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Old 02-14-2018, 11:08 AM   #1301
ATMINSIDE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
Its a bit more complicated than that. Each ECU has areas of the ROM that can potentially be changed (if mapped) - that's what COBB, Ecutek, Epifan, etc tend to want to map out to give tuners flexibility in changing certain settings, fuel/timing/config maps.

Then, beyond that, there are a LOT of areas in each ROM that the tuners never touch, can't touch and do not want to touch (else boom!). Microcode, routines, subroutines, etc - think of this as actual logic that references (or doesn't the various maps the tuners can potentially change).

Sometimes the changes here are substantial enough that it forces COBB, Ecutek, Epifan, RomRaider, etc. to completely revise their mappings when their previous ones are all of a sudden no longer compatible or fully working (ROMs get expanded, map addresses change).

This happened with the first WQW58 reflashes from Subaru for the 2015 way back when.

I feel your pain re the vanilla CVT, its terrible (still better than Nissan's CVTs), the HT-CVT, Lineatronic found in the FXT, Legacy/Outback 3.6R and WRX, Levorg is great though.
So the process to update the actual microcode that Cobb can't touch would be to flash to your stock tune, have the dealer update your ECU, then flash an updated version of your tune which accommodates for the updated microcode... correct?
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:09 AM   #1302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
Its a bit more complicated than that. Each ECU has areas of the ROM that can potentially be changed (if mapped) - that's what COBB, Ecutek, Epifan, etc tend to want to map out to give tuners flexibility in changing certain settings, fuel/timing/config maps.

Then, beyond that, there are a LOT of areas in each ROM that the tuners never touch, can't touch and do not want to touch (else boom!). Microcode, routines, subroutines, etc - think of this as actual logic that references (or doesn't the various maps the tuners can potentially change).

Sometimes the changes here are substantial enough that it forces COBB, Ecutek, Epifan, RomRaider, etc. to completely revise their mappings when their previous ones are all of a sudden no longer compatible or fully working (ROMs get expanded, map addresses change).

This happened with the first WQW58 reflashes from Subaru for the 2015 way back when.

I feel your pain re the vanilla CVT, its terrible (still better than Nissan's CVTs), the HT-CVT, Lineatronic found in the FXT, Legacy/Outback 3.6R and WRX, Levorg is great though.
I get that, especially considering how much the ECU has to "oversee" as it runs. I guess I'm just curious what other things they updated besides the charging logic and the timing/knock prevention in the latest revision.

I wonder if COBB's latest OTS tunes are up to snuff with the lastest revs of PAK files.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:39 AM   #1303
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If the 'things' Subaru/Hitachi changed are in the defined areas of the ROM - it will be easy to spot and call out the diffs. If not, its anyone's guess and isn't going to be found.
I wouldn't worry about it.

Based on what I saw late last year, they (COBB) were not.
I don't know much about COBB so not sure what map revision's they're up to now for the 2015-2017s and if they worked the latest PAKs in. Someone should check.

If anyone is feeling adventurous - get latest PAK, try to re-marry AP, watch it complain
submit for definition to COBB, new revisions for everyone.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:41 AM   #1304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATMINSIDE View Post
So the process to update the actual microcode that Cobb can't touch would be to flash to your stock tune, have the dealer update your ECU, then flash an updated version of your tune which accommodates for the updated microcode... correct?
Correct. This has been the case going back to early 2000s model year Subarus.

This is true in the case of all OTS, e- or local pro-tunes, etc. all solutions: COBB, Ecutek, Epifan, etc.

Here is a taste of what usually happens:
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...&postcount=447

Last edited by Perscitus; 02-14-2018 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:21 PM   #1305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
Correct. This has been the case going back to early 2000s model year Subarus.

This is true in the case of all OTS, e- or local pro-tunes, etc. all solutions: COBB, Ecutek, Epifan, etc.

Here is a taste of what usually happens:
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...&postcount=447
Thanks, I thought it was, just wanted to double check
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:45 PM   #1306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
If the 'things' Subaru/Hitachi changed are in the defined areas of the ROM - it will be easy to spot and call out the diffs. If not, its anyone's guess and isn't going to be found.
I wouldn't worry about it.

Based on what I saw late last year, they (COBB) were not.
I don't know much about COBB so not sure what map revision's they're up to now for the 2015-2017s and if they worked the latest PAKs in. Someone should check.

If anyone is feeling adventurous - get latest PAK, try to re-marry AP, watch it complain
submit for definition to COBB, new revisions for everyone.
Dude. I like the way you think.

I'm glad that my car has been on the stock flash, that should take the headache out of it when I do eventually put an OTS in the car someday.

I just got a call from the dealer on lunch, they fixed the rear camera, but forgot to do the reflash. I guess they're "checking to see if the car is eligible" now and they're going to call me back. I even gave the guy the footnotes on what I expected, and left them with paperwork for the PAK, specifically asking for the new CID to be written down on the RO.

Sometimes I feel like I know more about wtf is going on than they do.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:14 AM   #1307
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Sometimes I feel like I know more about wtf is going on than they do.
Sadly and scary enough, you most likely do and it's far far too common.

The separate parent company, regional branches and factories and sub-contracted frenchise-like dealership/service/part shops most car manufacturers employ doesn't work, hasn't for decades. Except maybe to make money selling whatever and save some money by creating layers of yellow tape between those who know, those who do and the end users.

There arw no real incentives for the dealerships/service places to properly treat the cars and do the right thing while servicing them UNLESS big brother reimburses and at a decent rate (its like a twisted parody on the health system of insurance co's and providers).

Off-site training and other integration trips dont count, sorry. Just part of the sales job.

Zero incentives to learn, to become real master techs, with enthusiast level knowledge - not surprising given the current 4-5 year model cycles and planned obsolecense built into todays single-use cars. Overcomplicated mechanical and electrical systems, pathetic tools and documentation provided by HQ. All of that doesnt help.

If anything, given enough time - it makes the techs bitter and jaded and super indifferent to both John with his Stage 7 bugeye garage queen track toy and Rebecca with her bone stock 2018 WRX commuter car.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:47 AM   #1308
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Alright, I finally picked up my car last night. Very thankfully, the dealer I frequent is excellent about keeping up with requests and information.

"Old cal ID LF75200S, New cal ID LF75402S a455-288 upg48".

That confirms my suspicions that my car missed the most-recent update before it left the dealer back in April of 2015. Obviously the car has to go through it's "re-learn" cycle so I can't state how it drives just yet, but so far so good. I'll monitor battery voltage every once in a while and cross my fingers that the OE battery lasts a fair amount of time longer.

The car was flashed with an OTS map for a short period of time a little while ago, and then flashed back to stock. They either didn't notice or didn't care considering how long the car has been box stock and how well I keep the car.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:45 AM   #1309
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Good stuff -

Did they clearly link LF75402S to PAK 22765AG238?

If so, that would be definitive proof that the latest (and likely final) set of CALIDs for the 2015 USDM WRXs are:

LF75402S for the 6MT
LF75402T for the CVT

Now on to the 2016, 2017s:

2015 MT WRX - PAK 22765AG238 (May 2017) - CID/CALID LF75402S
2015 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AG248 (May 2017) - CID/CALID LF75402T

2016 MT WRX - PAK 22765AH613 (April 2017) - CID/CALID not confirmed
2016 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AH623 (April 2017) - CID/CALID not confirmed

2017 MT WRX - PAK 22765AK382 (April 2017) - CID/CALID LF79101P
2017 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AK392(April 2017) - CID/CALID LF79101Q ???

Last edited by Perscitus; 02-17-2018 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:55 AM   #1310
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i got my 2017 MT in late May, does that mean it already has this latest flash? even thought the pak release date was in july?

Last edited by anarekist; 02-15-2018 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:59 AM   #1311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
Good stuff -

Did they clearly link LF75402S to PAK 22765AG238?

If so, that would be definitive proof that the latest (and likely final) set of CALIDs for the 2015 USDM WRXs are:

LF75402S for the 6MT
LF75402T for the CVT

Now on to the 2016, 2017s:

2015 MT WRX - PAK 22765AG238 (May 2017) - CID/CALID LF75402S
2015 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AG248 (May 2017) - CID/CALID LF75402T

2016 MT WRX - PAK 22765AH613 (April 2017) - CID/CALID not confirmed
2016 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AH623 (April 2017) - CID/CALID not confirmed

2017 MT WRX - PAK 22765AK382 (April 2017) - CID/CALID not confirmed
2017 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AK392(April 2017) - CID/CALID not confirmed
I don't have a confirmation that the LF75402S was tied to PAK 22765AG238, other than knowing that I handed them the paperwork for the PAK and the Service Campaign WQW-58 when I requested it be done dropping it off. I would assume so... but it's dangerous to assume.

One thing I thought was odd, on the paperwork they stated that "this wasn't covered under warranty, but Subaru has covered it under goodwill to the customer". It's probably just a way for the service writers to avoid having to bill me for the 0.4 Hours of labor.

Either way, I'm a very happy customer. Even though they couldn't fix the backup camera, which is why I came in in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anarekist View Post
i got my 2017 MT in late May, does that mean it already has this latest flash? even thought the pak release date was in july?
I would say that it probably doesn't have the most current flash, but it probably has the one prior (LF75200S). It wouldn't hurt to ask the dealer to take a look at it the next time your car is in for a service or warranty work. Just go in there armed with information, and bring the correct page for your car printed out as proof of your request. I linked it in the above reply, just find your car and print it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:43 PM   #1312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGumina View Post
One thing I thought was odd, on the paperwork they stated that "this wasn't covered under warranty, but Subaru has covered it under goodwill to the customer". It's probably just a way for the service writers to avoid having to bill me for the 0.4 Hours of labor.
Exactly. I bet that's right. And its really pathetic they don't just have a default process to reflash all cars to the latest firmware if they come in (or unless the client explicitly says no when asked). Even the 0.4 hours of labor is generous.... literally take <5 minutes to pull up and apply the reflash using THEIR software (I've done it way too many times now).

ECU, TCU, EPB, BIU, Camera, Eyesight reflashes are released for a reason and usually its not a case of 'it it ain't broke...' so they should be applied pro-actively like OTA cell phone OS build or security patches, network equipment firmware updates, various device OS/security patches, BIOS/UEFI updates, etc.

This would also FORCE the 'tooners' and 'tooning suite providers' (like COBB, Ecutek, Epifan) to stay current instead of selling people toons and OTS maps based off of ancient ECU firmware revisions (lazy, lame, potentially dangerous).
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:13 PM   #1313
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Latest 2015-2017 USDM WRX reflashes (as of Jun-2017 and Jan-2018). No updates for 2018s yet.

2015 MT WRX - PAK 22765AG238 (built May 2017) - CID/CALID LF75402S
2015 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AG248 (built May 2017) - CID/CALID LF75402T

2016 MT WRX - PAK 22765AH613 (built Apr 2017) - CID/CALID unknown
2016 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AH623 (built Apr 2017) - CID/CALID unknown

2017 MT WRX - PAK 22765AK382 (built Apr 2017) - CID/CALID LF79101P
2017 CVT WRX - PAK 22765AK392 (built Apr 2017) - CID/CALID LF79101Q ?
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:00 AM   #1314
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Was at dealer today in Michigan for bad o2 sensor and they realized my ecm flash was 3 versions old. Car idle really good now and noticed way less misfires. Car is a 16' built in April of 15' has anyone else gone through this ?
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:14 AM   #1315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobiemiggy View Post
Was at dealer today in Michigan for bad o2 sensor and they realized my ecm flash was 3 versions old. Car idle really good now and noticed way less misfires. Car is a 16' built in April of 15' has anyone else gone through this ?
Thats great news. Did you get them to put down the before/after CID/CALIDs, and if not, can you get them to provide at least the after CID/CALID? 2016s info is all thats missing at this point in above list.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:26 PM   #1316
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Originally Posted by CGumina View Post

I would say that it probably doesn't have the most current flash, but it probably has the one prior (LF75200S). It wouldn't hurt to ask the dealer to take a look at it the next time your car is in for a service or warranty work. Just go in there armed with information, and bring the correct page for your car printed out as proof of your request. I linked it in the above reply, just find your car and print it.
cool thanks man, just called the dealer, waiting for them to call me back. will update


edit: kinda giving me the run around saying they dont do flashes unless there's an issue, told them im trying to do preventive maintenance, said she'd call back even though i had to call back the first time around..


edit2: so Sierra Subaru in Monrovia California hung up on me when i had to call back, cause they were not calling me back, so i called subaru of america and the rep told me that all 2017 have the latest flash update. maybe should have got more info from her, too bad i cant get my cid/calid. THEN sierra called me back and told me i'd have to bring it in for something for them to flash the ecu, basically have no idea what im talking about.

Last edited by anarekist; 02-21-2018 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:01 PM   #1317
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BS BS and more BS. 99% of these people don't know the products they sell and supposedly service (nothing new across most industries).

2017 have had at least 2 OE flash revisions

Reflash takes about 2 minutes (5 minutes tops) - guess the stealerships don't get their 0.4 or 0.5h labor paid out by SoA unless they come up with a good reason to perform 'ECM reprogramming'.

Tell those Darwin-award recipient runner-ups to bring up SSM III or IV's FlashWrite tool
Load up the Jul-2017 or Jan-2018 database file
Pull up PAK 22765AK382 and flash that to your 2017 USDM 6MT WRX
and confirm that post flash your CID/CALID becomes LF79101P

If this takes them more than 5 minutes, they're doing it wrong.

Last edited by Perscitus; 02-21-2018 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:05 PM   #1318
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I called my local dealer (Lee's Summit Subaru). He said he was aware of the charging flash, but they typically don't flash unless I have a related issue. I said they replaced the battery last month for low CCA. His response was to ask for the flash next time I came in for service. More to come then...
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Old 02-22-2018, 05:38 AM   #1319
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The way some dealers will make a fuss over 0.4 hours of labor is absolutely astounding. I feel bad for the rest of you guys.


Side note, I've put just under 200 miles on my car with the newest ECM flash. I don't know if it's because I haven't driven the car in the warm weather for a while, or if I'm crazy... but it appears that the newest rev adds a little more power by way of turning up the boost a little bit?

The other day, when it was 70*, I noticed the car was pulling like a goddamn freight train. I watched the boost gauge more closely, and it seemed like the newer target for boost was closer to 18-20lbs instead of the usual 16-17lbs, and felt a little bit "surgey". Normally, I wouldn't think anything of it- but yesterday, when it was closer to 30*, boost was now towards 15-16lbs whereas it's usually dialed back to something like 14lbs.

I finally remembered to grab my OBD2 dongle this morning so I can monitor the AFR on the way home tonight, just to be careful. I can't imagine it's something mechanical, but would they really change the tune that much?

Other than that, I'm tickled by the latest flash. The car drives better in every way, including the herky-jerky throttle input that appears to have been toned down to an acceptable level.
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:56 AM   #1320
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It sounds plausable. Might be as simple as tweaked compensation or a few turbo dynamics tables. Whoever defines these new CALIDs and can compare them to a previous revision could easily spot the map differences, but wont see the microcode updates which are likely also contributing.

Instead of a generic OBDII dongle and software, I would highly recommend you try BtSsm with either OBDLink LX, MX or Tactric OPv2.
This way you can monitor FLKC, IAM/DAM, AFRs, Fuel Learn/Correct #1 and #3, Total and Learned Timing, all types of Temps, etc.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:17 AM   #1321
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If anyone wants to read the actual bulletin from STIS, it is posted here: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/...r_06-27-17.pdf
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:21 AM   #1322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
Instead of a generic OBDII dongle and software, I would highly recommend you try BtSsm with either OBDLink LX, MX or Tactric OPv2.
This way you can monitor FLKC, IAM/DAM, AFRs, Fuel Learn/Correct #1 and #3, Total and Learned Timing, all types of Temps, etc.
Do you know if BtSsm will work with OBDLink SX USB? I have that hardwired to my Android headunit. I would be more than happy to pay for the app if i know it can connect via USB instead of bluetooth.

And does it definitely work with a 2015+ WRX? Its not listed on their app info or website as models it works with.

Thanks,

Last edited by alapilusa; 02-22-2018 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:55 AM   #1323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perscitus View Post
It sounds plausable. Might be as simple as tweaked compensation or a few turbo dynamics tables. Whoever defines these new CALIDs and can compare them to a previous revision could easily spot the map differences, but wont see the microcode updates which are likely also contributing.

Instead of a generic OBDII dongle and software, I would highly recommend you try BtSsm with either OBDLink LX, MX or Tactric OPv2.
This way you can monitor FLKC, IAM/DAM, AFRs, Fuel Learn/Correct #1 and #3, Total and Learned Timing, all types of Temps, etc.
I thought it might be possible that they revised some stuff, but I guess I'm just a hair on the cautious side. I left a light fairly aggressively the other day and was shocked at all the afterfire I heard shifting from the 1-2 and 2-3 shift. Then I monitored the boost gauge more closely and saw it was bouncing between 18-20.5lbs and it made sense. I'll keep an eye on things just to be sure. Like I said, I'm happy as hell that the car runs this much better, but I just want to make sure it isn't some kind of mechanical fault or something stupid.

I would definitely use the hardware/software you mentioned... if it wasn't a $115 investment. I have an Accessport, I'll likely end up installing it and flashing the car at some point.

Now you have me thinking- is the latest Stage 0 on COBB's list the latest revision with better throttle mapping, or is it the old PAK?
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:43 AM   #1324
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I just emailed COBB to see what PAK file/Cal ID their current v301/v302 maps are based off of. Basing them solely off of the dates both were released, I'm pretty sure that the current revisions available do not reflect the improved charging logic and/or microcode that's been updated by Subaru. Kind of a little disheartening, but hopefully I can get an answer if they're going to do a new rev soon.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:59 PM   #1325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGumina View Post
I just emailed COBB to see what PAK file/Cal ID their current v301/v302 maps are based off of. Basing them solely off of the dates both were released, I'm pretty sure that the current revisions available do not reflect the improved charging logic and/or microcode that's been updated by Subaru. Kind of a little disheartening, but hopefully I can get an answer if they're going to do a new rev soon.
Yup, we talked about that here on in another thread. Its very very unlikely that the latest COBB maps for 2015/16/17s are based off of the latest PAKs and associated CID/CALIDs. But it should be fairly easy for them to add support and update their maps to reflect the same. It will just take people who want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alapilusa View Post
Do you know if BtSsm will work with OBDLink SX USB? I have that hardwired to my Android headunit. I would be more than happy to pay for the app if i know it can connect via USB instead of bluetooth. And does it definitely work with a 2015+ WRX? Its not listed on their app info or website as models it works with. Thanks,
Not sure about OBDLink SX USB. It may or may not work, or or maybe fairly easy for the developer to add support since he's got a few wireless and wired dongles supported already. Can OBBLink SX USB do SSM-over-CAN?

In terms of 2015s+ yup, works perfectly fine. I'm the main tester for the app the the reason Hitachi-ECUs/TCUs are supported in the first place.

old video but just to give you a sense:
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