about here and elsewhere. It's old Subaru vs new. And a very very welcome change, especially for one who's been living with them for so long.
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:16 AM   #133
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I'm sure it's not just for people that make mistakes.. meaning your wife drives your car and decides to fill up with 87

Gas stations, fuel trucks, etc. make mistakes too. It's not unheard of for there to be bad gas from the pump whether it be poor quality, water, or the wrong octane. There was an incident a while back where a station was accidentally dispensing diesel fuel out of their E85 pump..

It's probably easier for Subaru to run terrible on the worst gas than deal with warranty claims, proving the wrong fuel was used, fighting with fuel stations, etc.

They also have to make the car driveable on poor fuel for all driving scenarios in the US - city/highway, temperature (Alaska winter vs Arizona summer), altitude (sea level to 14k feet), humidity, etc.

Of course all manufacturers have to do this to some extent so it's not really an excuse...

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Old 09-13-2019, 11:27 AM   #134
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Of course all manufacturers have to do this to some level so it's not really an excuse...
Correct
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:34 AM   #135
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I saw on Facebook that a local tuner found Exxon premium was actually below the octane rating, I think it was measured at 89 for 93 gas. So, thatís another reason to allow for less than stellar fuel, due to crappy gas stations
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:46 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by WideBody View Post
I still don't get why the whole "it MUST run on regular gas" is a thing. Premium is a few dollars at most per fill up, or a few hundred dollars a year maybe. If you're buying a $40k+ vehicle, you can clearly afford $2 extra at the pump unless you're so financially illiterate that it will make or break your family from eating that month.

If you're buying a turbocharged engine, you should be expecting to pay for premium. I'm sure the ones that are being run on regular run like crap too, all while getting worse fuel economy. Subaru catering to the lowest common denominator people who will only put regular fuel in their cars are probably the reason why the stock tunes are so bad. They need to account for smooth brained neanderthals putting 87 in their WRX/STI thinking it's "good enough".

I need to move where you live. 93 here is anywhere from $0.80 to $1.20 more than 87. The Ascent has a 19.3 gallon fuel tank. That's a little more than a couple bucks a tank depending on where you can get your fuel. It never bothered me back in the day it was only $.20 more; but, when the prices started fluctuating ridiculously, it was one of the reasons that prompted me to get another car.
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:37 PM   #137
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[...]Quit with blaming Subaru for crap that's out of their control. Are they perfect? No, the FA20 LSPI proves that (along with a few other things I won't mention). But fer cripes sake stop lumping the ignorance inspired carnage in as if it's ALL Subaru's fault.
I don't disagree with the essence of you argument.
But, here's my take, FA20DIT, just like EJ257, is only running optimally on 93 AKI gas and it's fine by me.
Running optimally on 87 is not and was never expected; the engine just needs to pretty much "limp home" on 87 AKI without completely destroying itself; there's no argument there.
The problem comes from running "premium" gas this is less than 93 AKI gas; Cali's along with other states out west had 92 sold as "premium" then it became 91 as "premium". Some places like Alaska have 90 as premium.
Other places around the world only have 95 RON as premium, roughly equivalent to 91~92 AKI.
The point is, globally, not every market out there have 93 AKI "super premium" gas; Subaru, like others, is a global company, is it not?
When I walk into any dealership, regardless of brand/make, with my hard earned money, intent on buying a brand new vehicle, I fully expect said vehicle to run properly on whichever "premium" gas is available to me at the pump.
If the vehicle in question is unable to run properly on that "premium" gas, then I don't want it, and I even question why a manufacturer would even try to sale it in the first place.
So, maybe we in Cali and elsewhere are stupid for buying Subaru vehicles without paying attention to the fact that some of them won't run properly on any less than 93 AKI.
But maybe Subaru is a little bit deceptive in even offering these cars for sale without saying something like "hey, people, fair warning, these things *won't* run nicely on 91 and will run *significantly* better on 93".
I find the language in the owner's manual a little too much of an understatement; it should read something like "93 AKI gas REQUIRED, anything less won't do" .
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:02 PM   #138
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I need to move where you live. 93 here is anywhere from $0.80 to $1.20 more than 87. The Ascent has a 19.3 gallon fuel tank. That's a little more than a couple bucks a tank depending on where you can get your fuel. It never bothered me back in the day it was only $.20 more; but, when the prices started fluctuating ridiculously, it was one of the reasons that prompted me to get another car.
Getting a car for fuel mileage has never been on my list, but I'm enjoying both the lower fuel costs as well as the greater MPG that my Impreza brings.

I didn't always put power over everything. My favorite car of all time, the one I had the longest and put the most into had a NA 1900cc four, but it was quick for it's breed and handled so well it was banned from SCCA stock sedan competition after its first year when it dominated its class.

Oh, I put another 50 horses on top of its original 110, as well as modifying everything else about it. Very few cars could touch it in the twistys, or for that matter on the highway. I enjoyed toying with Firebirds etc on the top end runs. It took me home when I was drunk, and me, it, and winters in NE never had a problem. It became an extension of me. At 2200 lbs though, it'll never happen again, for many reasons.

There is muted resemblance of that car in my Impreza. It's a feeling behind the wheel. I won't lower it however, won't get wider stickier tires, lower it or touch the engine. Not the same world as it was back then, when I could average 90 mph on a trip from WV back home to MA. Not even close. They're not fun, anymore. But my Impreza gives me as much of it as about any car can, here anyway.

And I can use 87 with impunity. But 89 will be in the tank. It made a difference I like. That thinking has served me too well for too long in too many cars and bikes to change now.

Could also be why all my Subaru's motors worked great for me, too, eh?
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:20 PM   #139
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I don't disagree with the essence of you argument.
But, here's my take, FA20DIT, just like EJ257, is only running optimally on 93 AKI gas and it's fine by me.
Running optimally on 87 is not and was never expected; the engine just needs to pretty much "limp home" on 87 AKI without completely destroying itself; there's no argument there.
The problem comes from running "premium" gas this is less than 93 AKI gas; Cali's along with other states out west had 92 sold as "premium" then it became 91 as "premium". Some places like Alaska have 90 as premium.
Other places around the world only have 95 RON as premium, roughly equivalent to 91~92 AKI.
The point is, globally, not every market out there have 93 AKI "super premium" gas; Subaru, like others, is a global company, is it not?
When I walk into any dealership, regardless of brand/make, with my hard earned money, intent on buying a brand new vehicle, I fully expect said vehicle to run properly on whichever "premium" gas is available to me at the pump.
If the vehicle in question is unable to run properly on that "premium" gas, then I don't want it, and I even question why a manufacturer would even try to sale it in the first place.
So, maybe we in Cali and elsewhere are stupid for buying Subaru vehicles without paying attention to the fact that some of them won't run properly on any less than 93 AKI.
But maybe Subaru is a little bit deceptive in even offering these cars for sale without saying something like "hey, people, fair warning, these things *won't* run nicely on 91 and will run *significantly* better on 93".
I find the language in the owner's manual a little too much of an understatement; it should read something like "93 AKI gas REQUIRED, anything less won't do" .
I agree 100%.

I never did understand why people bought turbo Subarus in CA and similarly octane-handicapped places. Most had it tuned or where possible turned to E85 to make them work.

Meth, at least early on, was the answer to everything octane related and the path to safe horsepower you simply can't get without it. The lack of a WMI conversation in today's tuning/modding forums baffles me. I ran w/m in my '05 LGT for four years, with a homebrew system, and never felt it an encumbrance. It solved EVERYTHING, cost little, and eliminated issues related to pump gasoline.

It's also the answer to the elephant in direct injection's room... carbon buildup. Couple all that it does for an engine and it is boggling why people don't use it more... especially in CA etc.

...
..... OK, so what if I do rant sometimes. I have reasons.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:45 PM   #140
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^^ can you explain to me why an aftermarket CBE (not downpipe) would have an effect on the engine/turbo?>
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:12 PM   #141
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I agree 100%.

I never did understand why people bought turbo Subarus in CA and similarly octane-handicapped places. Most had it tuned or where possible turned to E85 to make them work.

Meth, at least early on, was the answer to everything octane related and the path to safe horsepower you simply can't get without it. The lack of a WMI conversation in today's tuning/modding forums baffles me. I ran w/m in my '05 LGT for four years, with a homebrew system, and never felt it an encumbrance. It solved EVERYTHING, cost little, and eliminated issues related to pump gasoline.

It's also the answer to the elephant in direct injection's room... carbon buildup. Couple all that it does for an engine and it is boggling why people don't use it more... especially in CA etc.

...
..... OK, so what if I do rant sometimes. I have reasons.
I think a lot of early days WMI systems out there didn't have enough failsafe and people just didn't make the effort of coming up with failsafe strategies on their own beyond the basic "water/meth tank running low" scenario (water/meth pump failure, water/meth injector failure, controller/metering failure,...).
I experimented with E85 blends for a short while before going back to a simple approach for 91 Cali; enrich the mixture enough to avoid overcooking the pistons and but not too much to create over-fueling issues.
So far, this has worked, I went through a very mild HG failure but the bottom end is still fine after 13 years and the heads never actually overheated.
Good enough for me at this point.
I think FA24DIT is very interesting because it's the first turbo engine besides FB16DIT for which Subaru says "hey, go ahead, it's actually rated for 87 AKI operation, it'll be fine".
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Old 09-13-2019, 04:31 PM   #142
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I thought about WMI for my FA20s too, but for the carbon deposits specifically. My hesitance to act on it was the tuning. I've done my own on all my EJs, but the FAs are a different animal, and I haven't seen the plethora of tuning solutions the EJ has for it.

Now that it's in my head again I'm wondering... about a spray on demand system. Relatively small volume, high pressure spray that could be used with a toggle switch, used under certain engine conditions, for a certain period, to clean the valves once in a while. A tune wouldn't necessarily be needed under those conditions in any engine. Like my Impreza's, for example.

I wonder if anyone has tried this already. To do it right would be a slow calculated process with some basic monitoring but it's easily feasible. Having tuned my own for meth I know how things act when the tune hasn't included it... just loss of some power, but nothing dangerous to the engine. Now TUNE the engine for meth and have it not be there... not good. I did it once on an autox course around a pole... uncovered the pickup in the tank. Suddenly wasn't as fast anymore, the DAM saved it. I made a different tank setup and never had a problem again.

So I'm not worried about it. Luckily I have time with under 1000 miles on it, but the DI issue is still in my mind and I'd rather do a simple WMI than have someone take my engine apart and clean the thing. I shudder at the thought. WMI does not make me shudder at all.

I'm sure I read somewhere about a new car with water injection in it from the factory. It's been done before, including long ago. It may be time again if DI is around as it is long enough for the used car buying public to decrease resale values. I know I wouldn't buy one used. A simple WMI system could be the cure, but it won't be for the masses. We've been talking about them. Sure would be nice as a factory option though. I'd have a retrofit in a heartbeat myself.

A WMI option for the STi would enable it to be what an STi should be, anywhere in the world... including CAl.
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:15 PM   #143
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Now that it's in my head again I'm wondering... about a spray on demand system. Relatively small volume, high pressure spray that could be used with a toggle switch, used under certain engine conditions, for a certain period, to clean the valves once in a while. A tune wouldn't necessarily be needed under those conditions in any engine. Like my Impreza's, for example.

I wonder if anyone has tried this already. To do it right would be a slow calculated process with some basic monitoring but it's easily feasible. Having tuned my own for meth I know how things act when the tune hasn't included it... just loss of some power, but nothing dangerous to the engine. Now TUNE the engine for meth and have it not be there... not good. I did it once on an autox course around a pole... uncovered the pickup in the tank. Suddenly wasn't as fast anymore, the DAM saved it. I made a different tank setup and never had a problem again.

....

A WMI option for the STi would enable it to be what an STi should be, anywhere in the world... including CAl.
I think that this idea could certainly work as long as it's a metered amount. I'm just not sure what the ideal engine conditions would be. You would obviously want to monitor the air/fuel ratio & knock.

Obviously it's a completely different engine, but I've owned a couple Rx-7's in the past and carbon build-up is a common problem with rotary engines. Many owners "steam cleaned" their engines by supplying a metered amount of distilled water via vacuum lines to each chamber. Some considered this routine maintenance. Subaru's carbon cleaner & upper engine cleaner work in a similar fashion.

https://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2...injection.html
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...thread-949720/

RE: the OEM WMI for the STI..
The S209 spraying water onto the outside of the intercooler doesn't count?
I get (hope) that they did it more for sentimental purposes than function. I do recall seeing an article about an OEM car with water injection, but I don't remember what it was.

Edit:
BMW uses a Bosch water-injection system on the M4 GTS. It is available to other automakers according to the article.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...es-horsepower/

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Old 09-13-2019, 05:23 PM   #144
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:24 PM   #145
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:50 PM   #146
Straight6
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If the FA20DIT is an indication, the next STI is going to be an absolute monster. I can't wait. Nothing else can match the AWD system already. FA motor will put it over the top.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:47 PM   #147
Brahmzy
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'14 FXT-T
'15 XTERRA PRO-4X

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight6 View Post
If the FA20DIT is an indication, the next STI is going to be an absolute monster. I can't wait. Nothing else can match the AWD system already. FA motor will put it over the top.
Thatís exactly what weíre hoping for
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