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Old 08-05-2019, 01:20 PM   #51
Sid03SVT
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
I think you must realize he's saying the CVT isn't a real transmission. It's probably more fair to say a non-cheap transmission as CVT's are cheap, cheap, cheap.
just like a torsion beam rear suspension; cheap, cheap, cheap.
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:26 PM   #52
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The only advantages of a torsion beam rear over any IRS system are cost and packaging; there are numerous disadvantages however: a torsion beam will handle worse, be more jarring over broken pavement, and make the weight distribution in an FF even worse (aka more nose heavy).

Even in something that is only going to be a "commuter car", especially when you consider the asking price of the Mazda3, a torsion beam is a slap to the face of anyone who has any idea of what suspension does in a car.

Everyone was lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks when Ford refused to move from a LRA to an IRS in the non-cobra mustang until 2015, now Mazda moves back to a torsion beam and gets praise for it when it was only done as a cost cutting measure.

If Mazda is indeed the automotive enthusiasts brand that it's touted as, BMW must still make the ultimate driving machine.

I too have low hopes for the next get WRX/STi; it's not what the majority of the market wants; very few people actually want to drive anymore, the WRX will get more carolla-esque, they already put a e-parking brake in place of the handbrake which is a huge step in the wrong direction, the STi will probably just linger on with special editions.

FA24 on the SGP with the existing STi drive train would be great, but very unlikely.
I'm not going to argue that I like the torsion beam, nor do I think it's a good thing to go backwards in suspension design. I'm just saying that I can see where they were coming from with their excuses. The price was clearly increased by a lot, and they had to cut costs somewhere while making the other changes. Since reviews have not noticed any issues with the new suspension, I doubt it's going to make a difference for the casual driving they'll most likely experience.

IF they make a turbo or higher performance version, they absolutely need to revise that. Zero excuses then, but once again the platform is shared so it's not like they can't add it back in. Every other car on that platform has IRS so it's clearly not something they can't replace.

I just feel like they had to make concessions somewhere and that was unfortunately the place where it came from. They're even smaller and less funded than Subaru, and considering the products they put out, it's downright impressive. I personally want a Skyactiv-X powered car, that sounds like a really cool motor, but sadly that's not even available yet.
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:34 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
The only advantages of a torsion beam rear over any IRS system are cost and packaging; there are numerous disadvantages however: a torsion beam will handle worse, be more jarring over broken pavement, and make the weight distribution in an FF even worse (aka more nose heavy).

Even in something that is only going to be a "commuter car", especially when you consider the asking price of the Mazda3, a torsion beam is a slap to the face of anyone who has any idea of what suspension does in a car.

Everyone was lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks when Ford refused to move from a LRA to an IRS in the non-cobra mustang until 2015, now Mazda moves back to a torsion beam and gets praise for it when it was only done as a cost cutting measure.

If Mazda is indeed the automotive enthusiasts brand that it's touted as, BMW must still make the ultimate driving machine.

I too have low hopes for the next get WRX/STi; it's not what the majority of the market wants; very few people actually want to drive anymore, the WRX will get more carolla-esque, they already put a e-parking brake in place of the handbrake which is a huge step in the wrong direction, the STi will probably just linger on with special editions.

FA24 on the SGP with the existing STi drive train would be great, but very unlikely.
I wouldn't say Mazda has received praise for switching to a torsion beam rear. Plenty have been vocal on its switch. Most reviews have noted that they did a good job tuning it and isolating it from the cabin for most everyday driving. Also, many reviews have noted the new 3 is not as sharp as the old but still plenty good. However, I can't say I read any reviews that said they prefer the new suspension over the old either. Yes, I believe it was done as a cost cutting measure.

What is puzzling is that Mazda wants to be a premium brand. Premium usually means a level of quality in ride. Is there a premium brand that still uses torsion beam? I mean, this is a company that makes a dedicated platform for the Miata that uses double wishbone set up.

Back to the WRX. It's worth noting the e-parking brake as shown on the global site is in a CVT equipped WRX. The e-parking brake already exists in the JDM WRX S4, Levorg, which are both CVT only, and the Australian WRX with CVT. So this is nothing new.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:00 PM   #54
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These cars are rocking 2008 EVO X angular styling that's well over a decade old. This is the only forum where you will hear people think these cars still look current trust me.
I usually don't wade into the pointless waters of styling discussion/argument, but I agree with his sentiment that the standards of what "looks current" are set by some pretty suspect vehicles these days. The WRX does look basic, and I kinda prefer it to anything that looks like it might transform into a humanoid robot and jump into battle in neo-tokyo.

Based on what we saw of the Viziv STI concept, Subaru's stylists appear to have caught the same terminal illness that led Honda to create the Type R, which might be good or bad depending on your love of mecha-armor.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:11 PM   #55
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The reviews I've seen comparing the Impreza vs the Mazda 3 don't really favor one over the other. There is a note that the Mazda performs about the same as the Impreza, yet the Mazda engine sounds more annoying trying to get wrung out. The torsion beam can stay in the commuter car, I'm fine with that. I just don't think it belongs in a turbo Mazda 3 AWD.

I've learned that trying to expect "performance" from a commuter is futile. All that can be done is for the manufacturer to make it as appealing as possible while making it as affordable as possible.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:14 PM   #56
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This has been said before and it's worth saying again, over the years, there has been a few very good "hot hatches" with torsion beams (I'm talking around the world, not USDM specific).
My favorite example is the Mégane RS: it has been using a torsion beam and passive dampers for the past 15 model years.
It went from 225hp to 296hp, still uses a torsion beam and it's still one of the best driver's car out there.
Is it ideal? Nope. But it certainly works when it's setup properly; and, yeah, even on ****ty pavement.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:18 PM   #57
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The reviews I've seen comparing the Impreza vs the Mazda 3 don't really favor one over the other. There is a note that the Mazda performs about the same as the Impreza, yet the Mazda engine sounds more annoying trying to get wrung out. The torsion beam can stay in the commuter car, I'm fine with that. I just don't think it belongs in a turbo Mazda 3 AWD.

I've learned that trying to expect "performance" from a commuter is futile. All that can be done is for the manufacturer to make it as appealing as possible while making it as affordable as possible.
The only metric that matters to me would be the transmission choice, and since the Mazda3 AWD has a 6spd automatic and not some crappy CVT, it wins the segment by default. I just don't like the way CVTs feel and after putting 30k+ miles on one in my last work car, I do not want to experience that with a personal car ever in my lifetime if I am able to.
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Old 08-05-2019, 04:21 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
This has been said before and it's worth saying again, over the years, there has been a few very good "hot hatches" with torsion beams (I'm talking around the world, not USDM specific).
My favorite example is the Mégane RS: it has been using a torsion beam and passive dampers for the past 15 model years.
It went from 225hp to 296hp, still uses a torsion beam and it's still one of the best driver's car out there.
Is it ideal? Nope. But it certainly works when it's setup properly; and, yeah, even on ****ty pavement.
True, there have been some good torsion beam cars, so there's indeed hope. The Megane RS also has been upgraded to have 4 wheel steer, dual axis front struts, and hydraulic bump stops. Renault has definitely tried to make upgrades to that set up.

As it stands, Mazda's torsion beam isn't that. They have done a good job to maybe make it equal to the old multi link set up.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:58 PM   #59
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That's good to know, thanks. I used to live in SE Michigan and there were cars (big 3 and import) all over the road that were years away from release. Subaru seems pretty unique in its secrecy.
A huge part of that secrecy comes from the well known fact that Subaru uses mules that look exactly like normal, everyday current models when new tech or redesigns are being tested. Heck, I'm sure Subaru can use a body style from something made in 2002 as a test mule and most people won't notice it.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:47 PM   #60
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A huge part of that secrecy comes from the well known fact that Subaru uses mules that look exactly like normal, everyday current models when new tech or redesigns are being tested. Heck, I'm sure Subaru can use a body style from something made in 2002 as a test mule and most people won't notice it.
This ^^^. Only when close to production will you start seeing camoed cars. Subaru has been known to be stealthy working on engineering mules.

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Old 08-05-2019, 10:47 PM   #61
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These cars are rocking 2008 EVO X angular styling that's well over a decade old. This is the only forum where you will hear people think these cars still look current trust me.
I'm certainly not the one to ask about "current" design; but, it's a design I like. Still.
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:13 PM   #62
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I like it too. I love the current STI, I just cannot do the EJ again. Nope and nope.
I will miss the hydraulic, quick ratio steering as it will go bye with the EJ, but I’d rather e-assist quick ratio if it gets us a 330ft/lb STI-tuned FA24DIT with a ridiculous mod ceiling.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:16 AM   #63
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Having just attended the Big NW meet this weekend and seeing a crap ton of '15+ WRX/STIs, I was actually quite excited when the lone Evo X drove by. Definitely better executed cohesive design. Headlights and taillights better looking. Why the blob taillights Subaru? Why? Rear bumper diffuser exhaust area nicely broken up. Fenders not comically bulging.

If the Evo X never existed I wouldn't know the difference and think the '15s are totally fine. lol
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:52 AM   #64
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^^ Yep, still love seeing EvoXs on the road. Truly ahead of their time.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:10 AM   #65
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No one is going to dispute that the EvoX was a great car. It was... was being the operative word.

I also don't think anyone will argue that the '05 LGT wasn't a beautiful car. Again, it was.

And I'll be the first to agree that the bulk of a later designs, including Subarus, haven't found a way to inspire the same gut feelings that those two cars did.

But. This week I traded a more-than perfect '17 FXTT for a new Subaru that, to me, has a certain something that I wasn't prepared for. It makes me sit and look at it. Makes me WANT to polish it, even if I just did it yesterday, or this morning before my ride. Already replaced the interior lights with LEDs and personalized this and that.

I washed the FXTT twice in three years. The rain took care of it. Wiped the hood and hatch down once in a while, but other than the two washes in the first two years (once each) I never touched it. Never really vacuumed it out, just picked the obvious things up on the floors. I'd given up the fanaticism after my '11 STi went.

The car I got for the FXT is a new '19 Impreza Wagon in Crystal White Pearl with Ivory leather. Inside and out it's amazing in its refinement and detail. But it wasn't until I drove it that the other parts of me were blown away... it handles better than any other car I've owned out of the box.

So to me, were a new WRX or STi modeled after the same design language it would be an absolute winner.

Carry on your bashing of Subaru. Just don't think everyone agrees.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:30 AM   #66
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No one is going to dispute that the EvoX was a great car. It was... was being the operative word.

I also don't think anyone will argue that the '05 LGT wasn't a beautiful car. Again, it was.

And I'll be the first to agree that the bulk of a later designs, including Subarus, haven't found a way to inspire the same gut feelings that those two cars did.

But. This week I traded a more-than perfect '17 FXTT for a new Subaru that, to me, has a certain something that I wasn't prepared for. It makes me sit and look at it. Makes me WANT to polish it, even if I just did it yesterday, or this morning before my ride. Already replaced the interior lights with LEDs and personalized this and that.

I washed the FXTT twice in three years. The rain took care of it. Wiped the hood and hatch down once in a while, but other than the two washes in the first two years (once each) I never touched it. Never really vacuumed it out, just picked the obvious things up on the floors. I'd given up the fanaticism after my '11 STi went.

The car I got for the FXT is a new '19 Impreza Wagon in Crystal White Pearl with Ivory leather. Inside and out it's amazing in its refinement and detail. But it wasn't until I drove it that the other parts of me were blown away... it handles better than any other car I've owned out of the box.

So to me, were a new WRX or STi modeled after the same design language it would be an absolute winner.

Carry on your bashing of Subaru. Just don't think everyone agrees.
When did they start making wagons again?
(that's a joke, because it's a hatchback, not a wagon)

I like the look of the SGP Impreza, and a WRX & STi on that platform would be great; fender flares, FA20wrx & FA24STi, WAGON (but I'll settle for a hatch), mechanical diffs, the fun colors (sunrise yellow, tangerine orange, hyperblue, pure red)..... not holding my breath.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:21 AM   #67
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EJ in STi. Let's count the model years now.

2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020

Laughable. No need to change if suckers keep buying and do not demand a new product.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
No one is going to dispute that the EvoX was a great car. It was... was being the operative word.

I also don't think anyone will argue that the '05 LGT wasn't a beautiful car. Again, it was.

And I'll be the first to agree that the bulk of a later designs, including Subarus, haven't found a way to inspire the same gut feelings that those two cars did.

But. This week I traded a more-than perfect '17 FXTT for a new Subaru that, to me, has a certain something that I wasn't prepared for. It makes me sit and look at it. Makes me WANT to polish it, even if I just did it yesterday, or this morning before my ride. Already replaced the interior lights with LEDs and personalized this and that.

I washed the FXTT twice in three years. The rain took care of it. Wiped the hood and hatch down once in a while, but other than the two washes in the first two years (once each) I never touched it. Never really vacuumed it out, just picked the obvious things up on the floors. I'd given up the fanaticism after my '11 STi went.

The car I got for the FXT is a new '19 Impreza Wagon in Crystal White Pearl with Ivory leather. Inside and out it's amazing in its refinement and detail. But it wasn't until I drove it that the other parts of me were blown away... it handles better than any other car I've owned out of the box.

So to me, were a new WRX or STi modeled after the same design language it would be an absolute winner.

Carry on your bashing of Subaru. Just don't think everyone agrees.
I agree with the above. I have the '17, and the design is almost right, it's proportional, not too rounded/bulbous, and arguably the best interior on any "cheap" car today. Just.. yeah, don't call it a wagon, because it isn't.

"The roofline must extend past the passenger seating area and continue on, unbroken, to cover at least 50% of the area of the rear cargo floor."

The roof only goes about 25-35% over the hatch floor, then you have the hatch door.

--kC
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
EJ in STi. Let's count the model years now.

2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020

Laughable. No need to change if suckers keep buying and do not demand a new product.
That's only the USA, don't forget that the turbocharged EJ has been used in Japan since 1992...so add another 12 years to that. All while making about 300hp.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:08 PM   #70
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That's only the USA, don't forget that the turbocharged EJ has been used in Japan since 1992...so add another 12 years to that. All while making about 300hp.
having owned a 92 impreza, that car would be an experience, to say the least, with 300hp.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
When did they start making wagons again?
(that's a joke, because it's a hatchback, not a wagon)

I like the look of the SGP Impreza, and a WRX & STi on that platform would be great; fender flares, FA20wrx & FA24STi, WAGON (but I'll settle for a hatch), mechanical diffs, the fun colors (sunrise yellow, tangerine orange, hyperblue, pure red)..... not holding my breath.
While most literature calls it a 5 door or a hatchback, I've read a Subaru TSB in which it calls it a Wagon. Whatever, as you say, it's nice. Mine BTW is a Limited, so I'm basing my impressions on that.

Reading the "official" definition:

Quote:
A hatchback is a car with a two- or four-door body configuration and a sloping back with a hinged rear cargo hatch that opens upward. ... One way to differentiate a hatchback from a wagon is to see if its roof line suddenly dips past the doors. If it does, it's a hatchback.
It leaves the door open to how the individual interprets it. To me, it's a wagon. You see it as a hatchback. Various websites list it as all three. Subaru, in fact, refers to it by all three, depending. But while the defining roofline is lower "past the doors", it's the result of a continuation of a roofline that slopes at an angle from the front to the back... but does NOT "suddenly dip" anywhere.

It was the '92 jewel that made Subaru a certainty in my life forward. It was the top Legacy, a wagon, and after a long line of America's "luxury" cars it blew them away.

My current one is similarly inspiring to me. But while I join everyone else saying more hp would be nice, it hasn't been needed despite my already testing that on some of our steepest interstate grades. It quietly did as bid. Contrasting the hp convo, in the short time I've had it its great gas mileage on regular (my first use) for a welcome change, is not ambiguous.

I'm optimistic about Subaru's future, where I have been negative for a long time.

These people agree. https://www.consumerreports.org/impr...-drive-review/
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:44 PM   #72
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I like it too. I love the current STI, I just cannot do the EJ again. Nope and nope.
I will miss the hydraulic, quick ratio steering as it will go bye with the EJ, but I’d rather e-assist quick ratio if it gets us a 330ft/lb STI-tuned FA24DIT with a ridiculous mod ceiling.
if they have those forged pistons, on top of at 330ft/lbs of torque, then modding will result in longer lasting builds and more reliable increases in power

Last edited by bugatti0628; 08-06-2019 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:58 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
I agree with the above. I have the '17, and the design is almost right, it's proportional, not too rounded/bulbous, and arguably the best interior on any "cheap" car today. Just.. yeah, don't call it a wagon, because it isn't.

"The roofline must extend past the passenger seating area and continue on, unbroken, to cover at least 50% of the area of the rear cargo floor."

The roof only goes about 25-35% over the hatch floor, then you have the hatch door.

--kC
Seems we all might be correct. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_wagon
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:04 PM   #74
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I'm barely 5' 8" and mostly torso. I tried sitting in the back of my 17 Impreza. Legs crossed. It's impossible to sit in it straight up. I found myself sorely missing my 08 Forester.

That's how I know the difference between hatch and wagon: Can I sit straight up in it? No? Hunched back hatchback. Yes? Swaggin' wagon.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:19 PM   #75
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Well then....i was definitely hoping for a new STi next year as im getting a little tired of my 2015 wrx. I think i will buy a Civic Si today and play with that until the new STi comes out.
This information was revealed many months ago it was going to be the same car. With that said, I was tired with my 2015 wrx and traded it in for something temporary a few weeks ago and leased a 2019 Accord 2.0T w/ 6speed. Its actually super roomy, all the tech and is cheaper than trading in my car for a new sti or newer wrx..needed a break from the same old..

Worth checking out honda, the 1.5T SI is fairly quick with a hondata tune and intake.
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