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Old 03-13-2023, 03:37 PM   #701
Snow Drift
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The starting price of a 2012 model S was $96,570. Basically 100K. Inflation corrected, that's $130K in todays money. And yet that's still the yardstick you want to use?
Battery efficiency and charge rate, don't require $130k today. Ford got it. GM thinks they do. VW figured out some of it. Porsche is on board. If Hyundai/Kia can figure out charging rate, plus the Ioniq 6 has 316 miles of range, then there is no excuse.

And Tesla offers it all at basically the same price. So, why protect Subaru/Toyota, when everyone else is making progress?
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Old 03-13-2023, 03:58 PM   #702
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As far as EV propulsion systems (batteries, motors, inverters etc.) Tesla is still 5-10 years ahead of the industry as a whole. Toyota & Subaru dragged their feet/deliberately did not invest in EV; they are 5 years behind the EV industry, 10-15 years behind Tesla. Toyota & Subaru still aren't going full bore into EV either; Toyota is a large ship piloted by an old captain, Subaru is a small ship caught in their wake.

Now as far as designing a car and putting one together, Tesla is 10-15 years behind the industry as a whole, if not for Nissan dragging down the average, it would be more.
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Old 03-13-2023, 06:17 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Battery efficiency and charge rate, don't require $130k today. Ford got it. GM thinks they do. VW figured out some of it. Porsche is on board. If Hyundai/Kia can figure out charging rate, plus the Ioniq 6 has 316 miles of range, then there is no excuse.

And Tesla offers it all at basically the same price. So, why protect Subaru/Toyota, when everyone else is making progress?
I'm not protecting them, I would never purchase the car they're offering nor would I recommend anyone else do so. I just think there's completely unrealistic expectations out there and they're detracting from otherwise constructive discussion on the car.
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Old 05-26-2023, 10:49 AM   #704
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Old 05-26-2023, 12:31 PM   #705
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What a strange test... run it down to 10% SOC charge for 15mins, charging while the AC is running, see how long it takes to get back to 10% SOC at 80mph.

Far too many variables to make this a useful dataset. I'm not defending the BZ4X/Solterra, I would not recommend them to anyone, but that is just a funky test with the current crop of EV's on the market.
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Old 05-26-2023, 01:15 PM   #706
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What a strange test... run it down to 10% SOC charge for 15mins, charging while the AC is running, see how long it takes to get back to 10% SOC at 80mph.

Far too many variables to make this a useful dataset. I'm not defending the BZ4X/Solterra, I would not recommend them to anyone, but that is just a funky test with the current crop of EV's on the market.
Not really. On a road trip you would drive the car until around 10%, then you would want to get back on the road as fast a possible. You are typically sitting inside the car while charging (A/C on), then see how far you can drive at 80 mph (typical cruising speed) until your next charge session (10%).

That is a very real world scenario.
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Old 05-26-2023, 01:44 PM   #707
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Not really. On a road trip you would drive the car until around 10%, then you would want to get back on the road as fast a possible. You are typically sitting inside the car while charging (A/C on), then see how far you can drive at 80 mph (typical cruising speed) until your next charge session (10%).

That is a very real world scenario.
80mph "typical"? Geez. Just like ICE, I won't go above 70mph unless it's the speed limit like Texas(and I'm sure other places. Is there an "80" limit anywhere?). Anything above 70mph and the mpg starts taking a nose dive. Seems to run true with EVs then, I guess. No matter what EV I would use for a trip(and also not defending the Toyota's), I would not be going that fast to run down the charge faster. I'll still get there. Unless it's a LONG trip, going faster really doesn't do anything for you except use your fuel more...whatever it is. You really have to get somewhere 30s-90s faster? Nah.
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Old 05-26-2023, 02:01 PM   #708
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Not really. On a road trip you would drive the car until around 10%, then you would want to get back on the road as fast a possible. You are typically sitting inside the car while charging (A/C on), then see how far you can drive at 80 mph (typical cruising speed) until your next charge session (10%).

That is a very real world scenario.
Not with the current crop of EV's on the market, not to mention the current charging infrastructure (availability & reliability); a road trip in an EV means extended stops, the majority of the current chargers are near some kind of restaurant, at least in New England. EV's are not at the "gas and go" state that ICE vehicles are, it requires a shift in how you road-trip. Plan stops around meal times so you can get a useable amount of electricity and minimize the amount of stops, otherwise you're wasting time getting on/off the freeway for a 15minute charge.

Do you leave your ICE car on with the AC running when you get gas? I sure don't.

I also don't do 80mph on the highway, I set the cruise at 5-9 over, especially when I'm out of my home state, the only place where I approach 80 as a cruising speed is in Northern NH where they have 70mph speed limits.

Road tripping in a current EV requires route & stop planning around available charging infrastructure. Teslas assist with that, not sure about other makes though.
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Old 05-26-2023, 02:53 PM   #709
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80mph "typical"? Geez. Just like ICE, I won't go above 70mph unless it's the speed limit like Texas(and I'm sure other places. Is there an "80" limit anywhere?). Anything above 70mph and the mpg starts taking a nose dive. Seems to run true with EVs then, I guess. No matter what EV I would use for a trip(and also not defending the Toyota's), I would not be going that fast to run down the charge faster. I'll still get there. Unless it's a LONG trip, going faster really doesn't do anything for you except use your fuel more...whatever it is. You really have to get somewhere 30s-90s faster? Nah.
80 is pretty normal for the interstate highway system. We have 55-65 limits, and I stay closer to the limit with an EV, especially on a trip. But the YT guy lives in Colorado, and out west the speed limits are higher and he needs to travel farther.

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Not with the current crop of EV's on the market, not to mention the current charging infrastructure (availability & reliability); a road trip in an EV means extended stops, the majority of the current chargers are near some kind of restaurant, at least in New England. EV's are not at the "gas and go" state that ICE vehicles are, it requires a shift in how you road-trip. Plan stops around meal times so you can get a useable amount of electricity and minimize the amount of stops, otherwise you're wasting time getting on/off the freeway for a 15minute charge.

Do you leave your ICE car on with the AC running when you get gas? I sure don't.

I also don't do 80mph on the highway, I set the cruise at 5-9 over, especially when I'm out of my home state, the only place where I approach 80 as a cruising speed is in Northern NH where they have 70mph speed limits.

Road tripping in a current EV requires route & stop planning around available charging infrastructure. Teslas assist with that, not sure about other makes though.
So, you don't want to stay at one charger for a very long time. That is inefficient as the rate of charge slows drastically. You want to arrive with 10-15% SOC at each location, and only charge up to the SOC required to make it to the next stop (+ a buffer, if you want). You would not want to charge to 80% and then continue on with your trip.

Now, if you have planned a stop at a tourist site, visiting someone, or are having a sit down meal, then fine. You were never trying to minimize your route time. You intended to stop for an hour+. If you are trying to have the shortest trip possible, you would do as above (which is what the Tesla navigation tells you to do).

A/C would stay on while you sit in the car to charge. Most chargers are at random locations; a gas station, or something that may be closed. Even with a 15 min stop, you just sit there on your phone or watch the infotainment. You could go inside to Walmart, if that's your thing.

I am not advocating for 80 mph, but that is the norm. In Texas the speed limit is 70, so 80 is everyone. You live in New England, at 80 mph on the Mass Pike, you are still being passed. Even on I-84 or 95 the speeds are high. Obviously you will get better efficiency at 55 mph, and the navigation system for Tesla assumes you are doing the speed limit. Even 65 mph can hurt your range.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 05-26-2023 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 05-26-2023, 04:35 PM   #710
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I am not advocating for 80 mph, but that is the norm. In Texas the speed limit is 70, so 80 is everyone. You live in New England, at 80 mph on the Mass Pike, you are still being passed. Even on I-84 or 95 the speeds are high. Obviously you will get better efficiency at 55 mph, and the navigation system for Tesla assumes you are doing the speed limit. Even 65 mph can hurt your range.
Same in SoCal. Driving 80 in the fast line will get you tailgated and honked at (or worse). The limit is technically 65 but nobody follows that.
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:31 AM   #711
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Do you leave your ICE car on with the AC running when you get gas? I sure don't.
Ok, this one got a chuckle out of me and removes what shred of credibility you had in knowledge of/on the subject of EVs.

1) Pumping gas, a much more volatile substance, laws in many/most states say you must be in attendance by the nozzle at all time outside the car. Regardless of the weather, your attendance AND attention outside with the nozzle is required. EV? You're plugging something in with no spillage. You sit in the car.

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I also don't do 80mph on the highway, I set the cruise at 5-9 over, especially when I'm out of my home state, the only place where I approach 80 as a cruising speed is in Northern NH where they have 70mph speed limits.
I'm going to throw shade on this in CT. If you drive 95, 91, 84, 691, mass pike, you are not going only 5-9 over. You're going to get run over, even in the right most lane. Merrit? MAYBE. Sure, 78-79 isn't 80. But you're not doing 9 over in a 55 - most interstate through city speed limits.
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Old 05-30-2023, 03:08 PM   #712
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Ok, this one got a chuckle out of me and removes what shred of credibility you had in knowledge of/on the subject of EVs.

1) Pumping gas, a much more volatile substance, laws in many/most states say you must be in attendance by the nozzle at all time outside the car. Regardless of the weather, your attendance AND attention outside with the nozzle is required. EV? You're plugging something in with no spillage. You sit in the car.
It was to illustrate a point; I'm not stopping "just to charge" I'm planning my trips so when I do have to stop, I can get lunch/meal or have another activity planned while I charge, I'm not sitting in the car with my wife & kids for 15mins idle, we're doing something; route planning is key.

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I'm going to throw shade on this in CT. If you drive 95, 91, 84, 691, mass pike, you are not going only 5-9 over. You're going to get run over, even in the right most lane. Merrit? MAYBE. Sure, 78-79 isn't 80. But you're not doing 9 over in a 55 - most interstate through city speed limits.
Sorry bud, that's how I drive on highways - 5-9 over with cruise on, especially once I cross the border into Mass or New York, out of state plates are targeted, both of our vehicles are "pull me over red" to boot. I don't crack 70mph in my wifes PHEV to stretch the battery; the faster I drive that brick the faster the battery drains. The only time I was moving faster than traffic regularly was when I was on two wheels.

Back roads are a different story in the IS, I tend to have fun there, but in the PHEV I accelerate slowly, stay 5-9 over and maximize regen.

I'm not sonic the hedgehog, I don't just gotta go fast.
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Old 05-30-2023, 03:52 PM   #713
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Ok, this one got a chuckle out of me and removes what shred of credibility you had in knowledge of/on the subject of EVs.

1) Pumping gas, a much more volatile substance, laws in many/most states say you must be in attendance by the nozzle at all time outside the car. Regardless of the weather, your attendance AND attention outside with the nozzle is required. EV? You're plugging something in with no spillage. You sit in the car.

I'm going to throw shade on this in CT. If you drive 95, 91, 84, 691, mass pike, you are not going only 5-9 over. You're going to get run over, even in the right most lane. Merrit? MAYBE. Sure, 78-79 isn't 80. But you're not doing 9 over in a 55 - most interstate through city speed limits.
Over Easter I was visiting family in NY. On my way home to MA I decided to try just setting cruise to 70 and seeing how that goes. I took 95 most of the way and stayed mostly on the right lane except to pass slower cars. It can be a little intimidating with cars flying by you at times but for the most part was pretty relaxing. I also got much better mileage than I normally get in my WRX.
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Old 05-30-2023, 04:06 PM   #714
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Over Easter I was visiting family in NY. On my way home to MA I decided to try just setting cruise to 70 and seeing how that goes. I took 95 most of the way and stayed mostly on the right lane except to pass slower cars. It can be a little intimidating with cars flying by you at times but for the most part was pretty relaxing. I also got much better mileage than I normally get in my WRX.
It is totally do-able, it's just not everyone haha. So, to do a test around the expected speed of your average road-tripper (80 mph) is acceptable. Hell, at 80 in the passing lane on the Mass Pike, you are in the way.
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:15 PM   #715
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200 miles (thinking at the long-distance aim of the test in question), 80 mph vs 70 mph, you save 21 minutes by going faster. Not insignificant. Whatever, my time is worth the slightly worse mpg. I didn't buy an EV to eek out every mile, I bought it with the goal of reducing my dependency on gasoline, and for the better in-city drivability of an EV.
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:16 PM   #716
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I expect that if everyone would slow the **** down, they’d make better time overall. Less stabbing of the brakes and fewer erratic lane changes that cause accidents that stop traffic.


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Old 06-17-2023, 10:26 PM   #717
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seen one in my work parking lot. not terrible in person.
there was one at my costco parked out front as a display too
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Old 06-17-2023, 10:27 PM   #718
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seen one in my work parking lot. not terrible in person.
there was one at my costco parked out front as a display too
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Old 06-22-2023, 11:11 AM   #719
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I don't hate the look of it, but the recalls last year were kind of alarming. Wheels flying off and all that jazz
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Old 06-30-2023, 07:05 PM   #720
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I have only seen one or two in EV-crazed Colorado. I think there are better options out there for the money, but some people are swayed by their brand loyalty to Subaru or Toyota. As a second vehicle I can see this being a good for a person for anything but road trips.
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Old 08-29-2023, 04:27 PM   #721
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Flatirons did a decent Soltera versus Forester comparison in minor off roading situations.

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Old 08-29-2023, 07:38 PM   #722
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Flatirons did a decent Soltera versus Forester comparison in minor off roading situations.

http://youtu.be/z9PBzNk1RLo?
No surprise to me. I've been driving my Solterra for over 6 months now and have been very impressed. It is well known for its great on road driving manners. But the off road is surprisingly exceptional.


We have a rough cabin road, and previously drove it with a 2018 Crosstrek and with my son's 2009 Forester (with Bilstein suspension). The Crosstrek did pretty good over the rough stuff, but would easily bottom out over the big bumps and deeper pot holes. The Forester had a stiffer suspension, and wouldn't bottom out, but quite rough compared to the Crosstrek.


However, the Solterra is much better than both of them. Glides easily over the smaller bumps and wash board, and does not bottom out on the big ones (just gives you a good kick) even when heavily loaded. And it scampers up the steep hills and through the deep ruts with ease, with less fuss than the other two. So it is definitely the superior off-road vehicle in the Subaru line-up.


We have AT tires on all three, one over size on the sidewall. Solterra has 8.8" clearance while the Crosstrek and Forester have 9.2"


BTW, worst vehicles for this FSR road are the Wrangler Jeeps. The suspension is way too stiff, causing a lot of shake and rattle, and loss of traction on corners. As a pax, it is almost painful, with having to hang onto the front dash support to lean forward to avoid the abuse on your kidneys. Because of the solid axle suspension, you not only shake up and down, but also from side to side which is worse. Jeeps are really only good for rock crawling.
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Old 08-29-2023, 09:01 PM   #723
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That is good to know. Glad Subaru found a good use case to concentrate on with the Soltera. The limited range and looks are hurting sales.
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Old 08-29-2023, 10:44 PM   #724
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80mph "typical"? Geez. Just like ICE, I won't go above 70mph unless it's the speed limit like Texas(and I'm sure other places. Is there an "80" limit anywhere?). Anything above 70mph and the mpg starts taking a nose dive. Seems to run true with EVs then, I guess. No matter what EV I would use for a trip(and also not defending the Toyota's), I would not be going that fast to run down the charge faster. I'll still get there. Unless it's a LONG trip, going faster really doesn't do anything for you except use your fuel more...whatever it is. You really have to get somewhere 30s-90s faster? Nah.

Don't road trip through Ohio. If you aren't doing 10 over (I75N/S is 70 mph in many parts and 65 in others), you will get flattened.

Shoot, here lately, even with gas prices as they are, "20 Over is the new 10 Over". I think we skipped the "15 Over" phase, or it was really short.

Going 80 in these 70 mph areas, will not pass many folks; however, you will still get passed quite often.

I hate Ohio drivers and I have to use 75N/S daily for work and it is literally a "Death Race" of sorts. Ohio driver's are just plain dumb and have zero fast driving skill.

People doing 90+ through traffic is common.

I'm so glad that the state only has four letters in its name...because if the state had any more letters, I doubt they would be able to spell it; especially at the big state college.

GO FROGS!
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Old 08-30-2023, 12:07 AM   #725
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I don't hate the look of it, but the recalls last year were kind of alarming. Wheels flying off and all that jazz

Pretty sure there was no jazz. Just the potential.


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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
That is good to know. Glad Subaru found a good use case to concentrate on with the Soltera. The limited range and looks are hurting sales.



How is it hurting sales? You know their sales goals for it?
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