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Old 03-28-2023, 11:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
So, only Subaru is "marketing" it and not Toyota?


And I didn't say TSP+. Just TSP. And it wasn't long ago that Subaru had more than Toyota and Honda combined! That's not the case now; but, every model of Subaru gets at least TSP, whereas the other two don't. Impreza's position will likely change with the '24



And to correct one of my responses, I was off a percentage point. 96%, not 97% of the cars sold in the last 10 years are still on the road.



Edit. HA. Just saw your edit.

Yes, I can agree to that if you can agree that part of it was handled by the Subaru engineers. It's a bit more into it than that and I can't seem to put it to words what was told to us.
Yes, Subaru definitely sent engineers and used their influence. From what I hear it was very much a 50/50 development. The car is better for Subaru's involvement.
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Old 03-28-2023, 01:01 PM   #52
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A year ago Toyota said they were going to move on from the e-tnga, so... does it even matter that Subaru had a big hand in development if Toyota thinks they need to move on from it for future electric cars? Is Subaru even going to keep with it? The e-TNGA/e-SGP was based on the Toyota TNGA in the first place.
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Old 03-28-2023, 01:02 PM   #53
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A year ago Toyota said they were going to move on from the e-tnga, so... does it even matter that Subaru had a big hand in development if Toyota thinks they need to move on from it for future electric cars? Is Subaru even going to keep with it? The e-TNGA/e-SGP was based on the Toyota TNGA in the first place.
That's an interesting part of it with Subaru saying they'll have their own and building a dedicated manufacturing facility.
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Old 03-28-2023, 01:07 PM   #54
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I mean, every bit of experience they have will transfer to future projects, so as long as they carry knowledge and individuals over to the new team, it should help. I think Subaru and toyota jumped the gun saying that they created a universal chassis that will work moving forward for electric vehicles with how fast EV architecture has been changing. VW also said they're moving on from the first EV chassis they developed.
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Old 03-28-2023, 01:36 PM   #55
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Everyone is looking at Tesla in bewilderment. Simple, cost effective and efficient.

Toyota:

"Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art" said one Toyota executive. "It's unbelievable".

"We need a new platform designed as a blank sheet" said another. "It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy"
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Old 03-28-2023, 01:38 PM   #56
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That's an interesting part of it with Subaru saying they'll have their own and building a dedicated manufacturing facility.
I would love to see their plans, and progress. Who are the poaching for software and chemical expertise?
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Old 03-29-2023, 04:19 AM   #57
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Maybe is the STe just the STI version of the Solterra. Lexus has the RZ450e, the 230 kW version.
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Old 03-30-2023, 05:28 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Everyone is looking at Tesla in bewilderment. Simple, cost effective and efficient.

Toyota:

"Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art" said one Toyota executive. "It's unbelievable".
Yeah... not so much...



Many similar pics of this "factory-cobbled" LCC support in Tesla forums.
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Old 03-30-2023, 08:17 PM   #59
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Yeah... not so much...



Many similar pics of this "factory-cobbled" LCC support in Tesla forums.
Donít confuse Muskís crony capitalist management style with the actual engineering.
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Old 03-30-2023, 09:29 PM   #60
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Donít confuse Muskís crony capitalist management style with the actual engineering.
There are two reasons Toyota responded that way:
1.) Japanese culture; politeness/respect must be forefront
2.) They have been sleeping/holding on EV development; their EV propulsion tech is behind the industry at large, and significantly behind Tesla, whom the entire industry is lagging.

speculation/conjecture - Toyota knows they are behind from a technical/engineering standpoint, which is what's important when it comes to "hitting the numbers" on paper. As far as building a vehicle, Toyota is still years if not decades ahead of Tesla, I honestly don't think Tesla will ever hit Toyota levels of build quality & manufacturing efficiency. However, based on available data since the Model Y & 3 hit the market, it appears many people just DGAF about build quality, usability & reliability, which is throwing Toyota for a loop.

Kia/Hyundai are approaching, matching, and in some cases, exceeding Tesla range numbers at a price point in real world conditions, even though EPA numbers still put Tesla at the forefront, "real world" numbers vary drastically based on geographic location for Tesla, where Kia/Hyundai are more consistent (yes, while considering seasonal/geographical variations). Based on what I've read however, Tesla is still leading the way in efficiency on a mi/kWh basis, and likely will for ~5 years (again, by my estimates based on available information).

All of that to say, I won't buy a Tesla, because it's a Tesla; I won't put up with the crap build quality & crap interior design, and will not support Musk if I can avoid it. However, I'm not going to buy a Toyota/Subaru joint venture EV product that is 5-10 years behind GM & Nissan from an engineering standpoint, and 10-15 years behind a ****-box Tesla.

I'd love to go EV for my daily, but I'm going to keep driving my Lexus until there is something out there that can measure up to it.
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Old 03-30-2023, 09:45 PM   #61
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There are two reasons Toyota responded that way:
1.) Japanese culture; politeness/respect must be forefront
2.) They have been sleeping/holding on EV development; their EV propulsion tech is behind the industry at large, and significantly behind Tesla, whom the entire industry is lagging.

speculation/conjecture - Toyota knows they are behind from a technical/engineering standpoint, which is what's important when it comes to "hitting the numbers" on paper. As far as building a vehicle, Toyota is still years if not decades ahead of Tesla, I honestly don't think Tesla will ever hit Toyota levels of build quality & manufacturing efficiency. However, based on available data since the Model Y & 3 hit the market, it appears many people just DGAF about build quality, usability & reliability, which is throwing Toyota for a loop.

Kia/Hyundai are approaching, matching, and in some cases, exceeding Tesla range numbers at a price point in real world conditions, even though EPA numbers still put Tesla at the forefront, "real world" numbers vary drastically based on geographic location for Tesla, where Kia/Hyundai are more consistent (yes, while considering seasonal/geographical variations). Based on what I've read however, Tesla is still leading the way in efficiency on a mi/kWh basis, and likely will for ~5 years (again, by my estimates based on available information).

All of that to say, I won't buy a Tesla, because it's a Tesla; I won't put up with the crap build quality & crap interior design, and will not support Musk if I can avoid it. However, I'm not going to buy a Toyota/Subaru joint venture EV product that is 5-10 years behind GM & Nissan from an engineering standpoint, and 10-15 years behind a ****-box Tesla.

I'd love to go EV for my daily, but I'm going to keep driving my Lexus until there is something out there that can measure up to it.
From what Iíve read and heard in podcasts from Sandy Munro, who did the famous Tesla taredown, there is indeed sone ingenious engineering going on. So this praise is not just coming from Japanese who are trying to be polite. Granted, he also goes on to be bamboozled about the built quality and how simple this could be to improve by hiring people in the industry that can help with this aspect. But this leads to your point about Tesla cultists that simply donít give an F and accept it as it is. It also leads to both of our points about Muskís egregious style and itís reflected in this manner. I disagree that itís crap interior design, it fits the philosophy of the car itself. My wife has a Model Y and itís actually been a great car so far for her and her needs. I donít mind driving it from time to time either. But I can honestly say that I donít desire to own one as my personal car. At least for now. Maybe when I get older.
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Old 04-02-2023, 03:35 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Everyone is looking at Tesla in bewilderment. Simple, cost effective and efficient.

Toyota:

"Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art" said one Toyota executive. "It's unbelievable".

"We need a new platform designed as a blank sheet" said another. "It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy"
To be fair those quotes come from an unnamed executive, not to be confused with Toyota saying anything as a company in regards to Tesla. I own a Tesla so I'm not a hater here but this article is a big nothing burger based on pure conjecture.
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Old 04-02-2023, 04:12 PM   #63
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To be fair those quotes come from an unnamed executive, not to be confused with Toyota saying anything as a company in regards to Tesla. I own a Tesla so I'm not a hater here but this article is a big nothing burger based on pure conjecture.
Itís completely believable. Their casting system and packaging is better. Even Ford realized they had excess wiring in the MME.

ďWe didnít know when we designed these first three products, we didnít know that our wiring harness for Mach-E was 1.6 kilometers longer than it needed to be. We didnít know itís 70 pounds heavier and that thatís worth $300 of battery cost. We didnít know that we underinvested in braking technology to save on the battery sizeĒ (Farley).
https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/fo...ng-farley/amp/
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Old 04-03-2023, 10:26 AM   #64
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It's completely believable. Their casting system and packaging is better. Even Ford realized they had excess wiring in the MME.

"We didn't know when we designed these first three products, we didn't know that our wiring harness for Mach-E was 1.6 kilometers longer than it needed to be. We didn't know it's 70 pounds heavier and that that's worth $300 of battery cost. We didn't know that we underinvested in braking technology to save on the battery size" (Farley).
https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/fo...ng-farley/amp/
It's also completely not believable and comes down to what you want to believe. I'm pretty neutral as far as an owner of the product comes and I find it a little far fetched as EV's really aren't rocket science.
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Old 04-03-2023, 12:06 PM   #65
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It's also completely not believable and comes down to what you want to believe. I'm pretty neutral as far as an owner of the product comes and I find it a little far fetched as EV's really aren't rocket science.
It's not EV vs ICE thing, it's old thinking vs new. It's starting from zero, doing things differently, designing the factory for the product and not the other way around. Not relying on suppliers to do everything, and instead combining manufacturing/design/engineering into one vertically integrated model. This was a fairly new concept during my MBA days (~2014), and Tesla is at the forefront.

It's like cramming equipment forward of the firewall, instead of efficiently packaging and allowing a giant frunk. OEMs continue to take old world gas platform thinking, and apply it to EVs. That is inefficient.

The CEO of Ford (above) said they used 1.6 KM (nearly 1 mile!) of excess wiring in the MME.
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Old 04-12-2023, 03:07 PM   #66
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Moves like this are confusing to me. As a brand Subaru is moving more and more away from enthusiast stuff and being more focused on jacked up family haulers. That's a bummer to me, but as a business case makes perfect sense.

Why waste any time or money on this bastardization of a sub-brand? Every penny they spend on some dumb pseudo-peformance STe, is a penny that could be spent on making their core cars better.

Let's just assume they create a car that is as quick as a Model 3 Performance, I doubt they are going to be much cheaper, so why buy the Subaru? AWD is nothing special in electric cars, Subaru interiors aren't any better especially since they copied the same big dumb screen that Tesla started. Lord knows Subaru is not known for designing good looking cars. I just don't know what the driving force is behind a "performance" labeled EV from this company.

Now if STe is a hybrid like the Corvette ERay is, where the battery exists only performance, and the car comes with a manual, I'll take it all back.

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The thing is that a mild hybrid STI would be absolutely amazing; just run a 96-144V electrical system and a 50-100kW starter/alternator for instant torque at low RPMs, and keep running the FA24, the bulletproof six-speed manual and a small battery pack for torque/regen. It's not that hard to do that; Honda did it on their Civic hybrids back in 2005 and it worked remarkably well even with the five-speed stick and the NiMH batteries they had back then.

For reference, a 10kWhr pack with 28 cells in series (103.6V nominal) would cost about $1500-2000 or less to build and weigh about 80 pounds (the cells cost around $1k for the quantity needed for 1 battery pack) while being able to put out about 93kW continuous power (900 amps continuous); an Emrax 208 permanent magnet motor weighs about 30 pounds, is a little over 8" diameter and 4-5" thick, and can provide 150Nm of peak torque and 90Nm of continuous torque from 0rpm while costing about $4k-$5k for quantity 1, and the motor controller to drive the Emrax would probably be $2-3k for quantity 1.

When you consider the volume discounts Subaru could get on those parts if they were buying a few thousand cars' worth a year I could see them getting down to $6-7k BOM cost on the whole system, giving us an STe built that way staying under 4000lbs and $50k, becoming a 400-450hp car in stock form that gets 30-35 miles per gallon (and meaningfully longer brake pad intervals) with an fairly understressed engine, and still being fun as **** to drive. Like ****, if that were available now in VB form it would blow the Golf R and GR Corolla out of the water, and be a viable option for people who want truly fun cars well into the future.

Furthermore, a system like that would probably be fairly easy to carry over into most of their other models, and could be used to give the naturally aspirated FB-powertrain cars enough grunt to hold their own in traffic while boosting fuel efficiency into the high thirties/low forties. Like the new Prius makes 200hp, has AWD, and gets 57mpg; it should be entirely possible for Subaru to turn their core lineup into a range of light, fun, sporty mild hybrids that make 200ish combined hp, still have proper symmetrical AWD, and get 35-40mpg EPA. The STe would be the perfect halo car for that transition, and it would make a lot more sense than building a 4500-5000lb all-EV "performance" car that goes really fast in a straight line, gets like 1-200 miles of range as a daily, doesn't have a stick, and can't survive more than a few hot laps at a time.

Last edited by ARod1993; 04-12-2023 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-16-2023, 10:56 AM   #67
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The main thing Iím skeptical about on EVs is battery longevity.

Every single device Iíve owned with a Li-Ion battery has lost significant capacity after only a few years. Iím not convinced there has been enough research done on this. Iím going to hold off on spending 50k+ on a car until Iím satisfied that it wonít lose a noticeable amount of range after 3-5 years.

All of these threads Iíve seen online with Teslas are just the owners saying ďrange degradation isnít that noticeable.Ē But there isnít any hard data on this. Theyíre just going by the data on the screen, which is a bunch of BS. The majority of the owners live in California and areas without extreme hot/cold temps, hills, etc.

Iíll continue to sit on the fence with these things. Hopefully the gas WRX MCR will have painted bodywork.
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Old 04-16-2023, 12:27 PM   #68
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Plenty of 10 year old Teslas out there to analyze the battery degredation with.

And California has the most extreme weather of any state, with Death Valley hitting high 120's in the summer and not a hundred miles away the Sierra Mountains having 20+ feet of snow and negative temps in the winter. Car makers do testing here for a reason.
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Old 04-16-2023, 08:03 PM   #69
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double post
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Old 04-16-2023, 08:03 PM   #70
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Do you guys remember when the mule for this gen WRX was spotted, wasnít there a Model Y seen with it as perhaps a benchmark or something?

I just canít help but wonder what is in Subaruís mind as far as where an ev STI would fall within the EV market.

Would it be with a the goal of challenging Model Y performance but at a much cheaper price? Otherwise, if Subaru is planning on releasing this thing with similar price point I wonder whatís the selling point? Basically what is Subaruís purpose for the STe. Better performance than every EV except the Y Performance? Or equal to Y Performance at same or slightly less ( dealer markups will be hilarious). Just to figure out where this will stand out in the EV market. Because Subaru canít even get their current screens to work correctly and the Tesla infrastructure ****s on everyone elseís soÖ.performance and AWDÖTeslaís already got that down with range to bootÖ
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Old 04-17-2023, 01:59 PM   #71
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Do you guys remember when the mule for this gen WRX was spotted, wasn't there a Model Y seen with it as perhaps a benchmark or something?

I just can't help but wonder what is in Subaru's mind as far as where an ev STI would fall within the EV market.

Would it be with a the goal of challenging Model Y performance but at a much cheaper price? Otherwise, if Subaru is planning on releasing this thing with similar price point I wonder what's the selling point? Basically what is Subaru's purpose for the STe. Better performance than every EV except the Y Performance? Or equal to Y Performance at same or slightly less ( dealer markups will be hilarious). Just to figure out where this will stand out in the EV market. Because Subaru can't even get their current screens to work correctly and the Tesla infrastructure ****s on everyone else's so***8230;.performance and AWD***8230;Tesla's already got that down with range to boot***8230;
Model 3. It is very odd to benchmark a much slower WRX with the Model 3, unless that mule was actually an STI, or a much more powerful WRX.

VB WRX = 5.5 0-60
Model 3 = 3.x to 4.x 0-60

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Old 04-17-2023, 02:15 PM   #72
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Model 3. It is very odd to benchmark a much slower WRX with the Model 3, unless that mule was actually an STI, or a much more powerful WRX.

VB WRX = 5.5 0-60
Model 3 = 3.x to 4.x 0-60

Also makes me wonder if Subaru already had their mind made up about no STI for a while before the announcement and already in the works about an EV route. Even with an FA 24 STi (whatever that was if ever), I doubt that wouldíve even been up to par with those 0-60 model 3 figures. So yeah, begs the question what was that 3 doing there as a benchmark?
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Old 04-17-2023, 03:19 PM   #73
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Also makes me wonder if Subaru already had their mind made up about no STI for a while before the announcement and already in the works about an EV route. Even with an FA 24 STi (whatever that was if ever), I doubt that wouldíve even been up to par with those 0-60 model 3 figures. So yeah, begs the question what was that 3 doing there as a benchmark?
Pretty sure the "no STI" decision was a rapid one. Not one mulled over for a while. Doubt they woulda wasted more money getting it ready for production if there were doubts.
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Old 04-17-2023, 03:37 PM   #74
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Also makes me wonder if Subaru already had their mind made up about no STI for a while before the announcement and already in the works about an EV route. Even with an FA 24 STi (whatever that was if ever), I doubt that would've even been up to par with those 0-60 model 3 figures. So yeah, begs the question what was that 3 doing there as a benchmark?
Yea, it is all very fishy. I believe the STI announcement was unexpected. Perhaps a WRX tS will come out.

WRX STe is probably 5+ years away.
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Old 04-28-2023, 08:55 AM   #75
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The Solterra STe was launched yesterday in Germany. You van find pictures of it.
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